Study: Education in dire straits

Study: Education in dire straits

There are 34 comments on the Monterey County Herald story from Dec 14, 2010, titled Study: Education in dire straits. In it, Monterey County Herald reports that:

There was a time, almost a decade ago, when Rick Ziel had fewer than 20 students in the classroom.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Monterey County Herald.

First Prev
of 2
Next Last
Ocean View

Pebble Beach, CA

#21 Dec 31, 2010
Alfie Noakes wrote:
<quoted text>
So if STAR testing is not a way to evaluate how students and teachers are doing, why bother testing?
I am not an advocate of annual standardized testing because of the emphasis that it takes off of the process of learning, focussing instead on information acquisition, which is a poor measure of understanding, curiosity, motivation, and creativity, factors which are more relevant to success.
Ocean View

Pebble Beach, CA

#22 Dec 31, 2010
John Lee wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, first thing you need to realize is that teaching offers teachers things beyond mere pay. Teachers, in their own words, wax poetic about how they get to affect the lives of children... they all have little trinkets on their desks about how precious this role is...
They also get a unique benefit of a 10-week block of free time during the summer months. Very few other professions have this perk. It's something that is difficult to quantify (in $), but certainly having this unique benefit adds to the compensation teachers enjoy.
As to your military analogy: It is sad how brainwashed respectable people (like you, presumably) are. This is not WW2 and hitting the shores at Normandy. In 2010, the U.S. has a bigger military THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. We have military bases in over 100 countries around the world. To make your little comment comparing military to teaching, shows how ignorant you are to various facts. Our military is grossly overbuilt, and--when history books look back in 100 years at the US empire, they will cite this glaring fact.(As a teacher, ask yourself how we appear... and how we will appear, to people in the future. All of those things I mentioned are verifiable.)
The bottom line is that (tenured, older) teachers need to make sacrifices. Everyone can agree that this situation is "dire". What sacrifice have teachers made (besides sacrificing their younger brethren)?
Being a teacher, I am not particulary thrilled about living on 42 weeks of earnings each year, which is why many teachers have second jobs, especially during the summer. This "perk" is highly overrated in the minds of the general public. When studies show that experienced teachers do a better job of educating children than new teachers, it doesn't make a lot of sense to "sacrifice" those veterans so that inexperienced new (and less expensive) staff get their opportunity to do a poorer job until they gain the sort of experience that already exists in others.
Monterey Native

Chualar, CA

#23 Dec 31, 2010
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not an advocate of annual standardized testing because of the emphasis that it takes off of the process of learning, focussing instead on information acquisition, which is a poor measure of understanding, curiosity, motivation, and creativity, factors which are more relevant to success.
But using your criteria we have already failed every child in the public schools system then! When was the last time you stepped foot in a school in our area? Even basic subjects like Science and Social Studies have been slashed due to budget cuts and PI mandates. We punish the children who are doing well in school because so many of the kids here ARE failing and all the money gets funneled back in to failing schools leaving all the kids and teachers spinning around in circles. Oh and FYI high school drop out rates have increased in California not decreased!
Ocean View

Pebble Beach, CA

#24 Dec 31, 2010
Monterey Native wrote:
<quoted text>
But using your criteria we have already failed every child in the public schools system then! When was the last time you stepped foot in a school in our area? Even basic subjects like Science and Social Studies have been slashed due to budget cuts and PI mandates. We punish the children who are doing well in school because so many of the kids here ARE failing and all the money gets funneled back in to failing schools leaving all the kids and teachers spinning around in circles. Oh and FYI high school drop out rates have increased in California not decreased!
Last things first, the high school drop out rate in California has been reduced by 50% since 1970, when it exceeded 30%; now it hovers in the mid teens. In addition to the problem of inequitable funding, schools are failing also because there is so much emphasis on testing rather than on learning, experimentation, and exploration, which motivates children to acquire the relevant skills necessary for them to be able to successfully learn on their own.
Monterey Native

Chualar, CA

#25 Dec 31, 2010
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
Last things first, the high school drop out rate in California has been reduced by 50% since 1970, when it exceeded 30%; now it hovers in the mid teens. In addition to the problem of inequitable funding, schools are failing also because there is so much emphasis on testing rather than on learning, experimentation, and exploration, which motivates children to acquire the relevant skills necessary for them to be able to successfully learn on their own.
Not according to the Ca State Board of Education!
If you are a teacher, I am shocked that you are not up to speed with these stats!
Go look them up! So no blame for the parents? No teachers in the system failing and kept in place due to ridiculous early tenure either then!? Ha ha ha ....... Except it IS NOT FUNNY!
Alfie Noakes

Chualar, CA

#26 Dec 31, 2010
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
Last things first, the high school drop out rate in California has been reduced by 50% since 1970, when it exceeded 30%; now it hovers in the mid teens. In addition to the problem of inequitable funding, schools are failing also because there is so much emphasis on testing rather than on learning, experimentation, and exploration, which motivates children to acquire the relevant skills necessary for them to be able to successfully learn on their own.
I am not a fan of NCLB testing but there are many many more reasons for high drop out rates, poor quality education and over crowded out of control classrooms!
Steven Seagal--Lawman

United States

#27 Dec 31, 2010
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
Being a teacher, I am not particulary thrilled about living on 42 weeks of earnings each year, which is why many teachers have second jobs, especially during the summer. This "perk" is highly overrated in the minds of the general public. When studies show that experienced teachers do a better job of educating children than new teachers, it doesn't make a lot of sense to "sacrifice" those veterans so that inexperienced new (and less expensive) staff get their opportunity to do a poorer job until they gain the sort of experience that already exists in others.
Whether or not *you* don't like summers off, it is NOT an "overrated" factor in teacher compensation. 10 weeks of free time is a TREMENDOUS benefit of a professional occupation, allowing for freedom. It's not to imply you just sit on your butt, and watch your kids play at the park (although, you may and there's nothing wrong with that). It's to say that you, as a professional person, have the opportunity to spend 10 weeks every year doing what you want to do, full-time. What other profession affords that?

As to your other comment, what "studies" are you speaking of? When I say "sacrifice", I'm not advocating the outright release of older teachers. I AM advocating a paycut across the board, to accomodate the new budget. What sacrifice have (tenured) teachers made? Can you tell me that?

You cite some bogus study of how productive older teachers are. I cite my personal observation over the past few years (since this recession started). I see NOTHING that indicates the older teacher and her/his superiority when it comes to teaching. I see plenty of complacency, and senses of entitlement. I see teachers continue to operate like it's 2000, and all his honky-dory. I see them practically race each other to the parking lot at 3pm. I see them continue to complain and bemoan (new) realities in teaching. I see no effort to extend themselves and go above and beyond, in trying to bridge the gap that's been created in loss of support/classes/services.

I also see legions of young(er) teachers, a large number of which with good experience in the classroom, who are made to sit IDLY by. You can't tell me "studies" show that these teachers can't produce at least as well as their veteran counterpart, especially considering the enthusiasm, the extra time, and exuberance they bring to their role. I wouldn't believe it, and it's not because I'm not open-minded. I just seen too much, to be swayed by some "study".
Monterey Native

Chualar, CA

#28 Dec 31, 2010
I agree with your points!
The union in Monterey cares little for the student as a whole! They fight change at every level and their main concern is based on self interest. New ideas and refreshing open dialogue is needed to invigorate our stagnant school system!
Steven Seagal--Lawman wrote:
<quoted text>
Whether or not *you* don't like summers off, it is NOT an "overrated" factor in teacher compensation. 10 weeks of free time is a TREMENDOUS benefit of a professional occupation, allowing for freedom. It's not to imply you just sit on your butt, and watch your kids play at the park (although, you may and there's nothing wrong with that). It's to say that you, as a professional person, have the opportunity to spend 10 weeks every year doing what you want to do, full-time. What other profession affords that?
As to your other comment, what "studies" are you speaking of? When I say "sacrifice", I'm not advocating the outright release of older teachers. I AM advocating a paycut across the board, to accomodate the new budget. What sacrifice have (tenured) teachers made? Can you tell me that?
You cite some bogus study of how productive older teachers are. I cite my personal observation over the past few years (since this recession started). I see NOTHING that indicates the older teacher and her/his superiority when it comes to teaching. I see plenty of complacency, and senses of entitlement. I see teachers continue to operate like it's 2000, and all his honky-dory. I see them practically race each other to the parking lot at 3pm. I see them continue to complain and bemoan (new) realities in teaching. I see no effort to extend themselves and go above and beyond, in trying to bridge the gap that's been created in loss of support/classes/services.
I also see legions of young(er) teachers, a large number of which with good experience in the classroom, who are made to sit IDLY by. You can't tell me "studies" show that these teachers can't produce at least as well as their veteran counterpart, especially considering the enthusiasm, the extra time, and exuberance they bring to their role. I wouldn't believe it, and it's not because I'm not open-minded. I just seen too much, to be swayed by some "study".
Lon Rocke

Chico, CA

#29 Dec 31, 2010
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
Being a teacher, I am not particulary thrilled about living on 42 weeks of earnings each year, which is why many teachers have second jobs, especially during the summer. This "perk" is highly overrated in the minds of the general public. When studies show that experienced teachers do a better job of educating children than new teachers, it doesn't make a lot of sense to "sacrifice" those veterans so that inexperienced new (and less expensive) staff get their opportunity to do a poorer job until they gain the sort of experience that already exists in others.
Foolishness. Your checks come in all year around. Your medical insurance is good all year around; and don't even mention your unfunded retirement. Even a six year old schoolboy can see through that old gag that teachers don't get paid for the summer.
Monterey Native

Chualar, CA

#30 Dec 31, 2010
CALPADS is now the most up to date accurate way of tracking students. Again, your figures are erroneous as the rate has continued to climb over the last 5 years. It also does not track middle school drop out rates which have increased year by year and CALPADS does not factor student withdrawal Some educational watchdog groups calculate the percentage of children leaving without a HS diploma well over 30%. As a teacher you need to re-educate yourself on your failing school system that you desperately try to prop up at our kids expense!
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
Last things first, the high school drop out rate in California has been reduced by 50% since 1970, when it exceeded 30%; now it hovers in the mid teens. In addition to the problem of inequitable funding, schools are failing also because there is so much emphasis on testing rather than on learning, experimentation, and exploration, which motivates children to acquire the relevant skills necessary for them to be able to successfully learn on their own.
Huh

Clearlake, CA

#31 Dec 31, 2010
Seth Adams wrote:
<quoted text>
Our States rates 47th in Public Education effectiveness. It only makes sense that our Teachers have EARNED the 47th level pay and pension.
Our Teachers are paid far more than the results would indicate that they are worth.
The lower rank in per pupil spending does not reflect salary rates.
Actually, teachers in california are among the highest paid teachers in the nation. Nearly all of the educational dollars in Calif. go to salaries and pensions.
Taxpayers in Calif. know this to be true, so they are reluctant to provide more dollars to an ever more union dominated educational environment. The result has been self evident.
Huh

Clearlake, CA

#32 Dec 31, 2010
Ocean View wrote:
<quoted text>
Because they are already the least paid of all the professions for which advanced education is required for employment. Cutting teacher's pay is like suggesting that military pay should be cut; they have already accepted many years of below average pay for the promise that their dedication will be recognized by a grateful public.
The term "professional" was given up by your predecessors when you unionized. You are now just "rank and file."
the median wage in Calif. is around $40k per year(52 weeks). The median salary for teachers in Calif. is nearly $60k ( 180 days worked, not including a very generous benefit package). Quit whining.
Philosopher

Monterey, CA

#33 Jan 1, 2011
Huh wrote:
<quoted text>
The term "professional" was given up by your predecessors when you unionized. You are now just "rank and file."
the median wage in Calif. is around $40k per year(52 weeks). The median salary for teachers in Calif. is nearly $60k ( 180 days worked, not including a very generous benefit package). Quit whining.
The retirement package is tremendous for the public teaching profession along with the medical benefits. Just add an additional $10K per year.

However, one area overlooked is the community college instructors. In comparison to K -12, this is an area to reform. They average around $80K for only 15 units a semester with no research requirements. In addition, they receive sabbaticals every seven years. If they revised this to 18 units and no sabbaticals along with cutting sports programs for community colleges just imagine how much money could be transfered to K-12.
Huh

Clearlake, CA

#34 Jan 1, 2011
Philosopher wrote:
<quoted text>
The retirement package is tremendous for the public teaching profession along with the medical benefits. Just add an additional $10K per year.
However, one area overlooked is the community college instructors. In comparison to K -12, this is an area to reform. They average around $80K for only 15 units a semester with no research requirements. In addition, they receive sabbaticals every seven years. If they revised this to 18 units and no sabbaticals along with cutting sports programs for community colleges just imagine how much money could be transfered to K-12.
The medical benefits alone for a teacher in our district are $17k per year. If you add retirement and other incidentals I am sure the added cost of benefits will easily approach $30k per year.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 2
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Monterey Pasta Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Business on hold for P.G. pot club (Mar '10) May '15 Mike 8
News Mills brothers face new lawsuits over loans (Nov '08) Aug '14 Plain Simple 16
News Cannery Row - Monterey Bay Adventures (Dec '09) Sep '13 Old Timer 5
News Roshni Singh was strangled (Oct '08) Oct '12 denu 17
News Salyer American shuts its doors (May '09) Jul '12 A Ghost From the ... 14
News Monterey Sheriff's Son Arrested After Drugs Found (Jun '11) Jun '11 Freebo 2
News Letters: Mayor says numbers are wrong (Feb '09) Jun '11 jamie farr 15
More from around the web