Who do you support for Governor in Oh...
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#27352 Mar 30, 2014
Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right that our doctors are paid more. We also pay more for operations and for our medicine. How do other countries address this problem?
"...many OECD countries use strong regulation to set prices that hospitals can charge for different services, and some of them even set budgets for how much hospitals can spend. The quality of care delivered in hospitals in these countries are comparable to that in the U.S., and universities are still able to attract the best students to medicine."
"It is difficult to untangle precisely why prices are higher in the U.S., but two things are apparent: U.S. physicians get higher incomes than in other countries and the U.S. uses more expensive diagnostic procedures. More generally, with so many different kinds of insurance, no one organization has a strong incentive to cut out wasteful practices and ensure that all Americans get value for the very high levels of expenditure incurred when they are sick."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/health-co...
I know you hate government regulation, but the countries that regulate healthcare costs and have single payer systems seem to get equivalent service for much less money.
Well I have an extensive answer for all this, so I may post twice. Let me start off with a personal story:

Back in the early 80's when I was delivering and repairing home medical equipment, our company decided to open up a pharmacy. It wasn't a public pharmacy like Drug Mart or anything like that, it was more like a room where a pharmacist could mix prescriptions for our home patents.

After our Monday morning meeting, we all ran to the coffee pot and extended our own meeting. At the time, UPS was on strike so that was the topic for our coffee meeting.

As we discussed the situation, I took note of our newest employee--our pharmacist. She seemed to get angry to the point her face was turning red, but she didn't say a thing.

Finally in haste, she abruptly turned her back and quickly walked away. The RN looked at me as if to say "WTF did we say??"

The coffee crowd broke up and everybody went back to work except me. I was always the last to leave. LOL. At that point, the pharmacist returned. In her hand she had her Pharmacy Magazine. Still mad as hell, she shoved the magazine in my belly and told me to read the section of the article that she highlighted. The article stated (at the time) that the average pharmacist made about $63,000 per year in the US. A UPS package driver made about $57,000 per year.

She said "Do you know what I went through to become a pharmacist? Do you know what my parents went through? For what? To make five grand more than a UPS driver? And their union has the nerve to go on strike??? I should be on strike. If I were a young girl today having this information, I sure as hell wouldn't be here putting this pharmacy together. I would be there (pointing to the overhead door where UPS dropped off) delivering your packages."

This is what's known as the Domino Effect that impacted our healthcare professionals. You can't ask a pharmacist to go through all that school and expense to make nearly the same amount as a UPS worker.
Canton

Canton, OH

#27353 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet when you see all those "H"s and "L"s on the weather map, you think they represent Hispanics and Lesbians. Sorry Canton, you're no weather man and never will be. As for Buchanan, we don't even consider him anymore, actually, we never did. He didn't stand a chance as our presidential nominee.
I am certainly no more of a weatherman than you are. That's why I am smart enough to go with the 97% of the experts on climate science. Now let's hear why you choose the 3%, with most of whom work directly for the energy industry. Go ahead and explain why you think you know better than the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Better grab a bogus, already proven to be false, right wing propaganda link. Fox News will do. You got nothing, clown. You look like an idiot, considering you drive truck and think you personally know better than the climate experts.
Canton

Canton, OH

#27354 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet when you see all those "H"s and "L"s on the weather map, you think they represent Hispanics and Lesbians. Sorry Canton, you're no weather man and never will be. As for Buchanan, we don't even consider him anymore, actually, we never did. He didn't stand a chance as our presidential nominee.
I bet when you see 30,000 record high temperatures, you close your eyes. I bet when the scientists who accurately predicted the hottest decade in recorded history, you know. Back when you guys were saying climate change didn't exist at all, you went with what the Koch Brothers were telling you. I bet, when those same scientists accurately predicted that our changing climate would cause extreme artic weather patterns, you somehow were stupid enough to declare it a victory for your side. Your side being the spineless goons who crawl on their bellies for the big boss man, that is.

Pat Buchanan must have gotten swept under the rug with Sarah Palin, Michele Bachman, GW Bush, the cost of the war in Iraq, Reagan's 11% unemployment rating...
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#27355 Mar 30, 2014
Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right that our doctors are paid more. We also pay more for operations and for our medicine. How do other countries address this problem?
"...many OECD countries use strong regulation to set prices that hospitals can charge for different services, and some of them even set budgets for how much hospitals can spend. The quality of care delivered in hospitals in these countries are comparable to that in the U.S., and universities are still able to attract the best students to medicine."
"It is difficult to untangle precisely why prices are higher in the U.S., but two things are apparent: U.S. physicians get higher incomes than in other countries and the U.S. uses more expensive diagnostic procedures. More generally, with so many different kinds of insurance, no one organization has a strong incentive to cut out wasteful practices and ensure that all Americans get value for the very high levels of expenditure incurred when they are sick."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/health-co...
I know you hate government regulation, but the countries that regulate healthcare costs and have single payer systems seem to get equivalent service for much less money.
In the US, it takes anywhere from three to ten years for our FDA to approve a new drug. During this time, it takes millions of dollars of testing, paperwork and interaction with our federal government.

If and when a new drug finally gets approved, the drug company has to recoup all that money they invested. This is why you read or watch on television reporters stating that it costs a company fifty cents to make a pill, but they charge eight dollars.

Many of the new drugs never make it to market because of the FDA. So how does a drug company recoup those losses? They increase the price of their drugs already in the US market.

So why are these drugs cheaper in other countries? Easy enough to figure out, we took the hit for all the testing and paperwork. In another country, they just simply put it out on the market.

Then there is the liability issue that drug manufacturers don't have to deal with in other countries. In our country, the manufacture has to include X amount of money for legal defense and liability.

So the reason our prescriptions cost what they do is because of the FDA, all the drugs not approved by the FDA, and the extensive testing and red tape that it takes to get a drug approved. This information was passed on to me by my cousin in Maryland. She's a research doctor up there.
Pope Che Reagan Christ I

Lodi, OH

#27356 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I have an extensive answer for all this, so I may post twice. Let me start off with a personal story:
Back in the early 80's when I was delivering and repairing home medical equipment, our company decided to open up a pharmacy. It wasn't a public pharmacy like Drug Mart or anything like that, it was more like a room where a pharmacist could mix prescriptions for our home patents.
After our Monday morning meeting, we all ran to the coffee pot and extended our own meeting. At the time, UPS was on strike so that was the topic for our coffee meeting.
As we discussed the situation, I took note of our newest employee--our pharmacist. She seemed to get angry to the point her face was turning red, but she didn't say a thing.
Finally in haste, she abruptly turned her back and quickly walked away. The RN looked at me as if to say "WTF did we say??"
The coffee crowd broke up and everybody went back to work except me. I was always the last to leave. LOL. At that point, the pharmacist returned. In her hand she had her Pharmacy Magazine. Still mad as hell, she shoved the magazine in my belly and told me to read the section of the article that she highlighted. The article stated (at the time) that the average pharmacist made about $63,000 per year in the US. A UPS package driver made about $57,000 per year.
She said "Do you know what I went through to become a pharmacist? Do you know what my parents went through? For what? To make five grand more than a UPS driver? And their union has the nerve to go on strike??? I should be on strike. If I were a young girl today having this information, I sure as hell wouldn't be here putting this pharmacy together. I would be there (pointing to the overhead door where UPS dropped off) delivering your packages."
This is what's known as the Domino Effect that impacted our healthcare professionals. You can't ask a pharmacist to go through all that school and expense to make nearly the same amount as a UPS worker.
Why not? She should have bargained for better pay. You sure don't like the free market very much when you disagree with its results.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#27357 Mar 30, 2014
Canton wrote:
<quoted text>
I am certainly no more of a weatherman than you are. That's why I am smart enough to go with the 97% of the experts on climate science. Now let's hear why you choose the 3%, with most of whom work directly for the energy industry. Go ahead and explain why you think you know better than the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Better grab a bogus, already proven to be false, right wing propaganda link. Fox News will do. You got nothing, clown. You look like an idiot, considering you drive truck and think you personally know better than the climate experts.
LOL, well at least I know that it can get cold and mild in a 24 hour period. I also know that it's nothing abnormal. I also have my news websites all with a a weather section where I can look up the average temperatures for this time of year.

As for your 97% of scientists, it's already been proven phony, so when you bring it up, I just laugh. How can anybody take you seriously when you bring that up?
Pope Che Reagan Christ I

Lodi, OH

#27358 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
In the US, it takes anywhere from three to ten years for our FDA to approve a new drug. During this time, it takes millions of dollars of testing, paperwork and interaction with our federal government.
If and when a new drug finally gets approved, the drug company has to recoup all that money they invested. This is why you read or watch on television reporters stating that it costs a company fifty cents to make a pill, but they charge eight dollars.
Many of the new drugs never make it to market because of the FDA. So how does a drug company recoup those losses? They increase the price of their drugs already in the US market.
So why are these drugs cheaper in other countries? Easy enough to figure out, we took the hit for all the testing and paperwork. In another country, they just simply put it out on the market.
Then there is the liability issue that drug manufacturers don't have to deal with in other countries. In our country, the manufacture has to include X amount of money for legal defense and liability.
So the reason our prescriptions cost what they do is because of the FDA, all the drugs not approved by the FDA, and the extensive testing and red tape that it takes to get a drug approved. This information was passed on to me by my cousin in Maryland. She's a research doctor up there.
Wrong again. In this country, we let big business rape the consumer. In other countries, they don't.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#27359 Mar 30, 2014
Pope Che Reagan Christ I wrote:
<quoted text>
Why not? She should have bargained for better pay. You sure don't like the free market very much when you disagree with its results.
What really happened is that our country suffered a shortage of medical personnel. Our unions in this country made it unreasonable for anybody to go into the medical field unless it was a strong passion. So how do you attract people to this kind of work? You have to increase the wages for these professionals. Otherwise they will go to UPS, FedEx, Ford, the steel mills, or a number of other non-skilled employment.

Until this day, if you look in the want ads under medical, you will still see many, many positions not being filled. As we are forced to pay these workers much more money, it increases the cost of our medical care. I believe a pharmacist today makes somewhere in the 140 to 160 K range. An RN can move to just about anywhere in the country and not worry about finding a job. They are still in high demand.
woo-boy

Waverly, OH

#27360 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
In the US, it takes anywhere from three to ten years for our FDA to approve a new drug. During this time, it takes millions of dollars of testing, paperwork and interaction with our federal government.
If and when a new drug finally gets approved, the drug company has to recoup all that money they invested. This is why you read or watch on television reporters stating that it costs a company fifty cents to make a pill, but they charge eight dollars.
Many of the new drugs never make it to market because of the FDA. So how does a drug company recoup those losses? They increase the price of their drugs already in the US market.
So why are these drugs cheaper in other countries? Easy enough to figure out, we took the hit for all the testing and paperwork. In another country, they just simply put it out on the market.
Then there is the liability issue that drug manufacturers don't have to deal with in other countries. In our country, the manufacture has to include X amount of money for legal defense and liability.
So the reason our prescriptions cost what they do is because of the FDA, all the drugs not approved by the FDA, and the extensive testing and red tape that it takes to get a drug approved. This information was passed on to me by my cousin in Maryland. She's a research doctor up there.
You're just a pathetic cry baby.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#27361 Mar 30, 2014
Pope Che Reagan Christ I wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong again. In this country, we let big business rape the consumer. In other countries, they don't.
Is that what you want, a government that controls the private sector taking away competition and trusting them not to cheat the system for their own political advantage?

Competition controls prices, monopolies don't.
takingthemiddle

Celina, OH

#27362 Mar 30, 2014
Wish all the proponents of a one payer system would go to socialized countries to see "exactly" what it has done to the system. Why do you think many have come to the U.S. for operations? My best friend from Canada would have died had she waited for care there. You all need to get the real facts. These idiots who just took over your HC can't do anything efficiently. The tore down the house to fix the roof!
Pope Che Reagan Christ I

Lodi, OH

#27363 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
What really happened is that our country suffered a shortage of medical personnel. Our unions in this country made it unreasonable for anybody to go into the medical field unless it was a strong passion. So how do you attract people to this kind of work? You have to increase the wages for these professionals. Otherwise they will go to UPS, FedEx, Ford, the steel mills, or a number of other non-skilled employment.
Until this day, if you look in the want ads under medical, you will still see many, many positions not being filled. As we are forced to pay these workers much more money, it increases the cost of our medical care. I believe a pharmacist today makes somewhere in the 140 to 160 K range. An RN can move to just about anywhere in the country and not worry about finding a job. They are still in high demand.
And?
Pope Che Reagan Christ I

Lodi, OH

#27364 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that what you want, a government that controls the private sector taking away competition and trusting them not to cheat the system for their own political advantage?
Competition controls prices, monopolies don't.
It's telling that you equate "raping the consumer" with competition.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#27365 Mar 30, 2014
takingthemiddle wrote:
Wish all the proponents of a one payer system would go to socialized countries to see "exactly" what it has done to the system. Why do you think many have come to the U.S. for operations? My best friend from Canada would have died had she waited for care there. You all need to get the real facts. These idiots who just took over your HC can't do anything efficiently. The tore down the house to fix the roof!
Every healthcare system has it's problems. There is no "perfect" system that I'm aware of.

Canada spends over one billion dollars every year to have their citizens treated in the US. Our northern hospitals are full of Canadian patients. I read an article a few years back where it said Canada was starting to open up private medical care facilities and even selling healthcare insurance just like we do.

If you talk to people from Canada (as I do) the younger and middle-aged citizens will swear by their healthcare system. Elderly Canadian citizens have told me "keep what you have in this country."

Socialized healthcare systems are great for back problems, sprained ankles, broken bones, eye and ear problems. But when it comes to the serious stuff, that's where they fail to meet expectations. Canada uses cancer treatments we quit using over 20 years ago because our medications are more advanced.
Pops

Cincinnati, OH

#27366 Mar 30, 2014
Canton wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet when you see 30,000 record high temperatures, you close your eyes. I bet when the scientists who accurately predicted the hottest decade in recorded history, you know. Back when you guys were saying climate change didn't exist at all, you went with what the Koch Brothers were telling you..
WE may have had 30,000 record HIGH temps 500 million years ago just as we must have had 30,000 LOW temps 10,000 years ago for the last Ice Age or there would NOT have been glaciers down to the Missouri & Ohio rivers while Humans & animal species could NOT have crossed the Bering Sea from 1 continent to another & was wiping out Mammoths.& others. Climate change has existed for BILLIONS of years.
The technology & humankind simply did NOT record it for that duration of time.
Don't get me wrong on my position of "climate change" as opposed to "climate warming" any more than "revenue enhancement" is to "tax increases",
MY position is that humankind does NOT need to accelerate or contribute to 'climate change'. Let 'nature' take it's course whatever course that may be.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#27367 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>

So the reason our prescriptions cost what they do is because of the FDA, all the drugs not approved by the FDA, and the extensive testing and red tape that it takes to get a drug approved.
This is interesting because it is a testable idea. We can look at other countries that have equivalent agencies to the FDA, and see if their drug prices are also higher. If so, your idea might have merit.

In Canada, their version of the FDA is Health Canada. It has similar oversight of drugs. And yet, drugs are much cheaper there. Why do you think that is?

"The statistics reflect that prices of brand name drugs in the United States are significantly higher than in Canada, India, the UK and other countries, nearly all of which have price controls."

Why don't we have price controls, or even just allow Medicare to negotiate for the best prices?

"The pharmaceutical industry has thousands of lobbyists in Washington, D.C., that lobby Congress and protect their interests. The pharmaceutical industry spent $855 million, more than any other industry, on lobbying activities from 1998 to 2006, according to the non-partisan Center for Public Integrity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_dru...

Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#27368 Mar 30, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
What really happened is that our country suffered a shortage of medical personnel. Our unions in this country made it unreasonable for anybody to go into the medical field unless it was a strong passion. So how do you attract people to this kind of work? You have to increase the wages for these professionals. Otherwise they will go to UPS, FedEx, Ford, the steel mills, or a number of other non-skilled employment.
This is such confused logic that I barely know where to start. Again, your premise is a testable one. You suggest that when unions are strong, salaries of those in medicine will have to rise to compete (and, when unions are weak, salaries of those in medicine will fall.) This is not what we've seen. When unions were at the peak of their strength in the 1950s, did doctors salaries rise dramatically? No. And now, when unions are in profound decline, are doctor's salaries falling? No.
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
You have to increase the wages for these professionals. Otherwise they will go to UPS, FedEx, Ford, the steel mills, or a number of other non-skilled employment.
You believe the only reason that anyone works is to make money? Really?

For those with a choice, there are many jobs that are interesting and challenging, and the pay is only one consideration out of many. Working in medicine is difficult, requires many years of training, but the non-financial rewards are great. You get to see the difference you make in people's lives every day.

Have you ever been in a steel mill? I have. The work is hot, the environment is nasty. Every day you work there takes a terrible toll on your body, and it ages you prematurely. Outside of the money, there's not much to recommend it.
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
Otherwise they will go to UPS, FedEx, Ford, the steel mills, or a number of other non-skilled employment.
Why didn't you get one of those high paying, unskilled jobs?
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

#27369 Mar 31, 2014
Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
This is interesting because it is a testable idea. We can look at other countries that have equivalent agencies to the FDA, and see if their drug prices are also higher. If so, your idea might have merit.
In Canada, their version of the FDA is Health Canada. It has similar oversight of drugs. And yet, drugs are much cheaper there. Why do you think that is?
"The statistics reflect that prices of brand name drugs in the United States are significantly higher than in Canada, India, the UK and other countries, nearly all of which have price controls."
Why don't we have price controls, or even just allow Medicare to negotiate for the best prices?
"The pharmaceutical industry has thousands of lobbyists in Washington, D.C., that lobby Congress and protect their interests. The pharmaceutical industry spent $855 million, more than any other industry, on lobbying activities from 1998 to 2006, according to the non-partisan Center for Public Integrity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_dru...
research is very expensive.

Patents protect integrity to reclaim expenditure of research. The USA pays 100% of the research cost, and subsidies the world with medicine.

Only USA customers pay back the companies that develop new medicine. All other countries medicine pricing does not include research cost.....we pay that.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#27370 Mar 31, 2014
Reality Speaks wrote:
<quoted text>
research is very expensive.
Patents protect integrity to reclaim expenditure of research. The USA pays 100% of the research cost, and subsidies the world with medicine.
Only USA customers pay back the companies that develop new medicine. All other countries medicine pricing does not include research cost.....we pay that.
We are not the only nation developing new drugs (though we do develop a disproportionate share): "Although the United States comprises only 5% of the world's population, it accounts for 36% of worldwide research and development of pharmaceutical drugs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_dru...

Why should we subsidize drugs for the rest of the world? Why shouldn't we use our buying power to negotiate for the best prices?
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

#27371 Mar 31, 2014
Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
We are not the only nation developing new drugs (though we do develop a disproportionate share): "Although the United States comprises only 5% of the world's population, it accounts for 36% of worldwide research and development of pharmaceutical drugs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_dru...
Why should we subsidize drugs for the rest of the world? Why shouldn't we use our buying power to negotiate for the best prices?
The USA subsides the world with research and development.

Your number 36% is off by 60%.

Wikipedia is garbage in, garbage out.

you don't get it.....we are the money.....nobody else has any.

can I suggest you travel abroad.

I leave for Asia this Friday. Never been prior.
My passport has an addendum book because other is filled. I know differently.

PS: Next door neighbor is a Director at a drug manufacturer. Generic drugs don't pay for research. None.

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