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“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#43
Mar 3, 2013
 

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-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
Naturally, you feign blissful ignorance regarding all of the "pre-viable" babies saved by NICU interventions.
Naturally.
All of them?

All two of them?

Unless you've been hearing of >22 week survivals popping up all over the place?

I'm still not sure you're comprehending what viability means.

Premature =/= unviable.

Viable:
vi∑a∑ble
Adjective
Capable of working successfully; feasible

In this example, the idea of medical viability means capable of surviving.
Che Reagan Christ

Lodi, OH

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#44
Mar 3, 2013
 
-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
Begone with your reading comprehension problems.
You never add anything substantive to any discussion.
By substantive you mean "in agreement" right?
Che Reagan Christ

Lodi, OH

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#45
Mar 3, 2013
 
-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG. Please let the nation's NICU MDs and RNs know ASAP that all pre-natal emergencies and interventions are pointless.
If it's not a "viable" living human, why attempt to save it?
Once again, the word "viable" is of great importance in your scenarios and you seem not to understand what it means.
Loredo El Paso

Cincinnati, OH

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#46
Mar 3, 2013
 

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Queers that rely on state-paid AIDS-HIV-STD medicines and therapies are not viable.

Pull the plug.
Che Reagan Christ

Lodi, OH

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#47
Mar 3, 2013
 

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Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text>Nobody is chasing you around, interloper. We're following and protecting our friends.
You are such a hero.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#48
Mar 3, 2013
 
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
All of them?
All two of them?
Unless you've been hearing of >22 week survivals popping up all over the place?
I'm still not sure you're comprehending what viability means.
Premature =/= unviable.
Viable:
vi∑a∑ble
Adjective
Capable of working successfully; feasible
In this example, the idea of medical viability means capable of surviving.
In 1973, when SCOTUS legalized abortion, viability was at about 24 weeks. But, as technology has progressed, babies have now survived at 20 weeks after conception...and that date may continue to move with technological advances.

This inconvenient fact, of course, puts you pro-aborts in a morally difficult situation.

Or would...if you actually practiced morality.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#49
Mar 3, 2013
 
-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
In 1973, when SCOTUS legalized abortion, viability was at about 24 weeks. But, as technology has progressed, babies have now survived at 20 weeks after conception...and that date may continue to move with technological advances.
This inconvenient fact, of course, puts you pro-aborts in a morally difficult situation.
Or would...if you actually practiced morality.
In 1973 the Supreme Court threshold for legal viability was set at 28 weeks.

Could you please link to some of these 20 week live births which survived? I'm really puzzled that this would happen and not be documented in the news or academic publications.

I'm still seeing the record set at a day or two short of 22 weeks with those being the only two anywhere in the ballpark but you may have stumbled onto a non English language site, or some other resource I'm missing?

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#50
Mar 3, 2013
 

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tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
In 1973 the Supreme Court threshold for legal viability was set at 28 weeks.
Could you please link to some of these 20 week live births which survived? I'm really puzzled that this would happen and not be documented in the news or academic publications.
I'm still seeing the record set at a day or two short of 22 weeks with those being the only two anywhere in the ballpark but you may have stumbled onto a non English language site, or some other resource I'm missing?
As medical technology has advanced, "viability" has changed. Roe may have indicated viability around 28 wks, but in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 860 (1992) the Court noted that viability may occur at 23-24 weeks or even earlier.

http://tinyurl.com/9wdhbop

"...In my files, I have six cases born at 21 weeks. Their weights range from 16 ounces to 24 ounces (540 - 810 gm).

I have 11 cases of survivors at 20 weeks. Their weights varied from 12 to 22 ounces (339 to 663 gm). There are two cases at 19 weeks including baby Kenya King who weighed 18 ounces (510 gm) and was 10.5 inches (26.5 cm) long. She dropped to 13 ounces (370 gm), had heart surgery, survived and went home with her mother. We have her photo from the Miami Herald in our book. Our last contact with her was when she was about five years old, at which time she was a normal, healthy little girl.(Abortion Questions and Answers, pp. 98, 99, 2003.)

Finally, we have two cases at 18 weeks. Note: For a listing of eleven such early survivors, see the 1989 edition of Abortion Questions and Answers (Willke. Hayes Pub. Co. pp. 60, 61).

All of the tiny babies in our listing were publicized in local newspapers or other publications, but none of them received national or international publicity...."

http://cellar.org/iotd.php...

Face it, as others have said...you pro-aborts are barbarians.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#51
Mar 3, 2013
 

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-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
As medical technology has advanced, "viability" has changed. Roe may have indicated viability around 28 wks, but in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 860 (1992) the Court noted that viability may occur at 23-24 weeks or even earlier.
http://tinyurl.com/9wdhbop
"...In my files, I have six cases born at 21 weeks. Their weights range from 16 ounces to 24 ounces (540 - 810 gm).
I have 11 cases of survivors at 20 weeks. Their weights varied from 12 to 22 ounces (339 to 663 gm). There are two cases at 19 weeks including baby Kenya King who weighed 18 ounces (510 gm) and was 10.5 inches (26.5 cm) long. She dropped to 13 ounces (370 gm), had heart surgery, survived and went home with her mother. We have her photo from the Miami Herald in our book. Our last contact with her was when she was about five years old, at which time she was a normal, healthy little girl.(Abortion Questions and Answers, pp. 98, 99, 2003.)
Finally, we have two cases at 18 weeks. Note: For a listing of eleven such early survivors, see the 1989 edition of Abortion Questions and Answers (Willke. Hayes Pub. Co. pp. 60, 61).
All of the tiny babies in our listing were publicized in local newspapers or other publications, but none of them received national or international publicity...."
http://cellar.org/iotd.php...
Face it, as others have said...you pro-aborts are barbarians.
Do you have any news or medical articles on this?

The medical articles I've been able to access show the youngest outlier as the same one listed in your second link. If you've got academic journal access (if you went to university, you may have this as a graduate of your school!) I can pop you the links to some articles on viability and outcomes!

Not that an antichoice activist claiming his files are 'totes full of cases that don't make the news' isn't an interesting source!

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#52
Mar 3, 2013
 
-tip- wrote:
<quoted text>
In 1973, when SCOTUS legalized abortion, viability was at about 24 weeks. But, as technology has progressed, babies have now survived at 20 weeks after conception...and that date may continue to move with technological advances.
This inconvenient fact, of course, puts you pro-aborts in a morally difficult situation.
Or would...if you actually practiced morality.
The nurse you are citing speaks specifically of non-viable fetuses. One presumes she is well-acquainted with the medical definition.

However, is abortion a morally difficult choice? Yes, absolutely. Making that choice carries a great responsibility--as does being pregnant, as does being a parent.

You are happy to overlook deaths of women to abortions that were in fact "botched" (meaning such things as all of the placenta or fetal tissue not being removed, perforation of the uturus, introduction of infection in various ways, etc), by people not legally licensed as health care providers, in non-sterile circumstances, in fear of being caught and therefor providing no follow-up care. These were the conditions that in fact existed prior to Roe. Also in existence was the forced carrying to term pregnancies that resulted from rape or incest, pregnancies that would NEVER result in a viable infant, pregnancies which endangered the health and physical well-being of a woman, and so forth.

You would like to return to those times.

I would not.
Wait what

Dublin, OH

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#53
Mar 3, 2013
 

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tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
All of them?
All two of them?
Unless you've been hearing of >22 week survivals popping up all over the place?
I'm still not sure you're comprehending what viability means.
Premature =/= unviable.
Viable:
vi∑a∑ble
Adjective
Capable of working successfully; feasible
In this example, the idea of medical viability means capable of surviving.
Survival rates (2009):

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/20...

I shouldn't worry much, however. There is a movement which is gaining speed which wants the medical community to deny care to babies born prematurely - something other countries already do, because of the exorbitant health care costs (passed on to us all).
MmmMmmMmm

Springdale, AR

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#54
Mar 3, 2013
 
Kill everybody...save money.

“Larchmont's Leading Citizen”

Since: Dec 12

Hilliard, OH

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#55
Mar 3, 2013
 

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Wait what wrote:
<quoted text>
Survival rates (2009):
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/20...
I shouldn't worry much, however. There is a movement which is gaining speed which wants the medical community to deny care to babies born prematurely - something other countries already do, because of the exorbitant health care costs (passed on to us all).
And that's how they keep their phony infant mortality rate numbers, the ones lefties and foreigners love to bash the US with. In places like France and Japan, if the baby lives less than seven days, it's not recorded as a live birth. Here, a single breath is counted as a birth, even if the baby dies five minutes later.
Jack Tater

Cincinnati, OH

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#56
Mar 3, 2013
 

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Queers promote elective abortion and sodomy and promiscuity and porn and national socialized medicine, and demand a marriage license (public support).

I don't detect much taking of responsibility in the land of Queersville.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#57
Mar 4, 2013
 

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Wait what wrote:
<quoted text>
Survival rates (2009):
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/20...
I shouldn't worry much, however. There is a movement which is gaining speed which wants the medical community to deny care to babies born prematurely - something other countries already do, because of the exorbitant health care costs (passed on to us all).
Thanks, tip seems to have his heart in the right place but the more people posting legitimate statistics, the better we'll be able to steer the conversation into something intellectually honest!

Awesomely, the rate of premature births can be cut back incredibly quickly through access to prenatal care, which is something we can look to import from other countries. More available care should mean fewer preemies and better outlooks.

For example, here in the UK where we have the NHS 1 out of every 13 births (8%) are premature as opposed to 1 out of 9 in the US (12%). Sweden, which we've looked at in this article (and who really just has some stunning health and social policies relating to children, childbirth, women and parents) comes in at 6%, roughly half our rate.

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#58
Mar 4, 2013
 

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Hugh Victor Thompson III wrote:
<quoted text>And that's how they keep their phony infant mortality rate numbers, the ones lefties and foreigners love to bash the US with. In places like France and Japan, if the baby lives less than seven days, it's not recorded as a live birth. Here, a single breath is counted as a birth, even if the baby dies five minutes later.
Hiya! In Japan, the legal definition of a live birth is one in which the baby is showing signs of life, breathing or able to breathe at or immediately after birth.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%BB%E7%94%...

Children who die immediately or quickly after exhibiting signs of life are live births and still have to be put on the family register and given death certificates, even if they were alive for moments.

My French isn't stellar, so I'll have to trust you on the French one, though it sounds like a bit of a stretch!
Wait what

Dublin, OH

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#59
Mar 4, 2013
 
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks, tip seems to have his heart in the right place but the more people posting legitimate statistics, the better we'll be able to steer the conversation into something intellectually honest!
Awesomely, the rate of premature births can be cut back incredibly quickly through access to prenatal care, which is something we can look to import from other countries. More available care should mean fewer preemies and better outlooks.
For example, here in the UK where we have the NHS 1 out of every 13 births (8%) are premature as opposed to 1 out of 9 in the US (12%). Sweden, which we've looked at in this article (and who really just has some stunning health and social policies relating to children, childbirth, women and parents) comes in at 6%, roughly half our rate.
"First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country."

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articl...
Wait what

Dublin, OH

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#60
Mar 4, 2013
 
tranpsosition wrote:
<quoted text>
Hiya! In Japan, the legal definition of a live birth is one in which the baby is showing signs of life, breathing or able to breathe at or immediately after birth.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%BB%E7%94%...
Children who die immediately or quickly after exhibiting signs of life are live births and still have to be put on the family register and given death certificates, even if they were alive for moments.
My French isn't stellar, so I'll have to trust you on the French one, though it sounds like a bit of a stretch!
"Many countries, however, including certain European states and Japan, only count as live births cases where an infant breathes at birth, which makes their reported IMR numbers somewhat lower and raises their rates of perinatal mortality."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#61
Mar 4, 2013
 
Wait what wrote:
<quoted text>
"Many countries, however, including certain European states and Japan, only count as live births cases where an infant breathes at birth, which makes their reported IMR numbers somewhat lower and raises their rates of perinatal mortality."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality
The link I've included sources the Japanese society of obstetrics and the diet as the source of their figures. They seem pretty clear that the definition of live births are those showing vital signs or able to breathe at birth and that those births (regardless of outcome) are processed in the same way a surviving birth would. I'm usually pretty against machine translation but if you don't have a Japanese speaker (well, another one, if you don't trust my translation!) I might suggest seeing what google translate can tell you about it!

“Meh.”

Since: Aug 10

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#62
Mar 4, 2013
 
Wait what wrote:
<quoted text>
"First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country."
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articl...
Which is why we're not looking at mortality rates, but the rate at which premature births occur.

As the link you've induced earlier with Swedish prematurity outcomes shows ~30% of the sample as being listed as stillborn and still counted as premature, it looks like we can safely assume that all the countries I've mentioned (the US, UK and Sweden) are counting stillbirths in their figures for premature births!

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