Che Reagan Christ

Lodi, OH

#95 Mar 19, 2013
Seriouslady wrote:
<quoted text>
I AM NOT A LAWYER,
That is where your post should have ended.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96 Mar 19, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't watched CNN's coverage of this, nor I have read much of the criticism, beyond the headlines themselves. But as someone who works in the juvenile justice system on a daily basis, I'll offer this:
Given that immature teenaged athletes are placed on pedestals in a small town such as Steubenville, and apparently then get granted numerous free passes for their illicit behaviors, its not surprising that they then grow into a unjustified and irrational sense of entitlement as a result of their membership in the "club" of high school athletics.
Success in the athletic arena strokes their egos far beyond their capacity for empathy, which hasn't caught up to their athletic skills. Certainly, parents play the most key role in restraining their behaviors and helping them maintain priorities that take the rights of others into account, but these kids didn't grow up being home-schooled, in a vacuum. "Society" (schools/community) in that small town also played a key role in creating their senses of entitlement.
So if that is what the folks on CNN were trying to say, I agree with it, to some extent. Trying them as juveniles was the right call. The circumstances that exist in this case are the type suitable for trying kids as "kids"...You hope they "get it", and become productive adults regardless of their serious mistakes in judgment as teens. Its reasonable to have that hope.
Placing them in the adult justice and prison systems would completely and unfairly absolve society of its role in creating their sense of entitlement. Not to mention approach the line of violating the 8th Amendment.
woof
I've read some really great analysis that talks about society's failure to this boys as a failure to educate and properly model the changed environment the boys exist in.

In earlier years (and quite nearly in this case), these boys could have expected to walk away from this untouched, with negative effects only to the victim.

These boys were taught to expect to be permitted this range of activity. They were taught that they could treat women like objects and taught that they could expect no repercussions. Their messages pretty clearly communicated their expectations of this.

As the rights of women improve and are increasingly better defended in cases like this, men who have been taught that these crimes are their birthright are left feeling punished for something they've been led to think is permitted.

By allowing to boys to continue to expect unrealistic and often criminal ranges of access to women as objects a culture in which these crimes are committed is continually fostered. The disconnect between what these boys expect and the new, more just reality is what creates the gap in which even the monsters are seen as a strange breed of victim.
Che Reagan Christ

Lodi, OH

#97 Mar 19, 2013
Seriouslady wrote:
<quoted text>
Think 'punitive damages.'
Look if someone trespasses on your property and breaks their leg, you're going to get sued.
Brief story: A man from DE was riding backroads on his motorcycle up in PA. He had an accident and really wracked himself up. A civil suit was then filed against my boss and another individual, the plaintiff and his wife's claim being that he was distracted by looking at their horses in the field and that caused the accident.
The boss and I met with the insurance company's attorney's once. We had nothing to tell him, didn't know the guy, horses were properly fenced. I have no idea how it ended, if they paid him a settlement, or if it went to trial or not...no idea. Nor do I care. I deal with these BS suits all the time.
This girl and her family have a case.
You simply can't bring yourself to shut up about things you know absolutely nothing about, can you? Jesus you must be insufferable to be around.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#98 Mar 19, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
SL, the really deep pockets are in the pantaloons of the school board.
Come anywhere close to showing that they created and promoted an atmosphere conducive to permitting and condoning rape (prior hx of similar alcohol fueled sexual assaults/incidents and coach/AD looking the other way) through thorough discovery and hold out for the settlement.
woof
A bulldog lawyer will know where the deep pockets are. I don't think they have to prove the parents promoted it, just that negligence that allowed it to happen. Laws are different in every state.

There a a lot of alleys to persue. And if the parents participated in the 'social media' slamming of the victim.........

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#99 Mar 19, 2013
Babs wrote:
Seems to me as if there was contributory negligence on everyone's part. Boys, girls, parents, whoever supplied the alcohol, whoever supplied the party venue. Everyone.
Sue all the bastards. It's such a high profile case, I'm sure they'll have no problem getting a GOOD lawyer to take it.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#100 Mar 19, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't watched CNN's coverage of this, nor I have read much of the criticism, beyond the headlines themselves. But as someone who works in the juvenile justice system on a daily basis, I'll offer this:
Given that immature teenaged athletes are placed on pedestals in a small town such as Steubenville, and apparently then get granted numerous free passes for their illicit behaviors, its not surprising that they then grow into a unjustified and irrational sense of entitlement as a result of their membership in the "club" of high school athletics.
Success in the athletic arena strokes their egos far beyond their capacity for empathy, which hasn't caught up to their athletic skills. Certainly, parents play the most key role in restraining their behaviors and helping them maintain priorities that take the rights of others into account, but these kids didn't grow up being home-schooled, in a vacuum. "Society" (schools/community) in that small town also played a key role in creating their senses of entitlement.
So if that is what the folks on CNN were trying to say, I agree with it, to some extent. Trying them as juveniles was the right call. The circumstances that exist in this case are the type suitable for trying kids as "kids"...You hope they "get it", and become productive adults regardless of their serious mistakes in judgment as teens. Its reasonable to have that hope.
Placing them in the adult justice and prison systems would completely and unfairly absolve society of its role in creating their sense of entitlement. Not to mention approach the line of violating the 8th Amendment.
woof
Well, Duke, you must not have a daughter, sister, wife, mother..........any female in your life. But I don't think I am anymore outraged than many of the males posters on here.

"Absolve society of creating"???? Go get a job on CNN.

Harsh punishment for the criminals and those who assisted through negligence will send a stronger message to others coming up behind them that they pay for their mistakes. You want to put them in counseling and coddle them?
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

#101 Mar 19, 2013
Babs wrote:
Seems to me as if there was contributory negligence on everyone's part. Boys, girls, parents, whoever supplied the alcohol, whoever supplied the party venue. Everyone.
I agree.

There are a good few adults guilty of contributing to this rape.

Further charges need warranted for arrest.

Contributing to a minor just a beginning.
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

#103 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
So instead of criminal trial and punishment you want have an ambulance chaser force them to go on welfare. Wow the tax payers are getting screwed twice that way and we didn't even get an invite to the kegger.
honestly hard labor camp for the rapists, and those who watched and did nothing can operate the wheelbarrow.

can we dig a transcontinental canal next to I70? It also provides drainage and irrigation. Lots of water storage ponds available to accept flood waters.

Maybe at the same time another resembling a moat across the mexican border with a 25' concrete dividing wall with turbines on the American side generating electric for the surveillance equipment required to electrify the fence and camera's to catch the action.

We have lots of prisoners, so make them earn their keep.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#105 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
So instead of criminal trial and punishment you want have an ambulance chaser force them to go on welfare. Wow the tax payers are getting screwed twice that way and we didn't even get an invite to the kegger.
The criminal remedies have been applied to the rapists. Now, since the parents and apparently, individuals in the town of Stubenville, enabled this to happen, glorified the rapists and tormented the victim and her family further, yes, I would persue a civil suit against anyone who's negligence allowed this to happen, refused to cooperate with the investigation or inflicted further pain.

Not all attorneys are ambulance chaser's , Spook. On the contrarty, I would want the most respected and ethical attorney, good trial lawyer and smart, that I could hire.

And in doing so, do you think other parents and kids might be learn something about taking responsibility?

Two girls were arrested yesterday for threatening the victim. Does she now have to go through life looking over her shoulder for any would be 'football fan' who thinks the rapists got a bad deal?

I know it costs taxpayer money to operate the courts. This suit may have 'legs.' And it has moral imperative. Better than some of the ridiculous, frivilous ones I've seen take up the court's time.

I see an opportunity to speak to the whole country on this high profile case.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#106 Mar 19, 2013
Reality Speaks wrote:
<quoted text>
honestly hard labor camp for the rapists, and those who watched and did nothing can operate the wheelbarrow.
can we dig a transcontinental canal next to I70? It also provides drainage and irrigation. Lots of water storage ponds available to accept flood waters.
Maybe at the same time another resembling a moat across the mexican border with a 25' concrete dividing wall with turbines on the American side generating electric for the surveillance equipment required to electrify the fence and camera's to catch the action.
We have lots of prisoners, so make them earn their keep.
Ah, if it were so. But they'll go to juvenile detention. Be 'heros' amoung the other punks, finish getting their HS education, at your expense, and play ball in the yard until their release, which I doubt will mean serving their full term.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#107 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
That is the problem with this system. Why should a person who owns property be liable for the actions of others on said property. The kids were not.held down and parents pour alcohol down their throats and then tossed them a drunk girl to finger bang for youtube.
Criminal actions are one thing but to have a second bite at the apple through civil action is disgusting for lack of a better term.
You will be shocked, but I agree with you, not in this case, but generally. Most civil suits are frivilous and just a fishing expedition for a cash settlement.

In England they have a 'loser pays' system for civil suits. If you sue someone and lose, you must reimburse them the cost of their defense. If we installed that kind of tort reform here, most of the frivilous lawsuits would go away and lower the expense of insurance, the courts and free up the courts for more pressing cases. Also, imagine how it would drop the cost of malpractice insurance, not only for doctors, but every 'craft.' So cost of goods and services could go down.

Trial attorney's have too strong of a lobby in DC. We'll never get tort reform here.

In this rape case, given the heinous actions by others before, during and after the rape, I think a civil suit is not out of bounds.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#109 Mar 19, 2013
Seriouslady wrote:
<quoted text>
You will be shocked, but I agree with you, not in this case, but generally. Most civil suits are frivilous and just a fishing expedition for a cash settlement.
In England they have a 'loser pays' system for civil suits. If you sue someone and lose, you must reimburse them the cost of their defense. If we installed that kind of tort reform here, most of the frivilous lawsuits would go away and lower the expense of insurance, the courts and free up the courts for more pressing cases. Also, imagine how it would drop the cost of malpractice insurance, not only for doctors, but every 'craft.' So cost of goods and services could go down.
Trial attorney's have too strong of a lobby in DC. We'll never get tort reform here.
In this rape case, given the heinous actions by others before, during and after the rape, I think a civil suit is not out of bounds.
What's with all the misplaced apostrophes the last day or so. Is this new?

I've seen peoples' wit wax and wane but never literacy level, before.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#110 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
When you brin in civil liability then the girl and her parents have to bear part of the blame.
I would love to hear you expand a bit more on this. Walk me through what sort of case these could be addressed in and how and to whom you imagine damages being addressed.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#111 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
There are criminal charges that can be filed and have not as yet. Hendering prosecution distribution of pornographic materiales etc etc. When you brin in civil liability then the girl and her parents have to bear part of the blame. Why was a west Virginia kid not at home but instead was drinking in Ohio. When civil liability is used instead of criminal it becomes less aboit facts and more about feelings in cases like this.
It's hard to get much information on the case from DE. You know many more details than I do. I have no idea what other charges may be coming up or against whom, or even the details of the rape itself.

Yes, at 16, my parents would have known where I was and grounded me for life if they caught me drinking.

idk, Spook. My feeling is it should be taken further if for no other reason than to set an example for other parents and teenagers across the country. I agree many parents are way too interested in being 'buddies' with their kids rather than strict parents.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#113 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. Some things should be handled outside of a room full of parasites aka court. So parents are sued and as Duke suggested the school board. Then what the next time this happens sue the neighbors because they could have been nosey and reported the party? What about the beer distributor? The beer maker? Maybe the State liquor control? No those that fiinger banged the girl and those that watched are the criminals. Want stiffen the penalties fine but.to go looking for cash is wrong.
I agree. The liability ends with the property owners where the crime occured, whomever supplied the liquor to juveniles and those who impeded or delayed justice.

Neighbors, liquor store, etc. are exempt from neglience.(Unless they sold to minors) I don't see how the school could be held culpable, but I don't know the details.

I don't look at it as a hunt for cash, Spook. I'd be surprised if there is any. I look at it as an attempt to hold everyone involved responsible and to, hopefully, set an example for others so it doesn't happen in PA or CA next week.

There's no amount of money that can ever erase the memories of that girl and her parents. This crime, and the actions afterwards, to me, are just chilling.

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

#114 Mar 19, 2013
You cannot kill a Spook wrote:
<quoted text>
There are criminal charges that can be filed and have not as yet. Hendering prosecution distribution of pornographic materiales etc etc.
Knowing of a felony and failing to report it is a crime in Ohio.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.22
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#115 Mar 19, 2013
Seriouslady wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. The liability ends with the property owners where the crime occured, whomever supplied the liquor to juveniles and those who impeded or delayed justice.
Neighbors, liquor store, etc. are exempt from neglience.(Unless they sold to minors) I don't see how the school could be held culpable, but I don't know the details.
I don't look at it as a hunt for cash, Spook. I'd be surprised if there is any. I look at it as an attempt to hold everyone involved responsible and to, hopefully, set an example for others so it doesn't happen in PA or CA next week.
There's no amount of money that can ever erase the memories of that girl and her parents. This crime, and the actions afterwards, to me, are just chilling.
Clearly, there's a lot you don't know, and you'd be better off not speaking about because of that.

Every single teacher and coach employed by the school board are classified under Ohio statutory law as what is known as "mandatory reporters" who are obligated under the law to make a report to the police or children's services agency if they have a reasonable basis to believe that a child has been victimized by abuse or neglect.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2151.421

From the statute:

"(M) Whoever violates division (A) of this section is liable for compensatory and exemplary damages to the child who would have been the subject of the report that was not made. A person who brings a civil action or proceeding pursuant to this division against a person who is alleged to have violated division (A)(1) of this section may use in the action or proceeding reports of other incidents of known or suspected abuse or neglect, provided that any information in a report that would identify the child who is the subject of the report or the maker of the report, if the maker is not the defendant or an agent or employee of the defendant, has been redacted."

If a plaintiff can show that the school board or its administrators engaged in a pattern of ignoring the failures to report abuse, they can and should be held liable for their actions.

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#116 Mar 19, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Knowing of a felony and failing to report it is a crime in Ohio.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.22
That statute runs right up against the fifth amendment, and the key word in it is the word "knowing"...a legal term.

Difficult to pursue a conviction, in my opinion.

Much easier to pursue civil remedies against mandatory reporters, who are obligated to report as a result of their professional employment.

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#117 Mar 19, 2013
Seriouslady wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, Duke, you must not have a daughter, sister, wife, mother..........any female in your life. But I don't think I am anymore outraged than many of the males posters on here.
"Absolve society of creating"???? Go get a job on CNN.
Harsh punishment for the criminals and those who assisted through negligence will send a stronger message to others coming up behind them that they pay for their mistakes. You want to put them in counseling and coddle them?
Well, you would be wrong. I have three adult daughters and one juvenile son.

My opinions on this issue are informed not just by my profession, but by my experience raising children, as a parent.

You seem to think these kids will not receive punishment, simply because they're in the juvenile system instead of the adult one. You also seem to think that they're beyond repair.

You're wrong.

If they're housed in the local JDC and violate out, they'll end up in the custody of the DYS, not a pleasant prospect in Ohio.

Beyond that, they'll receive intensive rehabilitation services directed specifically at the issues that brought them before the court, under the close supervision of the local Juvenile Court judge...things that won't happen in the adult system. They'll be labeled as JSO's and be required to report semi-annually until the court is satisfied that they've been rehabilitated.

Yeah...I stand by what I said. These kids didn't simply walk out of the care of their parents and decide to rape a girl after getting her drunk. Their position as honored athletes in that small community gave them carte blanche to act as they did, and I don't doubt for a second that this wasn't the first such incident. I firmly believe that there are adults employed in the schools in that community who had the ability to report what they knew a long time ago, and failed to do so.

They deserve to be held accountable.$$$$$$

woof
Straight shoota

Akron, OH

#118 Mar 19, 2013
She broke the law first by knowingly and willfully consuming alcohol and not being of legal age. She had no regard for the law then, why does she want the law to protect her now?

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