Who do you support for Governor in Ohio in 2010?

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Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#24891
Feb 1, 2014
 
xxxrayted wrote:
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Religion had their philosophers as well. But how were they different than scientists? They had a theory sometimes wrong and sometimes right.
No, in religion you have the received word of God, not a theory. When a scientist's theory is proved to be wrong, the scientist accepts that, and moves on. The church will reject the proof as heresy, and punish you. When the church was in control, those punishments would include torture and death. That's the possibility Galileo faced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisit...
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
This planet and all the beings on it is just too perfect to happen without somebody or something planning it.
And yet, the most perfect being in your conception is the Creator, but no one planned him.
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
I would sooner believe that we are an experiment planet created by aliens of a much more advanced life than I am believing in some theory that we were once apes and developed throughout the centuries.
Actually, evolution says that both man and ape have a common ancestor, not that man descended from apes. You can choose not to believe that (despite the evidence of the fossil record and genetic studies), but that puts you at odds with the scientific community. Lucky for you, they don't enforce their beliefs with torture and death.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#24892
Feb 1, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Lie. Again.
I actually said I have no idea how God or matter came into existence. I said that our world is too complex to have been created by happenstance, and that schools should be allowed to teach both evolution and ID.
Schools are allowed to teach the religious version of creation, in both literature and religion classes. But they can't teach it as science, because there is no evidence to support it, and much evidence against it.

Do you feel that churches should be compelled to preach evolution, or does your sense of "fairness" stop there?

"Evolution is also one of the most misunderstood and controversial concepts in the eyes of the general public. This situation is unfortunate, because the controversy surrounding evolution is unnecessary. Resistance to evolution stems in part from misunderstanding science and how it is distinct from religion. Science and religion provide different ways of knowing the Earth and universe. Science proceeds by testing hypotheses and thus is restricted to natural, testable explanations. By definition, science is unable to confirm or deny the existence or work of a Creator; such questions are beyond the realm of science. As a scientific concept, evolution therefore can make no reference to a Creator. Many people of faith, including scientists, find no conflict between evolution and their religion; in fact, many religious denominations have issued statements supporting evolution. Science and religion need not conflict."

http://www.agiweb.org/news/evolution/foreword...
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#24893
Feb 1, 2014
 
"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points…. Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies — which was neither planned nor sought — constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”
— Pope John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, October 22, 1996.

http://www.nas.edu/evolution/StatementsReligi...
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

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#24894
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Canton wrote:
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I am the poster child for all things American. You however claimed you were going to flee the country if Obama got elected. That makes you both a liar and traitor in one fell swoop. Now let's combine that with the fact that you completely agreed with Timothy McVeigh on just about every topic and you have the real face of domestic terrorists in America. Now about that check list of fascism that your agenda matches to the letter. Also, let's not forget your "Conservative Hero", Vladimir Putin. You truly are a patriot.
you are a loon
Canton

Canton, OH

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#24895
Feb 1, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Lie. Again.
I actually said I have no idea how God or matter came into existence. I said that our world is too complex to have been created by happenstance, and that schools should be allowed to teach both evolution and ID. You, on the other hand, want to completely shut out other people's ideas ... just like a good little fascist.
Nope, just want what the founders of this nation wanted. No religious favoritism in government. It would be fun to see your faces though if the Hindu or Islamic creation stories were taught in your children's science classes. Oh how you guys would cry of the injustice. The real fascist loves religion and politics walking hand and hand. You know, exactly like your fascist agenda. You guys thought you had a monopoly on god and country. You don't. Get over it.
Canton

Canton, OH

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#24896
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Reality Speaks wrote:
<quoted text>
you are a loon
Yet I don't make public death threats on an online forum like you have. Considering you have a zero percent hit rate on anything you claim, your word is worthless to any thinking person. Also, that whole silence of the lambs vibe you put out is nothing short of creepy.
Canton

Canton, OH

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#24897
Feb 1, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Lie. Again.
I actually said I have no idea how God or matter came into existence. I said that our world is too complex to have been created by happenstance, and that schools should be allowed to teach both evolution and ID. You, on the other hand, want to completely shut out other people's ideas ... just like a good little fascist.
Keep your weird, middle eastern and now corporate sponsored religion away from the American children.
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#24898
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Old Guy wrote:
Schools are allowed to teach the religious version of creation, in both literature and religion classes. But they can't teach it as science, because there is no evidence to support it, and much evidence against it.
First, Intelligent Design isn't Creationism or a religion. You would do well to educate yourself on this subject.

Secondly, people who believe in God approach science from a different perspective than secular ones. For example, evolution scientists were convinced that "Junk DNA" served no purpose whatsoever. For 25 years they wrote about it in textbooks, and taught it to countless school kids. They were wrong.(Imagine that.) If the scientists had approached the subject from an ID perspective, they would have known that everything has been made for a reason, and eventually the reason will be discovered.
Do you feel that churches should be compelled to preach evolution, or does your sense of "fairness" stop there?
That depends. Does the govt force your children to go to church?
"... Resistance to evolution stems in part from misunderstanding science and how it is distinct from religion.... By definition, science is unable to confirm or deny the existence or work of a Creator; such questions are beyond the realm of science. As a scientific concept, evolution therefore can make no reference to a Creator ..."
Who has defined science? Maybe the problem isn't with science, but with narrow-minded, dogmatic evolutionists who are locked into an ideology that they're trying to force on everyone else. Nature doesn't limit scientific exploration, evidence-gathering, and broad thinking. People do.

According to science's own laws, it's impossible for us to be here. 1st Law of Thermodynamics: Matter & energy can change form, but they cannot increase or decrease. If there was no matter & energy to begin with, there's no matter & energy now. Yet, here we are.

And then there's the 2nd Law: Everything moves toward higher entropy (disorder). It's impossible for nature to accidentally fall into perfect order and produce this infinitely complex world and the universe around us. Yet, here we are.

So, there are two choices: A) The Laws of Thermodynamics are wrong or B) There is an Intelligent Designer who owns the laws.
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#24899
Feb 1, 2014
 
Canton wrote:
Nope, just want what the founders of this nation wanted. No religious favoritism in government. It would be fun to see your faces though if the Hindu or Islamic creation stories were taught in your children's science classes. Oh how you guys would cry of the injustice. The real fascist loves religion and politics walking hand and hand. You know, exactly like your fascist agenda. You guys thought you had a monopoly on god and country. You don't. Get over it.
Yes, I know how much you respect the founders. That's why you called me a "powdered wigged, silver spoon racist" (post #24266).

I haven't been discussing the teaching of religion in school. Do you have any other melodramatic, straw man arguments you want to throw in the mix?
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#24900
Feb 1, 2014
 
Old Guy wrote:
"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points…. Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies — which was neither planned nor sought — constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”
— Pope John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, October 22, 1996.
http://www.nas.edu/evolution/StatementsReligi...
You and chimpy keep using popes to influence my opinions. You really couldn't pick a group of people less influential, except maybe democrats. I have no use for the catholic religion. They may believe in the same God as I do, and in Christ as his son, but that's basically where the similarities end. I don't pray to Mary and a bunch of saints, and I don't ask a priest for forgiveness as though he's God. That's basically paganism.

I believe the creation story as told in the bible. But I believe the earth is older than that. It was made before the 1st day of creation. It was without form and void, and it was covered with water. I think it's odd that the earth was so chaotic ... seemingly unlike how God created everything else that followed. So, who knows what happened before Adam's race, or what lived here before then. Maybe a flood or Ice Age wiped everything out, and it was left a mess.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#24901
Feb 2, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
First, Intelligent Design isn't Creationism or a religion. You would do well to educate yourself on this subject.
How did you educate yourself on this topic? You seem quite sure of yourself, yet I don't think you've had much formal education in science at all. Your views seemed informed by a conservative religious orthodoxy and not science. Why don't you point me to a scientific source that can hopefully explain your point of view better than you?

I'll do the same:

"Intelligent design (ID) is a form of creationism presented by its proponents as a theory that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." It is a version of the theological argument from design for the existence of God presented as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins" rather than "a religious-based idea".

The leading proponents of this version of the argument are associated with the Discovery Institute, a politically conservative think tank based in the United States, and believe the designer to be the Christian deity. Their concepts of irreducible complexity and specified complexity propose that certain biological features are too complex to be the result of natural processes, and proponents therefore conclude that these features are evidence of design. The scientific community considers intelligent design a pseudoscience because it lacks empirical support and offers no tenable hypotheses. Detailed scientific examination has rebutted the claims that evolutionary explanations are inadequate, and this premise of intelligent design, that evidence against evolution constitutes evidence for design, has been criticized as a false dichotomy. From the outset, ID proponents have sought to overturn the methodological naturalism inherent in modern science, proposing that it be replaced by "theistic realism" or "theistic science" in which ID presents a broadly theistic understanding of nature."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_desi...

Since: Jan 13

Lexington, KY

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#24902
Feb 2, 2014
 
So if this was to be taught in schools how would they present it, what would the lesson plans be, educational tools, etc.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#24903
Feb 2, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe the creation story as told in the bible.
Since you believe the Biblical creation story, maybe you can clear something up for me. When it says in Genesis 1:3: "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light", what was the source of that light? I ask this question because Genesis goes on to say that the Sun and stars weren't created until the 4th day.

"13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
woo-boy

Waverly, OH

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#24904
Feb 2, 2014
 

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mutt wrote:
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You and chimpy keep using popes to influence my opinions. You really couldn't pick a group of people less influential, except maybe democrats. I have no use for the catholic religion. They may believe in the same God as I do, and in Christ as his son, but that's basically where the similarities end. I don't pray to Mary and a bunch of saints, and I don't ask a priest for forgiveness as though he's God. That's basically paganism.
I believe the creation story as told in the bible. But I believe the earth is older than that. It was made before the 1st day of creation. It was without form and void, and it was covered with water. I think it's odd that the earth was so chaotic ... seemingly unlike how God created everything else that followed. So, who knows what happened before Adam's race, or what lived here before then. Maybe a flood or Ice Age wiped everything out, and it was left a mess.
That reminds of a quote that Mark Twain put out there about the bible:

"So you believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards,witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that we are the ones who need help?" Oh yeah, how do you split a sea in half?
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

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#24905
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Canton wrote:
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Keep your weird, middle eastern and now corporate sponsored religion away from the American children.
or what?
Canton

Canton, OH

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#24906
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Reality Speaks wrote:
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or what?
Or we'll be seeing you on To Catch a Predator.
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

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#24907
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Canton wrote:
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Or we'll be seeing you on To Catch a Predator.
another low ratings show.....never heard of it.

I am not worried.

“Seven Days In May”

Since: Oct 13

Hilliard, OH

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#24908
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Canton wrote:
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Wow...after stammering "Mission Accomplished", you really want to take it there? Oh, and...how many US soldiers died because Obama sent them off to attack the wrong country? Bet you were as quiet as a church mouse through all that. Also, could you go ahead and give us a link to the "coalition of 'Blacks for Obama'" thing you were talking about? Bet you can't.
When are you going to apologize to "XYZ"?
http://l.barackobama.com/african-americans/
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#24909
Feb 2, 2014
 
Old Guy,

If you aren't able to defend your views about evolution, just say so, and we'll end our discussion. Otherwise, don't ignore legitimate scientific arguments I've made. If the theory of evolution is sound, you shouldn't have any trouble shutting me down quite handily with just the facts supporting it ... especially since you've had formal training in science.

If you want to learn about ID, I would suggest an ID website. The following page will not only explain the theory, but also how proponents think it should/should not be taught in public school.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/files...

Many IDists believe that it shouldn't be taught in schools. They would be happy if evolution was just taught objectively, rather than as a fact. I, on the other hand, think both theories should be explained.
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#24910
Feb 2, 2014
 

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woo-boy wrote:
That reminds of a quote that Mark Twain put out there about the bible:
"So you believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards,witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that we are the ones who need help?" Oh yeah, how do you split a sea in half?
Old Guy seems to be unable to answer a simple question about the creation of the universe and evolution. Maybe you'll have better luck. Here we go ...

Based on the first 2 laws of thermodynamics, there should be no matter or energy in existence at all, and if there was – which is impossible -- it would be incapable of randomly achieving higher and higher degrees of order and complexity. Why do you believe the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to the creation of the universe and evolution?

If you don't have any guesses, maybe you can find a Mark Twain quote about it or something.

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