Scouting’s suicide
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

#894 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, my experience, as well that that of others, is that the block of wood with wheels requires significant adult participation--not to mention tools, in order to become a racer.
So far as I can tell, it is being maintained for the enjoyment of a few adults who have invested in the racing hills and who enjoy making cars. Can't see that it has much to do with the kids.
If you have a rational defense, feel free to offer it.
ever hear of making something with your own hands?

and you said it required significant adult participation, not to mention tools.

every boy hates doing stuff like that with Dad don'tca know. Kids love being ignored best, and crack pipes are better than tools.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#895 Feb 9, 2013
Reality Speaks wrote:
<quoted text>
ever hear of making something with your own hands?
and you said it required significant adult participation, not to mention tools.
every boy hates doing stuff like that with Dad don'tca know. Kids love being ignored best, and crack pipes are better than tools.
No one should be surprised...since Reader regularly fails to make the connection between skills and wages.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#896 Feb 9, 2013
Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text>So according to your vast experience with boys, they don't like working with tools, modeling, designing or racing.
Have you ever stopped to consider that the point behind it is to educate by having to meet weight and dimensional requirements?
As to your other bizarre remarks, apparently you think knot-tying and camping are as long gone as rubbing two sticks together. Perhaps you need to talk to firefighters or sailors. Or pay a visit to a national park.
Your totally closed mind is fascinating.
Well, genius, I probably have far more experience "with boys" through professional work than, say, you, or a good many scout leaders.

But the point is that boys don't come with tools or knowledge of how to use them, let alone weight and dimension requirements. And I would further suggest that those are exactly the things that have gotten completely lost. Some scouts have access to adults with that knowledge, ability and a basement full of tools. Many do not. And what the Scouts is providing is NOT enhanced access to those things, but rather a competition in which those who already have such access are the winners. And I would further suggest that those winners learn little about weight and dimension and so forth, because, as I suggested, it has become an adult activity.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#897 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a fact, Jack!
A public condemnation is necessary for societal survival of the LGBTQIABCEDF movement; it's akin to a Muslim cleric denouncing 9/11 in English to a Western audience, while praising it in Arabic to a Muslim audience.

Neither changes the plain facts.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#898 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, genius, I probably have far more experience "with boys" through professional work than, say, you, or a good many scout leaders.
But the point is that boys don't come with tools or knowledge of how to use them, let alone weight and dimension requirements. And I would further suggest that those are exactly the things that have gotten completely lost. Some scouts have access to adults with that knowledge, ability and a basement full of tools. Many do not. And what the Scouts is providing is NOT enhanced access to those things, but rather a competition in which those who already have such access are the winners. And I would further suggest that those winners learn little about weight and dimension and so forth, because, as I suggested, it has become an adult activity.
Translation: Damn those successful two-parent, financially stable, WHITE homes.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#899 Feb 9, 2013
Wait what wrote:
<quoted text>
Sometimes I feel sorry for you, and this is one of those times. Why is having tools a detriment? It's not like you need much more than the basics. Sounds like you had a bad experience and so, as usual, you've decided to trash the whole concept with some made-up judgements. You are in the first person in more years than I care to admit who has complained about the Pinewood Derby. Honestly - complaining because you need tools to fashion a car to race. How very masculine of them!
Tools are not a detriment, nor did I anywhere say that they are. However, the assumption that every kid recruited into the scouts has power tools at home is rather presumptuous.

I would have put my experience aside as an isolated and thoughtless one except for a conversation that I had with someone else from a totally different place and time who had the same experience. And it was enormously clear at the Derby we went to that the playing field was far from level.

Add to this the struggles that I was observing as the BSA desperately tried to pull in urban youth to counter the reality that the United Way was putting a lot of money (they were one of the largest recipients in Central Ohio--much larger btw than the Girl Scouts) into a program that was primarily serving white middle class youth. They had no idea what they were doing. And they didn't do very well.

Hugh Victor Thompson III

“Larchmont's Leading Citizen”

Since: Dec 12

Hilliard, OH

#900 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, genius, I probably have far more experience "with boys" through professional work than, say, you, or a good many scout leaders.
But the point is that boys don't come with tools or knowledge of how to use them, let alone weight and dimension requirements. And I would further suggest that those are exactly the things that have gotten completely lost. Some scouts have access to adults with that knowledge, ability and a basement full of tools. Many do not. And what the Scouts is providing is NOT enhanced access to those things, but rather a competition in which those who already have such access are the winners. And I would further suggest that those winners learn little about weight and dimension and so forth, because, as I suggested, it has become an adult activity.
Oh. My. God.
Now you're doing what you do best...playing the victim card. Always with you..."somebody else" (rich, white, suburban) has "more" than you and your people.
Reader, boys don't "come with" books or the ability to read them either, yet we as parents teach them. How is working on the car any different? And it doesn't take a "basement full of tools." I've seen it done with little more than a jackknife, a screwdriver and a paintbrush. I did the Pinewood Derby gig three times as a Cub Scout and once as the parent of one. I know how it works. And my father had me, as a child of age eight, weighing the car on a kitchen scale, drawing a template for the body shape, measuring with a ruler and carving most of the wood as well as sanding and painting all of it. Under his supervision. It was no different than how I did my school homework when I had a particularly challenging assignment.
Enough of your excuses and your political beefs with all things decent and innocent like the Cub Scouts. You're really off the wall with your victimhood and anger toward those who refuse to embrace it.
Adif understanding

United States

#901 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Tools are not a detriment, nor did I anywhere say that they are. However, the assumption that every kid recruited into the scouts has power tools at home is rather presumptuous.
I would have put my experience aside as an isolated and thoughtless one except for a conversation that I had with someone else from a totally different place and time who had the same experience. And it was enormously clear at the Derby we went to that the playing field was far from level.
Add to this the struggles that I was observing as the BSA desperately tried to pull in urban youth to counter the reality that the United Way was putting a lot of money (they were one of the largest recipients in Central Ohio--much larger btw than the Girl Scouts) into a program that was primarily serving white middle class youth. They had no idea what they were doing. And they didn't do very well.
Who said you needed power tools? They make it easier and most every scout master and father of an existing scout would help out in that area if it really was an issue. But some of the most solid and sound furniture around has been made with nothing but hand tools. In fact, the workbench I made as a project out of a book my grandfather gave me at age twelve used nothing but hand tools to build. And despite it being abused over the years, it is still sitting sturdy as ever in my garage with the dog ears, vise and everything functional.

There are entire series of wood/wright manuals out there in which you learn by making tools by hand that you will use to make the next project in the books. Some of them, I'm not sure if they are still available, but they even included all the starter tools needed.

A kid should be able to make a derby car from scratch with nothing but hand tools with a small amount of help from an adult and a friend.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#902 Feb 9, 2013
Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text>Spot on! That's why she's crying...to her, Scouting is too "male-centric" and not urban enough. I'm frankly shocked that she let her kid recite the oath.
Male-centric is not a problem.

Most of the moms who signed their kids up with my kid were looking for a male-centric activity.

However, the organization of the BSA doesn't really get male-centric until the kids are older. Their organizational model is to get a bunch of boys excited and signed up and then to try to goad one of the moms into being the Den Mother--while the guy who had recruited them all faded into the background.

Now, there is significant expense (weekly dues, uniforms and participations in fundraisers), which they perceived as barriers and made some attempt to provide subsidy for. Nobody, however, had gotten down to thinking about whether these things were truly essential. Now, these kids were roughly 1st and 2nd grade when they were handed a box containing a block of wood (and I do mean a block--as in rectangular) and two sets of wheels (humorously referred to as a kit) and expected to go home and return in one week with a "car" capable of competition. You might want to google some images for what a number of these blocks of wood turn into. But, clearly not by 1st and 2nd graders, and certainly not without significant (if not exclusive) adult involvement.

Now, the event is not likely to go away (although I could swear that I saw an article somewhere that someone had actually suggested such a thing). But not because of its great teaching value. It is because there are far too many adults invested in it.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#903 Feb 9, 2013
-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
Translation: Damn those successful two-parent, financially stable, WHITE homes.
Translation, the BSA (not unlike the Republican Party, BTW) is having trouble understanding why it lacks relevance. If they want to be a program that targets a suburban demographic, then bless them and let them go on their way. But then they will need to own up to it. And stop portraying themselves as a program that can uplift and turns boys, universally, into men.

Hugh Victor Thompson III

“Larchmont's Leading Citizen”

Since: Dec 12

Hilliard, OH

#904 Feb 9, 2013
Next up on Reader's list of organizations to complain about...youth hockey and golf, allegedly because "urban" (black) youths have "less" than "others."
Here's a clue, Reader...take a look at the backgrounds of the average NHL player and try to convince yourself that they come from lives of privilege.
WiseAmerican

United States

#905 Feb 9, 2013
Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text>Spot on! That's why she's crying...to her, Scouting is too "male-centric" and not urban enough. I'm frankly shocked that she let her kid recite the oath.
Black kids don't go to the scouts, that's weird gay stuff in their minds. Alone in the woods with a funny looking white guy who has shorts so tight that his 'man package ' is showing! Naw, black kids in the hood ain't going for that one. They'd rather play basketball, bust windows on empty houses, steal candy from the Arab store, or ride bikes through a retired worker's flower garden. Now that's a summer to look Forward to in the hood as a kid.
Adif understanding

United States

#906 Feb 9, 2013
Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text> And it doesn't take a "basement full of tools." I've seen it done with little more than a jackknife, a screwdriver and a paintbrush. I did the Pinewood Derby gig three times as a Cub Scout and once as the parent of one. I know how it works.
Oh my, you can give a child a knife, they will go on a killing spree. You might as well hand them a gun.

And a screw driver, do you seriously think it is wise for a boyscout to be drinking alcohol with their juice box?

ahh.. the modern liberal. The inability to comprehend reality and the refusal to revisit our history.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#907 Feb 9, 2013
Reality Speaks wrote:
<quoted text>
ever hear of making something with your own hands?
and you said it required significant adult participation, not to mention tools.
every boy hates doing stuff like that with Dad don'tca know. Kids love being ignored best, and crack pipes are better than tools.
Well, fool, as it happens, the adult with whom I had shared the experience lost his father. He was a Vietnam Vet. His parents were married. As it happens, the housing development where he lived, due to similarities of age and race, had many other boys similarly situated. His mother worked pretty hard long hours but was also pretty diligent at keeping her boys involved in things. Hence the cub scouts. My friend recalled pulling the stuff out of the box (the kit) and going--what am I supposed to do with this?

It is true, one can simply attach the wheels, perhaps decorate a bit, and compete with a block of wood on wheels--and at the derby where I was, there were a number of these. But even a kid knows how pitiful it looks next to the ones that are hand carved, formed with jigsaws, meticulously sanded and painted with many coats of paint before the decorative layers are even applied. And clearly none of these were done in the week previous.

As it happens, I have worked with tools on many occasions and given time could probably come up with a better product than what we were given. But, there is a critical question--is this my kid's project, or mine? And it is a consistent question. I was a parent who proudly stood next to my kid's simple science project that reflected their own work--side by side with others that were parent produced.

Hugh Victor Thompson III

“Larchmont's Leading Citizen”

Since: Dec 12

Hilliard, OH

#908 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Male-centric is not a problem.
Most of the moms who signed their kids up with my kid were looking for a male-centric activity.
However, the organization of the BSA doesn't really get male-centric until the kids are older. Their organizational model is to get a bunch of boys excited and signed up and then to try to goad one of the moms into being the Den Mother--while the guy who had recruited them all faded into the background.
Now, there is significant expense (weekly dues, uniforms and participations in fundraisers), which they perceived as barriers and made some attempt to provide subsidy for. Nobody, however, had gotten down to thinking about whether these things were truly essential. Now, these kids were roughly 1st and 2nd grade when they were handed a box containing a block of wood (and I do mean a block--as in rectangular) and two sets of wheels (humorously referred to as a kit) and expected to go home and return in one week with a "car" capable of competition. You might want to google some images for what a number of these blocks of wood turn into. But, clearly not by 1st and 2nd graders, and certainly not without significant (if not exclusive) adult involvement.
Now, the event is not likely to go away (although I could swear that I saw an article somewhere that someone had actually suggested such a thing). But not because of its great teaching value. It is because there are far too many adults invested in it.
Reader, I did the Derby as a Cub and as a parent 30 years later. So you're not going to be able to BS me. And my mom was a Den Mother for two years. She regarded it as an honor and a privilege and certainly didn't whine about the organization the way you do. You went into the entire Scouting experience with a bad attitude, just looking for thing to complain about. Too masculine, too bourgeois, too white.
You (and we) suffer from an accident of geography: that you born ion the West. You would have been so much happier with your son in the Young Pioneers.
Adif understanding

United States

#909 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Translation, the BSA (not unlike the Republican Party, BTW) is having trouble understanding why it lacks relevance. If they want to be a program that targets a suburban demographic, then bless them and let them go on their way. But then they will need to own up to it. And stop portraying themselves as a program that can uplift and turns boys, universally, into men.
If it lacks relevance, then why are you whining about it and why are fags crying because they can't get into it?

Why not just start the gay scouts or the queer scouts and create something relevant instead of trying to tear down something you think is not relevant?

Could it be because it is relevant after all?

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#910 Feb 9, 2013
Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text>Spot on! That's why she's crying...to her, Scouting is too "male-centric" and not urban enough. I'm frankly shocked that she let her kid recite the oath.
Not crying.

Simply observing, Girl Scouting has managed to stay relevant and BSA seems to be having struggles.

If BSA goes down the tubes due to lack of interest in the next decades I will not be mourning. And you will probably be blaming it on gays.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#911 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Translation, the BSA (not unlike the Republican Party, BTW) is having trouble understanding why it lacks relevance. If they want to be a program that targets a suburban demographic, then bless them and let them go on their way. But then they will need to own up to it. And stop portraying themselves as a program that can uplift and turns boys, universally, into men.
Only a pure race-baiting leftist would accuse the BSA of targeting a surburban demographic.

Sorry you lacked the skills to seek out the available assistance you required for you and your son to complete the project.

The real world won't spoonfeed you.
Wait what

Columbus, OH

#912 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Male-centric is not a problem.
Most of the moms who signed their kids up with my kid were looking for a male-centric activity.
However, the organization of the BSA doesn't really get male-centric until the kids are older. Their organizational model is to get a bunch of boys excited and signed up and then to try to goad one of the moms into being the Den Mother--while the guy who had recruited them all faded into the background.
Now, there is significant expense (weekly dues, uniforms and participations in fundraisers), which they perceived as barriers and made some attempt to provide subsidy for. Nobody, however, had gotten down to thinking about whether these things were truly essential. Now, these kids were roughly 1st and 2nd grade when they were handed a box containing a block of wood (and I do mean a block--as in rectangular) and two sets of wheels (humorously referred to as a kit) and expected to go home and return in one week with a "car" capable of competition. You might want to google some images for what a number of these blocks of wood turn into. But, clearly not by 1st and 2nd graders, and certainly not without significant (if not exclusive) adult involvement.
Now, the event is not likely to go away (although I could swear that I saw an article somewhere that someone had actually suggested such a thing). But not because of its great teaching value. It is because there are far too many adults invested in it.
The only fundraiser I remember is the big popcorn sale, akin to the GSA cookie sale. I don't remember weekly dues, and the uniforms you can get as hand me downs. I can tell you I didn't think it was that expensive, and I have admitted to being frugal as well as growing up poor.

Reader, your experience is not the norm. Once again, because YOU think it's a certain way you want it declared so. Admit that it was the mindset of certain folks which deemed your particular group a failure, and not the program itself.

Should we declare Christian churches to be unworthy because of the contemporary Christian speakers who are into it for the money while we're at it, too?

Hugh Victor Thompson III

“Larchmont's Leading Citizen”

Since: Dec 12

Hilliard, OH

#913 Feb 9, 2013
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Not crying.
Simply observing, Girl Scouting has managed to stay relevant and BSA seems to be having struggles.
If BSA goes down the tubes due to lack of interest in the next decades I will not be mourning. And you will probably be blaming it on gays.
And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen...for purely political motives, Reader cheers for the demise of the BSA.
They're not going away, Reader.

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