Detroit Bankruptcy

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Enzyte Bob

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#64
Jul 27, 2013
 

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2. When business falls precipitously or when a city shrinks like Detroit has and is stuck with supporting the pensions and health care of so many people who do nothing for it,the numbers get upside down very quickly. For GM to support freebies for all of its employees needed when they had a 50 percent market share when they now have an 18 percent market share is simply somethingthat cannot be done. Not to mention the fact that thanks to factory automation GM now only needs of fraction of the employees at once had. l

Likewise when a city shrinks to one-third of the population at once was. How is a city one-third of the size that used to be going to support pension and healthcare for three times the number of employees it can afford to have a working for it but sitting in retirement. It's simply cannot be done.

3. What everybody calls poor management is largely uninformed. not dead management was perfect, nobody is. But in the face of declining market share, rising benefits, declining prices and increased competition, the only way that these car companies could meet their nut was by taking content out of the product. That led to declining market share as cheaper products didn't stack up to the competition over time. Nevertheless it was the only way they could keep everything afloat.

in other words, what most uninformed people call poor management was actually quite the opposite.Any rational mind would look at the fact that they were able to keep everything going so long, when all of their fundamentals were declining and their costs to support deadweight obligations were increasing at the same time, and any rational mind would have to say that the people who could keep everything going for over a generation before it finally went kaput, were nothing short of brilliant. And I mean Einstein-level brilliant.

There's more to this story that most people know. Bottom line still boils down to basics fundamentals. Nobody can afford to carry you unless you produce something for them.

4. Just as a side note if you noticed the coverage of the new Royal baby, please note where he was born. He was born in a PRIVATE hospital not in the glorious state run healthcare system that you lefties River so much.

That's what will ultimately happen here. Sav-a-lot style healthcare for the masses, and the rich and upper middle class will have their own system and health care that you will not be able to access. Practically every country from Peru to Great Britain with government healthcare has a parallel system in place.

there is nothing more expensive than free.
Real Tea Party

Galloway, OH

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#65
Jul 27, 2013
 

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St of Circumstance wrote:
<quoted text>
I place blame where it belongs and the line workers aren't to blame for the failure of management and the idiocy of the executives. Being in middle management, you of course will never admit such.
My father was a union electrician for GM until retirement, I was well aware of the overreaching of the union and the threat of strike. Still, it was management who agreed to the bad decisions, they had no cajones. A working man won't last long with no work, something the executives didn't consider as they worried about lasting too long without a future income stream.
Unions are the problems if you read the latest research. That's what I was told. The management cannot fire and hire people because of the union so the bad workers stay in the business.
Enzyte Bob

Columbus, OH

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#66
Jul 27, 2013
 
Diamond Eugene wrote:
<quoted text>I agree, there's no region in the nation where such decay is not only so widespread, but accepted and at times worn like a badge of honor. The residents blame a world that left them behind 30 years ago. They've never even wanted to move on.
"Widespread" is the right word and that's what makes what you see in that region unique. I remember driving around the Lower Burrell area in the 1990's and marveled at how awful everything looked and how much of it was awful.

We weren't in the 'hood, or in the area where poor whites lived. It was just a mainstream working class area in Pittsburgh. That's what makes things so unappealing over in those parts. That's mostly what you see from Wheeling through about Youngstown.

Since: Apr 13

Zanesville, OH

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#67
Jul 27, 2013
 

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Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
You'd better get a refund of you're Syracuse degree.it appears you weren't taught any critical thinking skills.
-Krauthammer has one aspect of both stories here:
"It doesn’t take a genius to see what happens when the entitlement state outgrows the economy upon which it rests. The time of Greece, Cyprus, Portugal, Spain, the rest of insolvent social-democratic Europe — and now Detroit — is the time for conservatives to raise the banner of Stein’s Law and yell,“Stop.” You can kick the can down the road, but at some point it disappears over a cliff."
Here are some very simple rules to go by. If you really were in business for yourself you know they are true.
1. NOBODY can afford to pay a lot of people to sit around and not produce.
A. When unions have a lot of restrictive work rules, slow the line, sit in job banks for years and years when there is no work to do (and can't be laid off), sit in retirement for 35 years with a pension check and all of their healthcare paid, and generally take an 'it's not my job" attitude, that is effectively the same as being paid for not producing.
In other words the employer is having to shell out money for people to sit around and do nothing. An employer is supposed to generate revenue and a profit from their efforts and pay them from that revenue. An employee sitting around doing nothing weather through retirement benefits or in efficacy can I generate revenue nor profit.
Continued in next post ...
Bob, it was the corporate negotiators who agreed to unsustainable terms, not the line workers. It's common for the right to try to pin the tail on the head of the donkey and not the ass where it belongs.

Good management would have held firm on sustainable provisions and not settle for what kept the lines moving.

I think your critical thinking is in question since you offer no thoughts of your own and a right wingers blog piece.

Enzyte Bob

Columbus, OH

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#68
Jul 27, 2013
 
St of Circumstance wrote:
<quoted text>
Bob, it was the corporate negotiators who agreed to unsustainable terms, not the line workers. It's common for the right to try to pin the tail on the head of the donkey and not the ass where it belongs.
Good management would have held firm on sustainable provisions and not settle for what kept the lines moving.
I think your critical thinking is in question since you offer no thoughts of your own and a right wingers blog piece.
1. The automakers capitulated to union demands because they could not afford a strike. A strike would have resulted in everything crashing down in the 1980's. To meet their obligations, they took content out of their cars. Taking content out of their cars led to quality problems and loss of business and the cycle kept continuing as GM rode its 50% market share down to the current 18% market share it has.

Companies (and governments) that have money problems have only two solutions: Raise revenue or cut costs. They were maxed out at revenue, couldn't do anything about the unions so the only avenue was to cut costs.

Thats what you see happening with ALL indebted companies. Though GM didn't have a lot of traditional debt, its obligations to employees were essentially the same thing.

2. Rigid work rules. This was another way the unions choked the automakers. The WSJ ran a story about what happened at Honda when a line went down one day ... they figure out a solution and moved people around to get the job done. The particular example given resulted in no loss of production because they were able to pull people from one line and move them over to another.

Union plants? "It's not my job" and they do that for a reason ... to pad payroll. To give more union brothers a chance to slop at the trough. That line going down at GM would have resulted in everything going down, losing production, and union goons sitting around getting paid for doing nothing until the problem was fixed.

That, in essence, is why all union facilities have gone bankrupt.

Again, it's a basic law of economics: Companies can't pay you to sit around doing nothing. You have to be producing revenue or profit for them or they can't afford to pay you. That's why unions kill the golden goose each and every place they go.

3. Roger Smith and me. Roger Smith was deemed an incompetent by lefists like Michael Moore. Their meme was that he was incompetent and ran GM into the ground. In reality, he was a brilliant financial manager. His staff came to the conclusion that it was stupid to spend money on the car side of the business because it made no money. So they kept the car side going and used cash to invest in Hughes Electronics, Perot's Electronic Data Systems and other financial endeavors.

Everybody looks at the failure of the car side, but they don't realize that shareholders made out spectacularly due to all the spinoffs, especially Hughes. Had the money been reinvested in the car division, it would have continued to lumber along. Likewise with GMAC, which carried the company for much of the last 20 years.

THAT, my friends, is the real story behind unions and how they destroyed the companies that employed their members. And that is the entire truth.

As I said, not to say management was always great. They have their issues. But the big issue was that the only way to make their nut was to cut costs on cars and use the money to invest in other ventures. This they did spectacularly.
Enzyte Bob

United States

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#69
Jul 27, 2013
 
More:

Contrary to what you might have heard, even before the crisis, the wages of General Motors and Chrysler and Ford’s UAW workers actually weren’t that much higher than their Southern competitors. But they got about $10 an hour extra in benefits. They were also protected by strict work rules -- for years, if something went wrong, the whole line shut down while you called a specialty worker to fix it, even if the line workers could have fixed it themselves. Workers who got laid off could hang out in the job bank, doing nothing. And retirees were eligible for generous pension and health benefits: by 2008, for every worker in the plants, GM had to pay the United Auto Workers an extra $15 an hour to cover unfunded benefits for retirees.
That extra cost was taken out of the quality of the cars. But even if the American South wasn't union resistant, the United Auto Workers probably wouldn't have been able to maintain the extremely sweet deals they won in the 1960s and 1970s. Eventually, reports Paul Ingrassia in his book "Crash Course," even Leonard Woodcock, the guy who had negotiated the rich deals that UAW workers became accustomed to, began to think that he’d created a monster:“Our members have the best contract that people with their skills and education could ever hope to get.” Woodcock told a friend.“But we’ve convinced them that with every new contract, they’re entitled to more.”

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-25/h...
Pamela

Plain City, OH

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#70
Jul 27, 2013
 
Detroit Blacks riots, Whites leave, Blacks in control leads to chaos, corruption and total breakdown in authority just like Somalia, just like Haiti, just like any situation where liberal Blacks are in charge. Government cannot replace, God, family and church.

Since: Apr 13

Zanesville, OH

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#71
Jul 27, 2013
 

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Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
1. The automakers capitulated to union demands because they could not afford a strike. A strike would have resulted in everything crashing down in the 1980's. To meet their obligations, they took content out of their cars. Taking content out of their cars led to quality problems and loss of business and the cycle kept continuing as GM rode its 50% market share down to the current 18% market share it has.
Companies (and governments) that have money problems have only two solutions: Raise revenue or cut costs. They were maxed out at revenue, couldn't do anything about the unions so the only avenue was to cut costs.
Thats what you see happening with ALL indebted companies. Though GM didn't have a lot of traditional debt, its obligations to employees were essentially the same thing.
2. Rigid work rules. This was another way the unions choked the automakers. The WSJ ran a story about what happened at Honda when a line went down one day ... they figure out a solution and moved people around to get the job done. The particular example given resulted in no loss of production because they were able to pull people from one line and move them over to another.
Union plants? "It's not my job" and they do that for a reason ... to pad payroll. To give more union brothers a chance to slop at the trough. That line going down at GM would have resulted in everything going down, losing production, and union goons sitting around getting paid for doing nothing until the problem was fixed.
That, in essence, is why all union facilities have gone bankrupt.
Again, it's a basic law of economics: Companies can't pay you to sit around doing nothing. You have to be producing revenue or profit for them or they can't afford to pay you. That's why unions kill the golden goose each and every place they go.
3. Roger Smith and me. Roger Smith was deemed an incompetent by lefists like Michael Moore. Their meme was that he was incompetent and ran GM into the ground. In reality, he was a brilliant financial manager. His staff came to the conclusion that it was stupid to spend money on the car side of the business because it made no money. So they kept the car side going and used cash to invest in Hughes Electronics, Perot's Electronic Data Systems and other financial endeavors.
Everybody looks at the failure of the car side, but they don't realize that shareholders made out spectacularly due to all the spinoffs, especially Hughes. Had the money been reinvested in the car division, it would have continued to lumber along. Likewise with GMAC, which carried the company for much of the last 20 years.
THAT, my friends, is the real story behind unions and how they destroyed the companies that employed their members. And that is the entire truth.
As I said, not to say management was always great. They have their issues. But the big issue was that the only way to make their nut was to cut costs on cars and use the money to invest in other ventures. This they did spectacularly.
Bob, the problems with GM began in the 60's. Roger Smith was no genius and those under him were dolts. John DeLorean was spot on in the late 60's and GM refused to listen to him. That led to what we have now.

You can offer all the excuses and justifications you'd like, those at the top of the company failed hugely.

Since: Nov 10

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#72
Jul 28, 2013
 
Free Pizza 4 U wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL,
You must be a Kevy sock huh top mod trollie?
I know the top mod site has went to boring shyte but hey, can't you find somewhere else to troll?
Come on Figgy, wouldn't you rather comment on whether Persephone needs a neat thread of her own or something more important to ya?
Haha! You must be a nutso Ningalinger. Don't you have a troll forum in its death throws? How is that Denver site coming along? Hahaha!

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#73
Jul 28, 2013
 

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Diamond Eugene wrote:
<quoted text>Unions never hurt a company? That's one of the most ludicrous statements ever. Ask the American steel industry about that. Ask the retirees of the Big Three whose former employers soon won't be able to pay their benefits because they're so far over the top. Ask the workers at the auto plants in the 70s why they turned out utter junk. There's a reason some of us haven't owned a Big Three car in a quarter century and never will again. I will never drive anything stamped "UAW."
How has "government" taken away unions? Right to work is a basic right...forcing someone to join a union is un-American. And in case you haven't noticed, union growth in government employment is unfettered.
The cities I mentioned WILL NOT follow in Detroit's footsteps...Boston, Houston and Dallas are in the clover. The have thriving middles classes and huge tax bases as a result. So does Columbus.
Unions built it his country. We are the unions DA. If people were payed enough to live on there wouldn't be a need for unions.
Why did they turn out junk? The company determines how the parts are made not the workers. When a company cuts corners to put more dollars in its already bulging pockets that's what you get. When they cut jobs and make one person do the the job of two and then work them 12 hours a day then run them as hard as you can. That's what you get. I could be wrong so why don't you ask one of the three managers for every worker of these companies that are hurting so badly.

“Hereeeeee'ssss UR Pizza”

Since: May 13

Columbus, OH

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#74
Jul 28, 2013
 
Figarooo wrote:
<quoted text>
Haha! You must be a nutso Ningalinger. Don't you have a troll forum in its death throws? How is that Denver site coming along? Hahaha!
UR Mad huh
Real Tea Party

Galloway, OH

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#75
Jul 28, 2013
 
Figarooo wrote:
<quoted text>
Unions built it his country. We are the unions DA. If people were payed enough to live on there wouldn't be a need for unions.
Why did they turn out junk? The company determines how the parts are made not the workers. When a company cuts corners to put more dollars in its already bulging pockets that's what you get. When they cut jobs and make one person do the the job of two and then work them 12 hours a day then run them as hard as you can. That's what you get. I could be wrong so why don't you ask one of the three managers for every worker of these companies that are hurting so badly.
Yea but we don't need union anymore, in fact unions are slowing the economy down with unsustainable pensions. Labor costs are rising and we cannot compete with China and India and many other countries because their wages are fairly low so management can manage.
Pembroke

Dayton, OH

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#76
Jul 28, 2013
 
Real Tea Party wrote:
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Yea but we don't need union anymore, in fact unions are slowing the economy down with unsustainable pensions. Labor costs are rising and we cannot compete with China and India and many other countries because their wages are fairly low so management can manage.
Most unsustainable pensions are state employee pensions.

State employee pensions are overly generous compared to federal pensions.

Some companies such as GM and Chrysler have defaulted on their pension obligations because those companies were run by corrupt pencil pushers and so-called finacial wizards. The financial wizards at GM worked with Obama to dump blue collar pension obligations onto the taxpayer.

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#77
Jul 28, 2013
 
Free Pizza 4 U wrote:
<quoted text>
UR Mad huh
Not at all!

Since: Nov 10

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#78
Jul 28, 2013
 
Real Tea Party wrote:
<quoted text>
Yea but we don't need union anymore, in fact unions are slowing the economy down with unsustainable pensions. Labor costs are rising and we cannot compete with China and India and many other countries because their wages are fairly low so management can manage.
We had the greatest country in the world and look at it now. America has lost it's honor. It has turned into a me me me country full of drug addicts.

“Hereeeeee'ssss UR Pizza”

Since: May 13

Columbus, OH

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#79
Jul 28, 2013
 
Figarooo wrote:
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Not at all!
hahahaha

Don't U think, Persephone needs a neat thread of her own!
Clown Basher

Dayton, OH

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#80
Jul 28, 2013
 
Real Tea Party wrote:
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Let's move the blacks back to the South and work for free like it used to be. No more wages and pure profits for us. The American way.
But Roman used their own slaves you won't have the courage to do so.
Ancient Rome used captured POWs as slaves, dumba$$.

If you'd let go of your little moneymaker long enough to read a good book, you'd know that as a fact.

Since: Jun 13

Hilliard, OH

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#81
Jul 28, 2013
 

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Figarooo wrote:
<quoted text>
We had the greatest country in the world and look at it now. America has lost it's honor. It has turned into a me me me country full of drug addicts.
That's courtesy of the left.

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