If you think Sharia is a threat. . .

If you think Sharia is a threat. . .

Posted in the Columbus Forum

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“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#1 Aug 16, 2012
Consider some recent events that swirl around Jerry Falwell's Liberty University law school.

A Mennonite pastor was just last week convicted in aiding in the abduction and transportation to Nicaragua of a client of Mat Staver, the Dean of the law school. Having exhausted legal remedies to bar the legal (and lesbian) mother of his client's child (the client is a "former lesbian") from having contact, the case began to disintegrate when both client and child disappeared. Staver of course maintained that neither he nor any in his office had knowledge of their whereabouts.

A good bit of the evidence in the trial against the Mennonite pastor pointed to the likelihood of very direct involvement on the part of not only friends and relations of Staver and associates, but also Staver and those in his direct employ.

Staver and Liberty are now being charged with RICO violations. One piece of evidence is Staver's own law curriculum, which urged law students that when God's law is in conflict with the law of the land that they are obligated to urge clients to civil disobediance.

"Students at Liberty Law School tell RD that in the required Foundations of Law class in the fall of 2008, taught by Miller’s attorneys Mat Staver and Rena Lindevaldsen, they were repeatedly instructed that when faced with a conflict between “God’s law” and “man’s law,” they should resolve that conflict through “civil disobedience.” One student said,“the idea was when you are confronted with a particular situation, for instance, if you have a court order against you that is in violation of what you see as God’s law, essentially... civil disobedience was the answer.”

This student and two others, who all requested anonymity for fear of reprisal by Staver (who is also the law school’s dean), recounted the classroom discussion of civil disobedience, as well as efforts to draw comparisons between choosing “God’s law” over “man’s law” to the American revolution and Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail. According to one student, in the Foundations course both Staver and Lindevaldsen “espoused the opinion that in situations where God’s law is in direct contradiction to man’s law, we have an obligation to disobey it.”

Deborah Cantrell, a professor at the University of Colorado School of Law, and an expert in both legal ethics and family law, said that discussions of civil disobedience in law school classrooms must “be transparent that this is not a simplistic conversation.” She added that a law professor should emphasize that the discussion is a “normative” one, and that civil disobedience has consequences, including jail, and, for a lawyer who advises a client to disobey a court order, possible loss of their license to practice law."
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/pol...

Staver, by the way, also represented Blake Lorenz. You may recall him as the Florida minister who provided Rifqa Bary the means to leave Ohio, and then kept her hidden for two weeks before the police caught up.

Kidnapper for God?
tip

Zanesville, OH

#2 Aug 16, 2012
Analogy fail, as usual.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#3 Aug 16, 2012
tip wrote:
Analogy fail, as usual.
Perhaps the headline is over the top.

But, what do you think of a religious organization that has founded a law school to teach that breaking the law is an obligation?(btw--they also use their science departments to teach creationism)

And what limitations do they set with regard to "God's law"? And what authorities do they name in discerning God's law?

They are advocates for the kidnapping of minor children when they don't like, or don't trust the outcomes of our court system and laws.

Anyone else find the whole thing more than a tad scary?
tip

Zanesville, OH

#4 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps the headline is over the top.
But, what do you think of a religious organization that has founded a law school to teach that breaking the law is an obligation?(btw--they also use their science departments to teach creationism)
And what limitations do they set with regard to "God's law"? And what authorities do they name in discerning God's law?
They are advocates for the kidnapping of minor children when they don't like, or don't trust the outcomes of our court system and laws.
Anyone else find the whole thing more than a tad scary?
Reminder: These United States of America were born of civil disobedience.

You would have citizens obey any abusive, unlawful government...regardless.
Then again...you are, after all, a Marxist.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#5 Aug 16, 2012
tip wrote:
<quoted text>
Reminder: These United States of America were born of civil disobedience.
You would have citizens obey any abusive, unlawful government...regardless.
Then again...you are, after all, a Marxist.
Completely mindful of the country's history, as well as a good many folks who have practiced conscientious objection to injustices through civil disobedience.

However, if you consider the acts of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, these were not haphazard actions, they were not individually motivated and they were carried out with full knowledge and expectation of the legal consequences of actions.

This strikes me as being far different from kidnapping a child, constructing a network of abduction to remove her from the country--all the while claiming to have no knowledge. And to do so with something as ill-defined as Staver appears to be presenting as "God's law" (presumably interpreted at the whim of an individual); not to mention handing out "legal" advice advocating the same--well, I don't know that this even belongs in the same discussion with "civil disobedience."

It seems to be nothing more than individually choosing the laws one will support, breaking others, and maintaining no thought about ethics when it comes to the lives of others who end up being brought along for the ride.

Since: Oct 10

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#6 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>

It seems to be nothing more than individually choosing the laws one will support, breaking others, and maintaining no thought about ethics when it comes to the lives of others who end up being brought along for the ride.
That's funny skimmer....choosing the laws you wish to support
"and maintaining no thought about ethics when it comes to the lives of others who end up being brought along for the ride."?

Now....you support US law?

LMAO
tip

Zanesville, OH

#7 Aug 16, 2012
6was9 wrote:
<quoted text>
That's funny skimmer....choosing the laws you wish to support
"and maintaining no thought about ethics when it comes to the lives of others who end up being brought along for the ride."?
Now....you support US law?
LMAO
She's quite the selective entertainer.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#8 Aug 16, 2012
6was9 wrote:
<quoted text>
That's funny skimmer....choosing the laws you wish to support
"and maintaining no thought about ethics when it comes to the lives of others who end up being brought along for the ride."?
Now....you support US law?
LMAO
bb--you have to pay attention to what I say--not what you believe I am going to say.

That's the difference between fighting straw men and real people.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#9 Aug 16, 2012
6was9 wrote:
<quoted text>
That's funny skimmer....choosing the laws you wish to support
"and maintaining no thought about ethics when it comes to the lives of others who end up being brought along for the ride."?
Now....you support US law?
LMAO
BTW--you would be supportive then of the RICO action against Liberty?

Since: Oct 10

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#10 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW--you would be supportive then of the RICO action against Liberty?
I am not really familiar with the case but, if as it appears the law was broken....YES
I just skimmed a google search however.

If you are implying that the plaintiffs sexual preference would give the slightest weight in my opinion you are are incorrect

I support the enforcement of existing law.

Since: Oct 10

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#11 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
bb--you have to pay attention to what I say--not what you believe I am going to say.
That's the difference between fighting straw men and real people.
LMAO you are way funny skimmer.....

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#13 Aug 16, 2012
6was9 wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not really familiar with the case but, if as it appears the law was broken....YES
I just skimmed a google search however.
If you are implying that the plaintiffs sexual preference would give the slightest weight in my opinion you are are incorrect
I support the enforcement of existing law.
I wasn't implying anything abuot your beliefs. I was just trying to move the conversation back to the case at hand.

While I find the specific case to be interesting, I find it even more threatening that Liberty U is moving forward what seems to be an agenda (sometimes also attributed to the Kochs, sometimes attributed to Dominionists) of control through "education."

And, they are not the only ones who would go down this particular path vis a vis children of same-sex parents. http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/201...

Since: Oct 10

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#14 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
I wasn't implying anything abuot your beliefs. I was just trying to move the conversation back to the case at hand.
While I find the specific case to be interesting, I find it even more threatening that Liberty U is moving forward what seems to be an agenda (sometimes also attributed to the Kochs, sometimes attributed to Dominionists) of control through "education."
And, they are not the only ones who would go down this particular path vis a vis children of same-sex parents. http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/201...
Well then, bringing it back to the topic of sharia,

I am not very familiar with all the "so Called Christian" radical groups that you love to use to turn the discussion away from the reality of radical islam. Being a non religious fellow I doubt that I would approve of them either.

That being said, as soon as the Christians start executing gay folks , stoning women for adultery, strapping on suicide bombs while shouting Jesus akbar etc. get back to me I may do a little research.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#15 Aug 16, 2012
6was9 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well then, bringing it back to the topic of sharia,
I am not very familiar with all the "so Called Christian" radical groups that you love to use to turn the discussion away from the reality of radical islam. Being a non religious fellow I doubt that I would approve of them either.
That being said, as soon as the Christians start executing gay folks , stoning women for adultery, strapping on suicide bombs while shouting Jesus akbar etc. get back to me I may do a little research.
Does it count if they (American Christian Dominionists) are doing so in Uganda?

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#16 Aug 16, 2012
6was9 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well then, bringing it back to the topic of sharia,
I am not very familiar with all the "so Called Christian" radical groups that you love to use to turn the discussion away from the reality of radical islam. Being a non religious fellow I doubt that I would approve of them either.
That being said, as soon as the Christians start executing gay folks , stoning women for adultery, strapping on suicide bombs while shouting Jesus akbar etc. get back to me I may do a little research.
Oh--and if they are supporting groups doing those things, or similar, in Nigeria, does that count?
imagine2011
#17 Aug 16, 2012
tip wrote:
<quoted text>
Reminder: These United States of America were born of civil disobedience.
You would have citizens obey any abusive, unlawful government...regardless.
Then again...you are, after all, a Marxist.
imagine2011
#18 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Does it count if they (American Christian Dominionists) are doing so in Uganda?
That is a big fat lie that the gay groups are spreading around, trying to discredit Christians. Actually, the Christian groups are trying their best to STOP the gay murders there in those countries, so are other countries who chipping in money to try and BUY THEIR COMPLIANCE to not murder gays.
imagine2011
#19 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Does it count if they (American Christian Dominionists) are doing so in Uganda?
One more thing, you and your leftist buddies would welcome Ugandans and Nigerians into this country with open arms, who are hell bent on killing gays. All the while falsely accusing Christians of supporting their murderous agendas.

Since: Oct 10

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#20 Aug 16, 2012
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh--and if they are supporting groups doing those things, or similar, in Nigeria, does that count?
Gettin' pretty frustrated eh skimmer?

questions questions questions......LMAO

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#21 Aug 16, 2012
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a big fat lie that the gay groups are spreading around, trying to discredit Christians. Actually, the Christian groups are trying their best to STOP the gay murders there in those countries, so are other countries who chipping in money to try and BUY THEIR COMPLIANCE to not murder gays.
I don't know if you would call the New York times exactly a gay group:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/afric...

And have you forgotten the outcry from members of the Christian Right when Hillary Clinton spoke up for international rights for people who are gay?

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