'Million dollar tortoises' shed light...

'Million dollar tortoises' shed light on state's environmental ...

There are 22 comments on the San Bernardino County Sun story from Dec 28, 2009, titled 'Million dollar tortoises' shed light on state's environmental .... In it, San Bernardino County Sun reports that:

They might be the most expensive tortoises to walk the San Bernardino County desert.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at San Bernardino County Sun.

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jd coffey JD

Los Angeles, CA

#1 Dec 28, 2009
Relocation is not an option. This has been tried already from the Silurian Valley, south of Ft. Irwin. It has resulted in a 90% fatality rate for the relocated tortoises. They have very little adaptability from a habitat and food supply perspective. They have little in the way of an immune system. They have adapted to a particular place, with particular plants and nesting burrows.
There are both state and federal laws protecting this species. There are now only approximately 45.000 left in the Mojave desert. This may or may not be a sustainable number. Extinction is forever. It would take 10,000 years for another species just to fill the niche occupied by the tortoise.
Find someplace else to build your infernal solar plants. They will be obsolete in a few years, but the tortoise will be gone forever. Which is exactly what the developers want.
Charlie Peters

San Leandro, CA

#2 Dec 29, 2009
support HR 1207
Wobbles

Hesperia, CA

#3 Dec 29, 2009
another government shakedown
Reddy Kilowatt

Redlands, CA

#4 Dec 29, 2009
Problem is that the solar installations don't make sense from the standpoint of economics, physics, or ecology. They are driven by legislative mandate to have 20-30%'green' power. Utilities don't care because they have service area monopolies that the PUC permits an 11.5% on investment. The higher the cost, the higher the utility bills.

The smart thing would be to be setting up research projects near energy institutes and build large natural gas power plants for nearterm power production. When solar plants become competitive, mothball the NG combined cycle plants and switch to renewable.
JoeSchmo33

Riverside, CA

#5 Dec 29, 2009
Turtles are only good for my soup....
Dave in Crafton Hills

Yorba Linda, CA

#6 Dec 29, 2009
Alternative Energy seeks to destroy the environment in order to *save* it.
JoeSchmo33

Riverside, CA

#7 Dec 29, 2009
Right, because losing 25 tortoises is destroying the environment. Now, quit hugging that Redwood.
this happens alot

Dayton, OH

#8 Dec 29, 2009
WTF why are people so stupid. I think Hilter should have just lined up the stupid and had them shot.
this happens alot

Dayton, OH

#9 Dec 29, 2009
jd coffey JD wrote:
Relocation is not an option. This has been tried already from the Silurian Valley, south of Ft. Irwin. It has resulted in a 90% fatality rate for the relocated tortoises. They have very little adaptability from a habitat and food supply perspective. They have little in the way of an immune system. They have adapted to a particular place, with particular plants and nesting burrows.
There are both state and federal laws protecting this species. There are now only approximately 45.000 left in the Mojave desert. This may or may not be a sustainable number. Extinction is forever. It would take 10,000 years for another species just to fill the niche occupied by the tortoise.
Find someplace else to build your infernal solar plants. They will be obsolete in a few years, but the tortoise will be gone forever. Which is exactly what the developers want.
My reply
Blah blah blah OMG LOL
paul states

United States

#10 Dec 29, 2009
I love asian tortoise soup! I say more solar.
Reddy Kilowatt

Redlands, CA

#11 Dec 30, 2009
You're going to like it when your electricity costs double and triple.
Dave in Crafton Hills

Yorba Linda, CA

#12 Dec 30, 2009
There's your problem right there.

Alternative energy is ALWAYS much more expensive. If it wasn't, we'd make it our main source and call it "primary" energy.

Even though we don't have to import wind and sunshine,*green* energy is always the most expensive choice.

Green is just "greed" with an "n".
JoeSchmo33

Riverside, CA

#13 Dec 30, 2009
Yes, and computers used to cost thousands and thousands of dollars for a VERY basic system. Prices decrease and economies of scale improve. More and more solar equals lower and lower prices.

So using your logic, because something costs a lot initially it should be scrapped??? What backward thinking!
Realist

Acworth, GA

#15 Dec 31, 2009
You can pay me $1 Million and I'll go out and 'relocate' the tortoises for you. End of problem.
Graucho

Vernon Hills, IL

#16 Dec 31, 2009
Tell the idiots to go suck eggs and bulid your plant somewhere else!!
Reddy Kilowatt

Redlands, CA

#17 Dec 31, 2009
JoeSchmo33 wrote:
Yes, and computers used to cost thousands and thousands of dollars for a VERY basic system. Prices decrease and economies of scale improve. More and more solar equals lower and lower prices.
So using your logic, because something costs a lot initially it should be scrapped??? What backward thinking!
Joe - you're exactly right. Computers DID 'cost thousands and thousands of dollars for a VERY basic system', as a result a few of these expensive systems were built an deployed. Once prices came down, the market put out lots of cheap computers.

The energy situation is EXACTLY OPPOSITE. Solar now costs 'thousands and thousands of dollars for a VERY basic system', yet is being deployed in massive amounts: California's current electric production is on the order of 34,000 MW. The current book of solar plants in California is 40-60,000 MW. That's because there isn't a market in electricity. It's being driven by legislators and PUC monopolists.

Enjoy your rising cost of living.

May you never slip off the tortise of life.
Ruler4You

Nampa, ID

#18 Dec 31, 2009
This is exactly why California is in the fiscal predicament it is in, and apparently can't learn from. Stupid expensive regulation.
JoeSchmo33

Riverside, CA

#19 Dec 31, 2009
Reddy Kilowatt wrote:
<quoted text>
Joe - you're exactly right. Computers DID 'cost thousands and thousands of dollars for a VERY basic system', as a result a few of these expensive systems were built an deployed. Once prices came down, the market put out lots of cheap computers.
The energy situation is EXACTLY OPPOSITE. Solar now costs 'thousands and thousands of dollars for a VERY basic system', yet is being deployed in massive amounts: California's current electric production is on the order of 34,000 MW. The current book of solar plants in California is 40-60,000 MW. That's because there isn't a market in electricity. It's being driven by legislators and PUC monopolists.
Enjoy your rising cost of living.
May you never slip off the tortise of life.
To continue....relatively few of these expensive solar projects are going forward. A few thousand acres in the Mojave Desert is nothing. Once prices decrease, you will really see an explosion.
Reddy Kilowatt

Redlands, CA

#20 Dec 31, 2009
JoeSchmo33 wrote:
<quoted text>
To continue....relatively few of these expensive solar projects are going forward. A few thousand acres in the Mojave Desert is nothing. Once prices decrease, you will really see an explosion.
If it's nothing, why don't you pay for it and let me keep my rates unchanged?

<<If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.>>

Until the low hanging fruit for energy conservation is plucked, I oppose expensive boondoggles like planned for the Mojave. However, I could not oppose a check box on your power bill that would double your current electric rate with the extra charge going to pay for such a project. I'd let the project go forward once you've prepaid.

(Perhaps you've never done the math on solar installations but this issue isn't just the thing itself. It's also how do you store the power that's generated but not used? What do you do all week-end? Throw the power away? I hope you understand that most modern power plants are base-loaded. The minute you start throttling them back, efficiency dives. It's a lot cheaper to have smart meters that charge customers less at night than during the day to leaven demand. In France everyone does their laundry at night. There are lots of simple strategies like that to be implemented before doing stupid solar stuff. And by the way, I hope you realize that these solar fields are thermal, not photovoltaic. The cost of thermal fields may not experience efficiencies of scale. In fact their costs will probably go up because the water they need to clean their mirrors will go up in price. Your whole concept is naive and stupid. It's just big government at its worst.)
JoeSchmo33

Riverside, CA

#21 Dec 31, 2009
Reddy Kilowatt wrote:
<quoted text>
If it's nothing, why don't you pay for it and let me keep my rates unchanged?
<<If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.>>
Until the low hanging fruit for energy conservation is plucked, I oppose expensive boondoggles like planned for the Mojave. However, I could not oppose a check box on your power bill that would double your current electric rate with the extra charge going to pay for such a project. I'd let the project go forward once you've prepaid.
(Perhaps you've never done the math on solar installations but this issue isn't just the thing itself. It's also how do you store the power that's generated but not used? What do you do all week-end? Throw the power away? I hope you understand that most modern power plants are base-loaded. The minute you start throttling them back, efficiency dives. It's a lot cheaper to have smart meters that charge customers less at night than during the day to leaven demand. In France everyone does their laundry at night. There are lots of simple strategies like that to be implemented before doing stupid solar stuff. And by the way, I hope you realize that these solar fields are thermal, not photovoltaic. The cost of thermal fields may not experience efficiencies of scale. In fact their costs will probably go up because the water they need to clean their mirrors will go up in price. Your whole concept is naive and stupid. It's just big government at its worst.)
Sorry, I feel asleep half way through your rambling run on paragraph.

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