Propane tank tussle could delay Scotts Valley Town Center

There are 35 comments on the Santa Cruz Sentinel story from Dec 10, 2008, titled Propane tank tussle could delay Scotts Valley Town Center. In it, Santa Cruz Sentinel reports that:

The outdoor shopping center with retail shops, trendy restaurants, apartments and a new public library could be stalled due to the lack of a new home for the propane tanks on Mount Hermon Road.

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take another puff

San Lorenzo, CA

#1 Dec 10, 2008
cement wall? come on mccord, you can get a better photo....
Toll_Free

Tehachapi, CA

#2 Dec 10, 2008
This is truly funny.

Shulman saying he sees no benefit to having propane trucks in Scotts Valley... And the associated tanks.

How about heat, idiot. How about cooking. People USE propane.

As an ex resident of Lockhart Gulch, during 2005 when this was going on, I can attest that it is a touchy subject, but c'mon... They have to go somewhere, and the farther away you put them, the more expensive the gas is going to be. And putting them in an INDUSTRIAL area like proposed would have been a HECK of a lot better than where they are now, where an explosion could kill people with the shrapnel at the park, grocery stores, etc... Even driving by now is problematic.

NIMBYism at it's best.

--Toll_Free

“ I do deny them my essence...”

Since: Mar 08

Santa Cruz, CA

#3 Dec 10, 2008
Let's just keep the darn tanks right where they are. End of story. As for the town center...I'm over it. Face it Scotts Valley, propane tanks ARE your town center.
Dale

New Baltimore, MI

#4 Dec 10, 2008
Who are the uneducated fools that believe these tanks are dangerous? Do a little research on this subject before making a case on safety issues that are unfounded...

How about the QuickStop and Valero gas stations on Scotts Valley Drive... you going to have these shut down too? They are next to many homes and businesses. Propane is a lot safer to store than gasoline... Get yourself educated before making such unfounded remarks.

Scotts Valley needs the tax base the Town Center will bring and should not be influenced by the few NIMBY's that are afraid of changes to improve their community.
Basura Blanco

New Baltimore, MI

#5 Dec 10, 2008
What's up with Scotts Valley?? NIMBYism for sure. The current tanks are 50 YEARS OLD people! I for one, think these tanks should be upgraded without further delay - regardless of the Town Center Project. Based upon what was presented, the newer tanks with all of the modern safety features would pose a minimal risk of an explosion and moving them to an industrial location makes more sense than keeping it in the city's busiest commercial zone. Common sense folks ...
bigRed

San Francisco, CA

#6 Dec 10, 2008
yes, the propane tanks were there long before Scotts Valley grew up around them.
save the tanks

Santa Cruz, CA

#7 Dec 10, 2008
"yes, the propane tanks were there long before Scotts Valley grew up around them."

-Exactly! In a town generally devoid of culture or visible history, those tanks are historical landmarks and should be preserved as such. They should have a plaque honoring their place in history and become the centerpiece of the new town center. More interesting than a jamba juice at least!
love scotts valley

Santa Cruz, CA

#8 Dec 10, 2008
i think most everyone uses propane in scotts valley. and where does everyone get there propane from? those 200 gallon tanks have to be filled. i think most of the gas stations in scotts valley have one of those tanks that can refill your tank. the tanks are staying in scotts valley. so the city needs to make it safe. Are the big tanks not safe now?????
please explain

Santa Cruz, CA

#9 Dec 10, 2008
Dale wrote:
Who are the uneducated fools that believe these tanks are dangerous? Do a little research on this subject before making a case on safety issues that are unfounded...
How about the QuickStop and Valero gas stations on Scotts Valley Drive... you going to have these shut down too? They are next to many homes and businesses. Propane is a lot safer to store than gasoline... Get yourself educated before making such unfounded remarks.
Scotts Valley needs the tax base the Town Center will bring and should not be influenced by the few NIMBY's that are afraid of changes to improve their community.
Could you explain how an above ground pressurized tank of flammable gas is safer than a below ground unpressurized tank filled with flammable liquid?
homer

Los Altos, CA

#10 Dec 10, 2008
love scotts valley wrote:
i think most everyone uses propane in scotts valley.
Please get your facts straight. With the exception of our barbecues, no one in Scotts Valley uses propane. We use PG&E natural gas.

“ I do deny them my essence...”

Since: Mar 08

Santa Cruz, CA

#11 Dec 10, 2008
please explain wrote:
<quoted text>
Could you explain how an above ground pressurized tank of flammable gas is safer than a below ground unpressurized tank filled with flammable liquid?
Let me explain: there is documented proof that more accidents occur at gas stations than at propane facilities. People don't run their cars into propane tanks. You never see cars driving around with broken off propane hoses sticking out of their tanks.
Hangman

Watsonville, CA

#14 Dec 10, 2008
Shulman could give a s***, he does not use Propane. i don't think he BBQ's becauses he and his family is a Vegan. he also does not care about the people that use Propane to heat their homes because they live in the "hills". Move the tanks.
Toll_Free wrote:
This is truly funny.
Shulman saying he sees no benefit to having propane trucks in Scotts Valley... And the associated tanks.
How about heat, idiot. How about cooking. People USE propane.
As an ex resident of Lockhart Gulch, during 2005 when this was going on, I can attest that it is a touchy subject, but c'mon... They have to go somewhere, and the farther away you put them, the more expensive the gas is going to be. And putting them in an INDUSTRIAL area like proposed would have been a HECK of a lot better than where they are now, where an explosion could kill people with the shrapnel at the park, grocery stores, etc... Even driving by now is problematic.
NIMBYism at it's best.
--Toll_Free
love scotts valley

Santa Cruz, CA

#15 Dec 10, 2008
i would love to have the tanks in my back yard. i was at the PC meeting and saw the way the new tanks will be and how safer they will be then where they are now. they don't have to move and if they don't then they will have the chance of a BELIVE being that they will not be inclosed and mounded in gravel. the tank can't get to 800 degres in the new design. but it can if its left where its at.
Steve Hartman

AOL

#16 Dec 10, 2008
No doubt - everything comes down to money. The city wants the tanks gone; but are they willing to pay for a new site? Certainly the tanks sit in prime space and the owners want the huge, but fair price for that property and they want the city to also cocver the expnse of removal and replacement at a new site. Sounds fair to me.

So where does the city get the money? Well, if there is redevelopment on the land, the city is going to get a huge post Prop 13 increase in property taxation from that development.

Is that not enough?

OK, how about a grant from Homeland Security. It seems to me the propane tank (s?) could be considered ripe for a terrorist act to level the area. Probably not "probable" but certainly a possible threat. So, I'm wondering if anyone has looked in that direction?

All I know for sure is, the folks at Suburban are extraordinairily nice folks that have always been a credit to the community. And, it's really not their fault that the city chose to build around them and then start complaining.
Check it out

San Jose, CA

#17 Dec 10, 2008
Even IF the propane holding tank itself is safe (and that is a big IF) how 'bout the 50 trucks loaded with fuel going up and down city streets? THEY don't have any pea gravel around them. If if is no different than a gas station, why do all the cities around here (including Scotts Valley!) have laws to prevent new tanks from moving into town?

There are lots of problems with the relocation. Check out savescottsvalley.com

If the city wants to move these tanks, they need to find a more remote location that doesn't put the rest of the town at risk. Moving the problem isn't the same as solving the problem.

“ I do deny them my essence...”

Since: Mar 08

Santa Cruz, CA

#18 Dec 10, 2008
Check it out wrote:
Even IF the propane holding tank itself is safe (and that is a big IF) how 'bout the 50 trucks loaded with fuel going up and down city streets? THEY don't have any pea gravel around them. If if is no different than a gas station, why do all the cities around here (including Scotts Valley!) have laws to prevent new tanks from moving into town?
There are lots of problems with the relocation. Check out savescottsvalley.com
If the city wants to move these tanks, they need to find a more remote location that doesn't put the rest of the town at risk. Moving the problem isn't the same as solving the problem.
Dude, show me the accident reports of all the propane accidents from trucks and commercial tanks in the past 50 years in this area. Can't find them right? Because there aren't any. Why aren't these tanks dangerous right now? This is so stupid. Go ahead and put them in my backyard and pay me the rent, and heat my house with propane. And while you're at I'll take a cell tower too.
Coulrophobia

San Bruno, CA

#19 Dec 10, 2008
"Because there is insufficient air and/or combustible material, there is no possibility that a fire could raise the temperature of the tank shell to an unsafe level," said Charlie Eadie, a land-use consultant representing Suburban Propane. "With this design, there is no blast zone."

This is pure spin. Actually, I'd call it a lie. Most tank explosions are not due to exposure to heat (an intact tank can withstand extremely high temps, and in fact propane companies put out p.r. material discounting the idea that tanks exposed to fire will explode). An overheated tank blows off fuel, and that fuel will ignite if there is fire nearby, but what you will get is a flare, not an explosion. What makes tanks explode is a break in the system -- a pipe or valve, say -- which allows gas to ignite, and the fire travels back to the tank, which then explodes. In cold, snowy climates where people have weekend cabins with propane tanks, it's not unusual to have these tanks explode out of the blue. A small gas leak collects and travels along the gas pipe under the snow, is ignited by a pilot light on an appliance or furnace, and the fire travels back to the tank. Boom. I can't say whether this shallow mound over a tank will help with an explosion, but my gut feeling is that it will simply add projectiles to the mix. The concrete wall might lessen sideways thrust... maybe.

But this is spin no less. Don't believe it. Here is an example of propane industry p.r. literature:

http://www.propane101.com/explodingpropanetan...

I find it very funny that Scotts Valley seems to be trying to ditch its rural past, btw. this comes across as a kind of "Honey, hide the propane tank, so the relatives don't think we're hicks."
Coulrophobia

San Bruno, CA

#20 Dec 10, 2008
Robert Jackson wrote:
<quoted text>Dude, show me the accident reports of all the propane accidents from trucks and commercial tanks in the past 50 years in this area. Can't find them right? Because there aren't any. Why aren't these tanks dangerous right now? This is so stupid. Go ahead and put them in my backyard and pay me the rent, and heat my house with propane. And while you're at I'll take a cell tower too.
Propane blows up because of human error. Mistakes can happen in any setting. A relief valve is not shut completely, a pipe is broken and a spark generated...a slow leak is not noticed.

It's all about maintenance and monitoring. I have propane, too. But I've been shocked at how sloppy companies are about the filling of residential tanks. I've had delivery guys do some things that could very easily have blown up my place. Presumably, the propane companies are much more careful when the turf is their own.
bigrob

San Mateo, CA

#21 Dec 10, 2008
Robert Jackson wrote:
Let's just keep the darn tanks right where they are. End of story. As for the town center...I'm over it. Face it Scotts Valley, propane tanks ARE your town center.
Rolling on the floor laughing my donkey off. What he said!!
Dale

Cupertino, CA

#22 Dec 10, 2008
please explain wrote:
<quoted text>
Could you explain how an above ground pressurized tank of flammable gas is safer than a below ground unpressurized tank filled with flammable liquid?
The Volatility of Propane vs. Gasoline is much less. Propane tanks are tested to four times the normal operating pressures, and the tanks are 20 times as puncture resistant as gasoline tanks. Propane is nontoxic, nonpoisonous, and has the lowest flammability range of any alternative fuel. Common Sense facts found all over the Internet.

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