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dan
AOL
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well i quess they cant just keep losing money right
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dan
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WRONG
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JetBlast
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If they're able to reduce capacity/competition on certain routes, therefore charging a fare that actually meets or exceeds costs, then they CAN make money.
Sell overlapping routes, excess gates/planes, streamline the fleet and (most importantly) try to make some labor peace.
CLOSE the PHL hub and beef up CLT. Make the 'new' Delta sweat a bit. UA gets a presence in the Southeast/FL and the whole aviation industry gets some delay relief by reducing PHL to traffic levels that the airport can actually support.
United needs to make this merger work because all potential merger partners are gone if this one slips away. If USAir is open to the merger then it's obvious that the AWE deal didn't do as much for them as they were hoping. Not sure if this will make them any happier bt who knows. It will be interesting to watch (from a distance)
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ivana
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JetBlast wrote: If they're able to reduce capacity/competition on certain routes, therefore charging a fare that actually meets or exceeds costs, then they CAN make money.
Sell overlapping routes, excess gates/planes, streamline the fleet and (most importantly) try to make some labor peace.
CLOSE the PHL hub and beef up CLT. Make the 'new' Delta sweat a bit. UA gets a presence in the Southeast/FL and the whole aviation industry gets some delay relief by reducing PHL to traffic levels that the airport can actually support.
United needs to make this merger work because all potential merger partners are gone if this one slips away. If USAir is open to the merger then it's obvious that the AWE deal didn't do as much for them as they were hoping. Not sure if this will make them any happier bt who knows. It will be interesting to watch (from a distance) But JetBlat, how can they close any Hub if they are going to seek merger approval. The Politicans and Public want cheap fares and no job cuts.... how can a merged UA/US survive with 120$ fuel ? It defies commonsense but that would be too much to ask of anyone these days. Tilton and CO are taking UA to Liquidation, all in the name of Merger. He just does not have the will to run this airline. And he is getting ample help from UA Pilots. The Pilot group is the only one that can extract some concessions and they seem to be on the wrong course. God help UA. It would have been nice to see them strong since I live in the city where they have considerable strength
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JetBlast
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PHL would probably have to be drawn down due to it's locale to IAD. UA could not have hubs that close and PHL has congestion issues that also impact the entire NE corridor traffic flow. The govt. should be happy that congestion in the NE would be reduced.
The public isn't very smart as you probably know and ridding the industry of cut-throat competition makes the survivors stronger. UA is not going to liquidate and Tilton did make some very bone-headed moves with the company and employees.
United could survive on their own with their Int'l traffic support. Domestically, they're not strong because the Clampetts buy domestic tickets based on price and then bitch about the lack of service when they get to the airport. The merger consolidates domestic traffic/competition and helps funnel even more of the domestic market to the Int'l fleet.
Any airline can survive with $120/barrel fuel if they price their product to meet their costs. Every other industry does. If ticket prices force the Clampetts to drive or take the (subsidized) train, the low-fare carriers will take the biggest hit. The business passenger will still need to travel and the tables will turn again.
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Rudy
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JetBlast wrote: PHL would probably have to be drawn down due to it's locale to IAD. UA could not have hubs that close and PHL has congestion issues that also impact the entire NE corridor traffic flow. The govt. should be happy that congestion in the NE would be reduced.
The public isn't very smart as you probably know and ridding the industry of cut-throat competition makes the survivors stronger. UA is not going to liquidate and Tilton did make some very bone-headed moves with the company and employees.
United could survive on their own with their Int'l traffic support. Domestically, they're not strong because the Clampetts buy domestic tickets based on price and then bitch about the lack of service when they get to the airport. The merger consolidates domestic traffic/competition and helps funnel even more of the domestic market to the Int'l fleet.
Any airline can survive with $120/barrel fuel if they price their product to meet their costs. Every other industry does. If ticket prices force the Clampetts to drive or take the (subsidized) train, the low-fare carriers will take the biggest hit. The business passenger will still need to travel and the tables will turn again. In the mean time, your talking tens of thousands of people loosing their jobs. Tilton should be held criminally liable. He will walk with tens of millions of dollars. He and his cohorts have been setting the company up to sell to the highest bidder since he came in. The labor trouble at the combined USair/UAL will make every other merger look like a walk in the park. Good luck guys and girls, your gonna need it.
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JetBlast
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Every merger involves job cuts sorry to say. That's a result of reducing capacity...reducing everything else including jobs, planes, costs etc. I didn't say I supported cutting jobs but that goes with the territory.
Tilton is a jerk but that's an issue to take up with the Board. I was only commenting on the operational side of the proposed merger.
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Dave-O
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Mergers are very expensive and the only way to make them pay is to make massive cuts. If this merger follows the general rule, 15% of the employees will be furloughed and hubs will be downsized or closed.
Consider TWA/AA and St.Louis or US/AW and Pittsburgh. Or farther back, CO/TX and LAX and ELP bases.
Sorry to say, but if you are in the bottom 10% you had better be looking for new employment.
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Prospective Pax
AOL
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Dave-O wrote: Mergers are very expensive and the only way to make them pay is to make massive cuts. If this merger follows the general rule, 15% of the employees will be furloughed and hubs will be downsized or closed.
Consider TWA/AA and St.Louis or US/AW and Pittsburgh. Or farther back, CO/TX and LAX and ELP bases.
Sorry to say, but if you are in the bottom 10% you had better be looking for new employment. TWA / AA excellent example.
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ivana
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JETBLAT,good post but I dont agree with you. UA could have made it as stand alone. It has the right size and scope, but lacks the managerial skills. It already has a code share with US so knows the kind of feed to expect to its international flights. Other than that what does US bring..... shattered service reputation that will likely drag even UA's bruised one. It hardly seems like a prize. More of an after thought having been spurned both by DL and CO. Makes you ask,If it was such a prize why UA was turned down. Of course mergers are messy, and employees are the biggest Loosers. I dont think DL is being entirely honest about the cuts they will make. Are they really going to expanf MEM at the cost of ATL? More like down sizing MEM under the guise of 150$ barrel oil. I still maintain, UA will sell assets, whcih ones who knows.
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ivana
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As for PHL, UA doesnt need a hub which is 150 miles from their profitable IAD hub. They will have to give up slots at DCA.... hello Airtran !, BOS, perhaps LAX. i ask again, what does US bring to the table. Surely not PARKER as the CEO. The BOD should offer him a case Jack as a welcome gift
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You Are All The Same
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ivana wrote: JETBLAT,good post but I dont agree with you. UA could have made it as stand alone. It has the right size and scope, but lacks the managerial skills. It already has a code share with US so knows the kind of feed to expect to its international flights. Other than that what does US bring..... shattered service reputation that will likely drag even UA's bruised one. It hardly seems like a prize. More of an after thought having been spurned both by DL and CO. Makes you ask,If it was such a prize why UA was turned down. Of course mergers are messy, and employees are the biggest Loosers. I dont think DL is being entirely honest about the cuts they will make. Are they really going to expanf MEM at the cost of ATL? More like down sizing MEM under the guise of 150$ barrel oil. I still maintain, UA will sell assets, whcih ones who knows. Ivana must not get around much. US, a combination of uber service original Piedmont Airlines, careless service US Air, and low-cost service Am West has INCONSISTENT service, not "shattered". At least their flight crews haven't walked off airplanes full of passengers, YET!! Knowing several US employees, I will say that I think they know their product can be CONSISTENTLY BETTER UNDER CAPABLE MANAGEMENT, and improvements are slowly coming. Their biggest issue right now is one that affects operations, the pilot seniority debacle. Not surprisingly, many of the US employees I have talked with feel UAL's dysfunction and culture is more problematic than their own and truly don't want anything to do with UAL either, except for the asset sales. Thus, I believe UAL has more than a "bruised" image than you describe. the main problem I see is that many UAL supporters/employees truly believe their 's@!t' doesn't stink compared to US Airways, when it actually smells just as bad!
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You Are All The Same
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ivana wrote: As for PHL, UA doesnt need a hub which is 150 miles from their profitable IAD hub. They will have to give up slots at DCA.... hello Airtran !, BOS, perhaps LAX. i ask again, what does US bring to the table. Surely not PARKER as the CEO. The BOD should offer him a case Jack as a welcome gift Good points, Ivana. In your opinion, which hub generates the most OAD traffic and profit, PHL or IAD? In your opinion, which CEO is LESS desirable to UAL employees, Parker or Tilton? "Enquiring minds want to know." ;-)
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JetBlast
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Ivana...I thought I did say that UA could survive alone, just with more domestic feed they could do better. PHL and IAD would not both survive nor would the regulators allow it. IAD would win out in a battle of "the most valuable hub".
Not many airport have "slots" anymore anyway other than the NY area and ORD and O'Hare's are only due to a 'gentlemen's agreement'. BOS and LAX don't have slots to give up...only terminal space and gates. Looking back when the DOJ approved the merger/acquisition of RC by NW, the MSP monopoly was overlooked.
If gas keeps going up and no one raises fares enough to compensate, the airlines will all start dropping like flies and the Feds will approve ANYTHING just to keep things afloat.
FYI...I do fly UA by choice and other than originally being from Chicago, the economyPlus seating is a HUGE consideration. I fly home from Iraq a few times a year and on that 14-hour flight, the extra 5 inches of room makes all the difference. They could serve me a bologne sandwich on cold toast and I wouldn't care.
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John
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Judged:
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1
People better realize they may be driving if the airlines can't start making money. Yes some may lose jobs but the airlines must make money they are the backbone of our economy. I myself work the airlines and have took major paycuts so the public could fly for next to nothing. Maybe its time you people drive.
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TripX3
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How many times have we heard airline executives tell politicians exactly what they want to hear and then do just the opposite ? The day following a merger completion hubs/stations will be closed, routes dropped, airplanes grounded and employees furloughed... and the policiticans won't say a word.
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tom
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TripX3 wrote: How many times have we heard airline executives tell politicians exactly what they want to hear and then do just the opposite ? The day following a merger completion hubs/stations will be closed, routes dropped, airplanes grounded and employees furloughed... and the policiticans won't say a word. So would you have the government subsidize the airlines with your tax dollars or allow free enterprise to work itselve out.
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TripX3
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I would prefer airlines, as well as with any business, to be honest and legitimate in their dealings. It has nothing to do with subsidies but rather with integrity. Why not be honest with both the public and politicians and see if a merger is then allowed based on all of the realistic and acknowleged ramifications ?
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Rudy
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TripX3 wrote: How many times have we heard airline executives tell politicians exactly what they want to hear and then do just the opposite ? The day following a merger completion hubs/stations will be closed, routes dropped, airplanes grounded and employees furloughed... and the policiticians won't say a word. Well I believe politicians do the exact same thing. They promise you the world to get elected, then do nothing once your vote has been cast. I hope UAL will try to make it as a stand alone carrier. There will be massive layoffs because of overlap with USair. Plus the mess with the pilots at USair will be very tough to overcome. If massive layoffs do occur, who gets forlouged? Usair, America West, or United guys?
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ivana
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You Are All The Same wrote: <quoted text>
Ivana must not get around much. US, a combination of uber service original Piedmont Airlines, careless service US Air, and low-cost service Am West has INCONSISTENT service, not "shattered". At least their flight crews haven't walked off airplanes full of passengers, YET!! Knowing several US employees, I will say that I think they know their product can be CONSISTENTLY BETTER UNDER CAPABLE MANAGEMENT, and improvements are slowly coming. Their biggest issue right now is one that affects operations, the pilot seniority debacle. Not surprisingly, many of the US employees I have talked with feel UAL's dysfunction and culture is more problematic than their own and truly don't want anything to do with UAL either, except for the asset sales. Thus, I believe UAL has more than a "bruised" image than you describe. the main problem I see is that many UAL supporters/employees truly believe their 's@!t' doesn't stink compared to US Airways, when it actually smells just as bad! I do get around and a LOT. LOL. UA has a FAR SUPERIOR INTL PRODUCT. On the 2 US intl flts I was on, it was embarasing for the crew to keep saying... Iam sorry we are out. Do u have emotional ties to US? I understand. I have none to either. Its just UA happens to be my hometown airline.
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