Brendan Eich and the New American Tot...

“Queen of my domain”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#41 Apr 5, 2014
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
But he wasn't fired. He stepped down, in response to feedback from the market and his labour force.
It's a victory for capitalism. It worked, quite well in this instance, to move a corporate player to the will of the people he serves.
Typically, I'd agree with you--on the surface of the matter.

He stepped down in a matter that was one of public opinion over a private matter.

Andrew Sullivan, of the Daily Dish:“The whole episode disgusts me – as it should disgust anyone interested in a tolerant and diverse society,” he wrote.“If this is the gay rights movement today – hounding our opponents with a fanaticism more like the religious right than anyone else – then count me out.”

I agree. For liberals who whine about "tolerance" in a diverse society, it really appears to me to be saying "we want you to be tolerant as you are told to be." Eich is a technical wunderkind, and now OKCupid wants to make a $1K donation to prop 8 to be his legacy? How insanel Is it no longer possible to keep your private life and private thoughts private?

I would particularly invite you to read the final paragraph of this article from Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/0...

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#42 Apr 5, 2014
gokeefe wrote:
<quoted text>
Typically, I'd agree with you--on the surface of the matter.
He stepped down in a matter that was one of public opinion over a private matter.
Andrew Sullivan, of the Daily Dish:“The whole episode disgusts me – as it should disgust anyone interested in a tolerant and diverse society,” he wrote.“If this is the gay rights movement today – hounding our opponents with a fanaticism more like the religious right than anyone else – then count me out.”
I agree. For liberals who whine about "tolerance" in a diverse society, it really appears to me to be saying "we want you to be tolerant as you are told to be." Eich is a technical wunderkind, and now OKCupid wants to make a $1K donation to prop 8 to be his legacy? How insanel Is it no longer possible to keep your private life and private thoughts private?
I would particularly invite you to read the final paragraph of this article from Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/0...
You would like to see an environment in which the public isn't free to express their response to public actions taken by individuals by avoiding doing business with them and disseminating free speech protected opinions to support their actions?

What would you suggest instead? What limits would you like to place on the public's ability to respond to public corporate actions they disagree with? Boycotts seem to not be acceptable for you?

Since: Mar 14

Hilliard, OH

#43 Apr 5, 2014
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
You would like to see an environment in which the public isn't free to express their response to public actions taken by individuals by avoiding doing business with them and disseminating free speech protected opinions to support their actions?
What would you suggest instead? What limits would you like to place on the public's ability to respond to public corporate actions they disagree with? Boycotts seem to not be acceptable for you?
Worked just fine for Chick-Fil-A:

Chick-fil-A widened its lead over rival KFC as the No. 1 chicken chain in the U.S. last year.

Preliminary data from food industry researcher Technomic shows that Atlanta-based Chick-Fil-A held the lead because its locations are much busier, even though there are far fewer of them.

Chick-fil-A first surpassed KFC as the top chicken chain in 2012. KFC is still much bigger globally.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/chic...

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#44 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>Worked just fine for Chick-Fil-A:
Chick-fil-A widened its lead over rival KFC as the No. 1 chicken chain in the U.S. last year.
Preliminary data from food industry researcher Technomic shows that Atlanta-based Chick-Fil-A held the lead because its locations are much busier, even though there are far fewer of them.
Chick-fil-A first surpassed KFC as the top chicken chain in 2012. KFC is still much bigger globally.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/chic...
Yeah, I'm not quite sure why folks are pretending outrage in this case, when voting for businesses with your voice and wallet have been fairly well established as both a integral part of our economic model and our current culture.

I'm thinking it's just the less robust thinkers on the losing side of the the culture war mewling when the free market doesn't back up their silent majority.

I love the case, having met with some Mozillans at a fund raiser a few months back. They've got this incredible corporate culture that I would love to see replicated across more of the working world. If you've been following any of them on twitter, there was this great outburst from the rank and file employees (and even the open source volunteers) call for him to step down. This is the type of labor movement I would love to see become more commonplace. Highly skilled, highly developed employees in carefully curated company cultures can now collectively act to institute change at the highest levels through polite discourse. It would be great so see that come to more of the market!

Since: Mar 14

Hilliard, OH

#45 Apr 5, 2014
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I'm not quite sure why folks are pretending outrage in this case, when voting for businesses with your voice and wallet have been fairly well established as both a integral part of our economic model and our current culture.
I'm thinking it's just the less robust thinkers on the losing side of the the culture war mewling when the free market doesn't back up their silent majority.
I love the case, having met with some Mozillans at a fund raiser a few months back. They've got this incredible corporate culture that I would love to see replicated across more of the working world. If you've been following any of them on twitter, there was this great outburst from the rank and file employees (and even the open source volunteers) call for him to step down. This is the type of labor movement I would love to see become more commonplace. Highly skilled, highly developed employees in carefully curated company cultures can now collectively act to institute change at the highest levels through polite discourse. It would be great so see that come to more of the market!
Until it operates in reverse and your ox is gored. Because I guarantee that as we speak, databases are being searched for "Gotcha!" moments. Wait until it's discovered, for example, that a female executive at Chick-Fil-A wrote a $1000 check to NARAL and "resigns." You people will have a fit, and you won't call it capitalism in action...you'll scream "Corporate fascism!" "Thought control!" "Illegal!"

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#46 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>Until it operates in reverse and your ox is gored. Because I guarantee that as we speak, databases are being searched for "Gotcha!" moments. Wait until it's discovered, for example, that a female executive at Chick-Fil-A wrote a $1000 check to NARAL and "resigns." You people will have a fit, and you won't call it capitalism in action...you'll scream "Corporate fascism!" "Thought control!" "Illegal!"
So, to recap, you're completely fine with this happening at Moz and decided to make a shrill thread about it because you think people with other political opinions wouldn't be happy about the situation, should it happen with different players?

That's cool.

“Queen of my domain”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#47 Apr 5, 2014
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
You would like to see an environment in which the public isn't free to express their response to public actions taken by individuals by avoiding doing business with them and disseminating free speech protected opinions to support their actions?
What would you suggest instead? What limits would you like to place on the public's ability to respond to public corporate actions they disagree with? Boycotts seem to not be acceptable for you?
You think "I seem." Unusual.

You are free to express your opinion. There are consequences to expressing one's opinion. Whether the consequences match the situation or the ethics, is a completely different situation. I see it as a matter that some fallout of this situation was entirely unethical. Not to mention, the donation happened SIX years ago and was for a minor amount. And did you happen to read the entirety of this article? Of course not! I'll give you the real gist of the situation:

"Though I am a strong supporter of gay rights and marriage equality and I thought Proposition 8 was a travesty, my first reaction to the Eich news was the same as Andrew Sullivan’s: If Eich wanted privately to support that bill, but didn’t discriminate against gay employees or advocate the company quit providing benefits to domestic partners, then he shouldn’t be fired for his views."

You "seem" to imply that unless someone agrees publicly with a stance, or donates to specific political causes, they must be "good" or "bad." Eich performed NO discrimination in this situation, neither did Mozilla. Comparing this situation to Carla Hale is ridiculous. Hale BROKE her contract.

I simply do not see it as a black and white issue.

Since: Mar 14

Hilliard, OH

#48 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>Until it operates in reverse and your ox is gored. Because I guarantee that as we speak, databases are being searched for "Gotcha!" moments. Wait until it's discovered, for example, that a female executive at Chick-Fil-A wrote a $1000 check to NARAL and "resigns." You people will have a fit, and you won't call it capitalism in action...you'll scream "Corporate fascism!" "Thought control!" "Illegal!"
I'm saying, "Be careful what you wish for."
Private political support (that means writing checks, not marching in parades) should be a guaranteed right without threat of sanction.

Since: Mar 14

Hilliard, OH

#49 Apr 5, 2014
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
So, to recap, you're completely fine with this happening at Moz and decided to make a shrill thread about it because you think people with other political opinions wouldn't be happy about the situation, should it happen with different players?
That's cool.
I'm saying, "Be careful what you wish for."
Private political support (that means writing checks, not marching in parades) should be a guaranteed right without threat of sanction.

“Queen of my domain”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#50 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>I'm saying, "Be careful what you wish for."
Private political support (that means writing checks, not marching in parades) should be a guaranteed right without threat of sanction.
Amen.

Personally, I'm rather weary of this stuff. On BOTH sides. Eich did nothing ILLEGAL nor did he threaten, discriminate against, or harm anyone.
Conservative

Dayton, OH

#51 Apr 5, 2014
Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#52 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>I'm saying, "Be careful what you wish for."
Private political support (that means writing checks, not marching in parades) should be a guaranteed right without threat of sanction.
Are you just not aware that these contributions are a matter of public record? They're as public as a parade or petition.

While it wouldn't much impact this case (the public's choice to not do business with you and to speak against you hardly seem a sanction, unless we're looking at this in larger, social terms?), I do think creating a series of regulations that protect employees against being fired for free speech or political action could be interesting, though. What sort of model were you thinking of?
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#53 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>Worked just fine for Chick-Fil-A:
Chick-fil-A widened its lead over rival KFC as the No. 1 chicken chain in the U.S. last year.
Preliminary data from food industry researcher Technomic shows that Atlanta-based Chick-Fil-A held the lead because its locations are much busier, even though there are far fewer of them.
Chick-fil-A first surpassed KFC as the top chicken chain in 2012. KFC is still much bigger globally.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/chic...
So, you like it when free market forces operate in conjunction with your political viewpoints, but you protest vehemently when they don't.

Got it.

woof
They cannot kill a Spook

Toledo, OH

#54 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>Until it operates in reverse and your ox is gored. Because I guarantee that as we speak, databases are being searched for "Gotcha!" moments. Wait until it's discovered, for example, that a female executive at Chick-Fil-A wrote a $1000 check to NARAL and "resigns." You people will have a fit, and you won't call it capitalism in action...you'll scream "Corporate fascism!" "Thought control!" "Illegal!"
Stop giving the vermin a heads up.
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#55 Apr 5, 2014
gokeefe wrote:
<quoted text> Comparing this situation to Carla Hale is ridiculous.
Why don't you go back through the thread and see who attempted to do that in the first place?

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#56 Apr 5, 2014
Gravedigger Jones wrote:
<quoted text>I'm saying, "Be careful what you wish for."
Private political support (that means writing checks, not marching in parades) should be a guaranteed right without threat of sanction.
What you are advocating is "freedom" of speech without consequence, protected from counter-argument and public discourse.

That's not free speech.

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#57 Apr 5, 2014
gokeefe wrote:
<quoted text>
Amen.
Personally, I'm rather weary of this stuff. On BOTH sides. Eich did nothing ILLEGAL nor did he threaten, discriminate against, or harm anyone.
And? What is your point?

He didn't resign because he committed a crime, engaged in discrimination, or harmed anyone.

He resigned under pressure from the board, in response to its concerns about the corporation's bottom line.

What is wrong with that?

woof

“Queen of my domain”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#58 Apr 5, 2014
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Why don't you go back through the thread and see who attempted to do that in the first place?
woof
Someone playing stupid games and logging in, unregistered, as George.

I countered it. What's your perception level?

“Queen of my domain”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#59 Apr 5, 2014
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
And? What is your point?
He didn't resign because he committed a crime, engaged in discrimination, or harmed anyone.
He resigned under pressure from the board, in response to its concerns about the corporation's bottom line.
What is wrong with that?
woof
Like I said, he did NOTHING wrong. The public lemming-like behavior is what was wrong and unethical.

“Queen of my domain”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#60 Apr 5, 2014
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you like it when free market forces operate in conjunction with your political viewpoints, but you protest vehemently when they don't.
Got it.
woof
Would you call them "market forces" or "social cause forces"? Two separate things.

Private behavior is just that. Market forces really have little to do with private behavior, have a lot to do with economics.

I see you believe one's personal beliefs must be formed by "market forces." Got it.

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