Fathers' rights protestors plead guil...

Fathers' rights protestors plead guilty to misdemeanor | The Co...

There are 149 comments on the Columbus Dispatch story from Nov 12, 2009, titled Fathers' rights protestors plead guilty to misdemeanor | The Co.... In it, Columbus Dispatch reports that:

Two fathers who staged a protest at a Buckeyes football game last year to complain about the way dads are treated by family courts pleaded guilty this morning to criminal charges.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Columbus Dispatch.

Rights

Lewis Center, OH

#21 Nov 12, 2009
As a divorced mom, I do not understand these women (and in some cases men)who want to use their children as ammunition against their ex spouse. My ex and I parted on horrid terms, but for the mental health of our children, we have shared parenting and avoided a bitter and nasty custody battle. A. I need the help and B. he has RIGHTS to his children. It doesn't make me like him any more or less, but our kids will respect us both for the love we showed them.
Theresa Martin

Clearwater, FL

#22 Nov 12, 2009
Demetra and Madison are both very lucky girls to have daddy's who are willing to risk everything.
mom of 3

Columbus, OH

#23 Nov 12, 2009
It is much easier to parade around in a superman costume than to actually parent a child. In Ohio fathers are given an extraodinary amount of time to "parent". Unfortunately, the father's "rights" seem to take precendent over the best interest of the child. I am personally involved in a case where domestic violence and substantiated child abuse go by the wayside when considering the feelings of the father. Far be it that children in Ohio should have the right to a stable, loving home. These men are only thinking of themselves. Just imagine what they could do if they focused this time, energy, and money supporting the well being of their child. These little super heros have some growing up to do of their own!
Rene S Hollan

Seattle, WA

#24 Nov 12, 2009
Always Learning wrote:
Here's a revolutionary idea--if you want access to your child whenever you wish, try keeping your marriage intact. It may involve counseling, compromise, sacrifice, even keeping your mouth shut now and then, but if you really want what's best for the kids, you'll live with his/her/their other parent(s).
Rather hard to do in states with "no fault" divorce. One partner can leave on a whim, with "no fault" on the part of the other. Add false allegations of abuse to the mix, heard in a court of equity rather than a criminal court (with much looser standards of evidence in the former), and you have a recipe for disaster.
Do some research before "shooting from the hip", Try reading Stepehen Baskerville's "Taken Into Custody: The War against Fathers, Marriage, and The Family".
What you are suggesting is yielding to blackmail. What sane parent wants to leave their children in the hands of an extortionist?
Rene S Hollan

Seattle, WA

#25 Nov 12, 2009
mom of 3 wrote:
It is much easier to parade around in a superman costume than to actually parent a child. In Ohio fathers are given an extraodinary amount of time to "parent". Unfortunately, the father's "rights" seem to take precendent over the best interest of the child. I am personally involved in a case where domestic violence and substantiated child abuse go by the wayside when considering the feelings of the father. Far be it that children in Ohio should have the right to a stable, loving home. These men are only thinking of themselves. Just imagine what they could do if they focused this time, energy, and money supporting the well being of their child. These little super heros have some growing up to do of their own!
SUPPORTING?

A mother KIDNAPS a child from her CUSTODIAL PARENT FATHER, makes a false allegation of abuse, and you are suggesting she be supported?

Methinks you should research this case a bit
FOREVER AND A DAY

United States

#26 Nov 12, 2009
Kudos to you Paul and Donn!May this be the beginning of waking up sheepie,before they too find no reprieve!Oh,how some choose to be so blind,its just so astonishing.From the outside looking in,get your face off the glass!See all the injustices done to so many,feel their pain-get involved or get out of the way.Put your head back in the sand and go back to sleep my dear naive one!
Issue Not What It Seems

Columbus, OH

#27 Nov 12, 2009
Just reading the language, fathers fighting for "my time" - who is this really about? If we aren't going to be dedicated to our marriages, if we abandon our families, is it really appropriate to be expecting entitlement to remove the child from their home of significant amounts of time? Don't the children deserve to rebuild their lives and at least try to put together some sense of normalcy, and security? When did we stop looking out for the best interest of the child?
Mom of 3

Columbus, OH

#28 Nov 12, 2009
I don't think you read my message as I was not referring to a specific case, rather the rights of children in Ohio. The fact that you could indicate that a mother could kidnap her own child is very disturbing. No wonder kids today are so violent.
Rene S Hollan wrote:
<quoted text>
SUPPORTING?
A mother KIDNAPS a child from her CUSTODIAL PARENT FATHER, makes a false allegation of abuse, and you are suggesting she be supported?
Methinks you should research this case a bit
Mom of 3

Columbus, OH

#29 Nov 12, 2009
Yeah, maybe you ought to put down your books Rene and research a bit more on how cases are handled in your county’s family court. Call up children's services for yourself and ask what they do to protect a child who's non-custodial father has been deemed abusive by the agency. Do you think that they alter his visitation? Think again. How much money do you think it takes to take such a father back to court, to protect the children, in such an event (if you do not qualify for legal aid)? 15k sound good? Check it out for yourself. And take a look at child support while you are at it. This system if built to cater to fathers in every way, while making it difficult for single mothers to stay out of poverty and keeping them from having the ability to fight for the rights of their children should the father be unable to properly care for the children during his allotted time.
Rene S Hollan wrote:
<quoted text>
Rather hard to do in states with "no fault" divorce. One partner can leave on a whim, with "no fault" on the part of the other. Add false allegations of abuse to the mix, heard in a court of equity rather than a criminal court (with much looser standards of evidence in the former), and you have a recipe for disaster.
Do some research before "shooting from the hip", Try reading Stepehen Baskerville's "Taken Into Custody: The War against Fathers, Marriage, and The Family".
What you are suggesting is yielding to blackmail. What sane parent wants to leave their children in the hands of an extortionist?
Dennis Rodrigues

Hampstead, NC

#30 Nov 12, 2009
Always Learning wrote:
Here's a revolutionary idea--if you want access to your child whenever you wish, try keeping your marriage intact. It may involve counseling, compromise, sacrifice, even keeping your mouth shut now and then, but if you really want what's best for the kids, you'll live with his/her/their other parent(s).
It takes both for that to happen. I guess I could have let her boyfriend and/or girlfriend she had move in. Would it be good for our daughter. I think not. Its not that simple as your handle shows.
Rene S Hollan

Seattle, WA

#31 Nov 12, 2009
Issue Not What It Seems wrote:
Just reading the language, fathers fighting for "my time" - who is this really about? If we aren't going to be dedicated to our marriages, if we abandon our families, is it really appropriate to be expecting entitlement to remove the child from their home of significant amounts of time? Don't the children deserve to rebuild their lives and at least try to put together some sense of normalcy, and security? When did we stop looking out for the best interest of the child?
Well, yes, but who is doing the abandoning here?

Why should a father be denied equal time with his children when he has done nothing wrong (in terms of marital fault - abuse, infidelity, etc.)?

If you do a bit of research, you will find that Donald, a STAY AT HOME FATHER, had his daughter, Madison, ABDUCTED, by her mother to Illinois, where she received support from VAWA by filing a false claim of abuse -- thrown out by the California courts which have jurisdiction over the child.

To this day, Illinois has REFUSED to honor Donald's COURT ORDERED visitation with his daughter.

Why should an allegation of abuse (clearly criminal), not have to stand the test of a criminal trial and conviction before "sticking"? Since when is it "guilty until proven innocent"?

Fathers 4 Justice believes that the "best interests of the child" are served through EQUAL PARENTING, absent any clear finding of marital misconduct or abuse.

The present family law climate in many states is such that a married woman can get a restraining order against her husband, lest he get angry that she choses to sleep with the mailman... AND she will get the kids, to boot!

I wonder how many women would take kindly to their husbands bringing home women of ill repute, being forcibly removed from their home and children, and being reduced to seeing their kids two weekends a month. Perhaps we should say that wives better take care of their husband's sexual needs "or else" lose their kids. NOT!
Mike

Tipp City, OH

#32 Nov 12, 2009
Let Him SEE His Children!
my 2 cents wrote:
Not true, at least here in Franklin County. I had police reports, court documents and was physically harmed by my ex husband in another county. When I moved to Franklin county he continued to harrassed me and the courts here wouldn't use any of the evidence I had to put a restraining order on him. The only thing it did was flip him out more because even though the order wasn't granted, notice was given to him that I tried to place a restraining order on him. I'm lucky I still have my head on my shoulders after having had a gun pointed at my temple at one point in time. Restraining orders don't work unless the person is in jail or dead.
To get a restraining order all you have to do is say you are in fear of your safety. Call and ask any lawyer if restraining orders are dangerous and used as tool in divorce an custody cases that dont even need proof to be obtained against someone.
Rene S Hollan

Seattle, WA

#33 Nov 12, 2009
Mom of 3 wrote:
I don't think you read my message as I was not referring to a specific case, rather the rights of children in Ohio. The fact that you could indicate that a mother could kidnap her own child is very disturbing. No wonder kids today are so violent.
<quoted text>
That was what happened to one of the defendants in this case, Donald Tenn, and WHY he chose to engage in the civil disobedience that he (and Paul Fisher) did to raise awareness.

This has NOTHING to do with Ohio children (save Paul Fisher's reasons for participating), and has to do with the fact that the civil disobedience took place in Ohio.

Donald's wife kidnapped their daughter from California to Illinois, which refuses to honor a California court's (which has jurisdiction over the child) order the he be allowed to see her.

Paul WON a case in the Ohio Supreme Court over whether parenting plan modifications can result in a change of custody without a "change of circumstances" (they can't) and when the case was remanded to the lower court, Judge Zwitter (IIRC) simply "added" that a change of circumstance occurred, when there was none, to make her earlier ruling consistent, rather than vacating it. Paul was found to have been "detrimental to the stability of their child with mother" because he kept their child from mother who had just blown 0.207 after a DUI arrest following an accident that totaled her car.

And you wonder why these fathers protest?

Do some research.
-Paul

Montgomery, AL

#34 Nov 12, 2009
Myra wrote:
I see as a mother two fathers who want to have time with their children. A lot of fathers don't care. Unless there was domestic violence I see no problems with them having more time with thier kids.
It is great that these fathers want to see their children.

Let's also point out though that domestic violence can be a weapon used by vindictive ex's to gain the upperhand. Once alleged, the authorities are OBLIGATED to file charges; period.

Unless you have money to fight, the accused can very quickly find themselves behind the 8-ball. I know a guy that had photographic evidence that his ex was lying but unfortunately, he also had a paid attorney abandon my case. Children's Services even unsubstantiated that crazy woman's claim!!!

Of course, the guy's former attorney goes before the Ohio State Supreme Court very soon for ethics discipline for his lack of representation of my friend but the bottom-line is this:

1. The courts do automatically assume the father is a child beater if the mother says so, period.

2. In today's hot-bottom domestic violence environment, there are all too many women using the allegation as a tool, in many cases to get even, or as I mentioned earlier, to gain the upperhand.

3. If you don't have the money to fight it, you lose. That's all there is to say about it.

4. Parental Alienation is a real problem that courts have not gotten a handle on. This too, is a tool vindictive parents can leverage to get what they want.

5. Anyone who really has beaten their kids and tried to cover it up are typically the first to alledge the other parent is abusing the chilren. My friend's ex proved this point when she beat their two sons black and blue in 2003 and and he didn't turn her in because he didn't want to rip the kids' mother out of their lives. She really tore their asses up too. Then she turned around and falsely accused him in 2007.

6. Anyone who beats up on their significant other or their kids (Google search Tawny Kitaen because it goes both ways) needs to punished.

7. Anyone who falsely accuses needs to be punished also.

God Bless to everyone who chooses to bring children into this world nowadays.

Since: Nov 09

Williamsburg, VA

#35 Nov 12, 2009
Mom of 3 wrote:
I don't think you read my message as I was not referring to a specific case, rather the rights of children in Ohio. The fact that you could indicate that a mother could kidnap her own child is very disturbing. No wonder kids today are so violent.
<quoted text>
Happens ALL the time, there are more parental abductions then stranger. I think you'll find the people one here speaking on why he did this, know the numbers and issues cocerning interstate abductions...media and police view as domestic issue so you never here about it happening! Look on the Missing Childrens list with NCMEC..count the parental abductions...or check out voiceforthechildren.com solely about parental abductions...there are pending laws in DC...google my name and kidnapping or abductions...could go on forever...google my name with Fox news..set your google to post daily parental kidnappings or abductions & watch your email explode! Many high officials have worked on this issue in the past and brought attention the problem.
My daughters were parentally abducted to another state with conflicting and (as judge stated) " "bogus custody oreders". My 9 yr old came home after 5 days and asked "Mommy, why don't all judges know where kids belong so no more get stolen like we did?" A CHILD..questioned this!
Once again, I believe the real issue is not "his case" but the masses he is trying to bring awareness to..same issues, storys may vary a little but issues are the same.
Mom of 3

Columbus, OH

#36 Nov 12, 2009
"Equal Time" is not about the best interest of the child - it is about pulling them apart like some sort if shared toy. There are 4 weekends in a month. Having half of those is allot of time. Most single mothers work fulltime to support their children, leaving 2-3 hours per night to make dinner, do homework, bath the children and prepare them for the next day. This does not include special ativities and or lessons, school functions, doctors and or counseling appointments, sports, and social activities for the children. Are you aware of this?
Rene S Hollan wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, yes, but who is doing the abandoning here?
Why should a father be denied equal time with his children when he has done nothing wrong (in terms of marital fault - abuse, infidelity, etc.)?
If you do a bit of research, you will find that Donald, a STAY AT HOME FATHER, had his daughter, Madison, ABDUCTED, by her mother to Illinois, where she received support from VAWA by filing a false claim of abuse -- thrown out by the California courts which have jurisdiction over the child.
To this day, Illinois has REFUSED to honor Donald's COURT ORDERED visitation with his daughter.
Why should an allegation of abuse (clearly criminal), not have to stand the test of a criminal trial and conviction before "sticking"? Since when is it "guilty until proven innocent"?
Fathers 4 Justice believes that the "best interests of the child" are served through EQUAL PARENTING, absent any clear finding of marital misconduct or abuse.
The present family law climate in many states is such that a married woman can get a restraining order against her husband, lest he get angry that she choses to sleep with the mailman... AND she will get the kids, to boot!
I wonder how many women would take kindly to their husbands bringing home women of ill repute, being forcibly removed from their home and children, and being reduced to seeing their kids two weekends a month. Perhaps we should say that wives better take care of their husband's sexual needs "or else" lose their kids. NOT!
Mike

Tipp City, OH

#37 Nov 12, 2009
It IS in the best interest of the child to have involvement from BOTH parents!

I.too, had to fight thru the courts to be in my son's life.When she said,"I'm pregnant," I stopped everything to be with her and to support her & my son,working 3 jobs to provide.One day I came home to a different,explosive personality...borderline personality disorder...Imagine getting a phone message that your child is in the emergency room & you rush there only to be told that under Ohio law, since you were not married, we don't have to tell you anything!I refuse to live with someone who obviously has mental issues & is in denial.Fortunately, the court saw thru her lies & I do have full visitation.Mom has attacked me physically on two occasions and tried to twist it & blame it on me.She is very dangerous,fighting me as being her own Dad who was not in her life. She continues to play games, using my son as a pawn to get me to talk with her or to see her,when I don't wish to do either.We went thru 2 meditations,and she denied me rights to his schooling & medical info.What human being, what mother, would do this to a child? A sick one...
Issue Not What It Seems wrote:
Just reading the language, fathers fighting for "my time" - who is this really about? If we aren't going to be dedicated to our marriages, if we abandon our families, is it really appropriate to be expecting entitlement to remove the child from their home of significant amounts of time? Don't the children deserve to rebuild their lives and at least try to put together some sense of normalcy, and security? When did we stop looking out for the best interest of the child?
Mom of 3

Columbus, OH

#38 Nov 12, 2009
My comments are regarding the movement to which they are trying to draw the attention, and not their personal cases. You are either missing this point or have knowledge regarding this specific case only.
Rene S Hollan wrote:
<quoted text>
That was what happened to one of the defendants in this case, Donald Tenn, and WHY he chose to engage in the civil disobedience that he (and Paul Fisher) did to raise awareness.
This has NOTHING to do with Ohio children (save Paul Fisher's reasons for participating), and has to do with the fact that the civil disobedience took place in Ohio.
Donald's wife kidnapped their daughter from California to Illinois, which refuses to honor a California court's (which has jurisdiction over the child) order the he be allowed to see her.
Paul WON a case in the Ohio Supreme Court over whether parenting plan modifications can result in a change of custody without a "change of circumstances" (they can't) and when the case was remanded to the lower court, Judge Zwitter (IIRC) simply "added" that a change of circumstance occurred, when there was none, to make her earlier ruling consistent, rather than vacating it. Paul was found to have been "detrimental to the stability of their child with mother" because he kept their child from mother who had just blown 0.207 after a DUI arrest following an accident that totaled her car.
And you wonder why these fathers protest?
Do some research.
Rene S Hollan

Seattle, WA

#39 Nov 12, 2009
Mom of 3 wrote:
Yeah, maybe you ought to put down your books Rene and research a bit more on how cases are handled in your county’s family court. Call up children's services for yourself and ask what they do to protect a child who's non-custodial father has been deemed abusive by the agency. Do you think that they alter his visitation? Think again. How much money do you think it takes to take such a father back to court, to protect the children, in such an event (if you do not qualify for legal aid)? 15k sound good? Check it out for yourself. And take a look at child support while you are at it. This system if built to cater to fathers in every way, while making it difficult for single mothers to stay out of poverty and keeping them from having the ability to fight for the rights of their children should the father be unable to properly care for the children during his allotted time.
<quoted text>
Do you know what it takes to be "deemed" abusive?

AN ALLEGATION!

Nothing more. Stop drinking the koolaid.

Stephen Baskerville is THE foremost expert on family law, and his book is a scholarly study with close to 1000 original citations.

Domestic violence, which should be handled in the criminal courts, is relegated to "family courts" that operated as courts of equity not criminal courts. Standards of evidence are almost non-existent. It very much is "guilty until proven innocent".

AND, in Donald's case, he WAS found innocent of any wrongdoing in the California court holding jurisdiction over his daughter. So, why was not she returned to her CUSTODIAL PARENT.

While laws vary from state to state, the definition of "abuse" is often vague. Here in WA, I've seen women strike their partners hard enough to raise a bruise, call 911, ADMIT what they did, and have their partner arrested because having struck them, they now have a legitimate "fear" or retaliation, and a claim of fear is all it takes.

Oh, and the cost of the prosecution is often tacked on to the child support award, if the recipient gets TANF dollars via the state.
Mike

Tipp City, OH

#40 Nov 12, 2009
Kudos to these two men for continuing to fight.They could have done worse...I know the feelings they are dealing with, and one never knows what a man will do when his back is against the wall. A man's love for his child is the same as the mother's. Mothers would move Heaven & Earth for a child; men would too!

When you "toy" with these emotions & the government sanctions and protects this behavior by mothers,it becomes a recipe for ...disaster.

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