Rhodes Tower going up, 1973

Apr 18, 2013 Full story: The Columbus Dispatch 50

The Rhodes Tower was still under construction 40 years ago this month. Here, springtime blossoms frame the structure, on East Broad Street, in April 1973.

Full Story
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#21 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>NPR doesn't think it was rhodes fault.
"40 Years After Kent State: Remembering Ohio Gov. James Rhodes"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/politicaljunkie/2010...
That's not what that opinion piece concludes. It doesn't even tough on that issue at all.

And it wasn't written by NPR. It was written by a single individual.

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#22 Apr 21, 2013
"touch"

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#23 Apr 21, 2013
now now hey wrote:
<quoted text>Bwah bwah bwah. Maybe they should have been running to cover. These hippies were children of WW2 vets or at least nieces and nephews of same, and had they listened to their elders rather than defy and rebel against them, they would have heard and learned stories of the wonderful and life-preserving properties of cover. Jeeesh, within the line of sight of men with rifles and stoners simply walk to class...well, to hear you tell it. Say, once hit did they then transition over to a low crawl to class?
Once again, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

woof
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

#24 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not what that opinion piece concludes. It doesn't even tough on that issue at all.
And it wasn't written by NPR. It was written by a single individual.
woof
Convenient misinterpretation by a leftist hater. What is it you don't understand about the following passages from that article?

=======

On May 1, a large anti-war rally was held at Kent State University, which began peacefully but escalated into violence between protesters and local police. KENT MAYOR LEROY SATROM ASKED GOV. RHODES TO SEND THE NATIONAL GUARD TO KENT STATE, fearful that his police would not be able to handle the situation. Rhodes agreed.

As National Guard soldiers arrived, they witnessed the burning down of the ROTC building on campus. Confrontations between the guardsmen and demonstrators were escalating.

By Sunday, May 3, some 1,000 National Guardsmen were on campus. Rhodes flew to Kent that morning and denounced the protesters in the strongest language. SCHOOL OFFICIALS, with Rhodes' backing, BANNED A PROTEST RALLY SCHEDULED FOR MONDAY, MAY 4.

...

IN JAMES RHODES' LONG POLITICAL CAREER, IT'S HARD TO MAKE THE CASE THAT KENT STATE WAS A DEFINING MOMENT. But, 40 years later, the events there remain a reminder of distrust between government and the people and an unpopular war that resulted in unnecessary deaths, both in Southeast Asia, and on the campuses of America.
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#25 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Convenient misinterpretation by a leftist hater. What is it you don't understand about the following passages from that article?
=======
On May 1, a large anti-war rally was held at Kent State University, which began peacefully but escalated into violence between protesters and local police. KENT MAYOR LEROY SATROM ASKED GOV. RHODES TO SEND THE NATIONAL GUARD TO KENT STATE, fearful that his police would not be able to handle the situation. Rhodes agreed.
As National Guard soldiers arrived, they witnessed the burning down of the ROTC building on campus. Confrontations between the guardsmen and demonstrators were escalating.
By Sunday, May 3, some 1,000 National Guardsmen were on campus. Rhodes flew to Kent that morning and denounced the protesters in the strongest language. SCHOOL OFFICIALS, with Rhodes' backing, BANNED A PROTEST RALLY SCHEDULED FOR MONDAY, MAY 4.
...
IN JAMES RHODES' LONG POLITICAL CAREER, IT'S HARD TO MAKE THE CASE THAT KENT STATE WAS A DEFINING MOMENT. But, 40 years later, the events there remain a reminder of distrust between government and the people and an unpopular war that resulted in unnecessary deaths, both in Southeast Asia, and on the campuses of America.
I think it is you who doesn't understand that passage.

Here is what it means:

Rhodes' long political career was not necessarily defined by May 4, 1970, despite the fact that he issued the order to send in the guard.

Its an opinion piece written about what effect if any 5/4/70 had on his long political career, taking into account that he was later elected by the citizens of Ohio again afterwards.

There's nothing in the article that absolves him of responsibility for what happened, just as there's nothing in the article that places responsibility upon him either.

It states what it states: He had a long political career that was interrupted by term limits and the Kent State shootings.

woof
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

#26 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
I think it is you who doesn't understand that passage.

...

There's nothing in the article that absolves him of responsibility for what happened, just as there's nothing in the article that places responsibility upon him either.
There is nothing more disturbing to me than someone who claims to be a lawyer, and thus someone who we can reasonably assume is intellectually in the top 10% of this country, and you still can't put together the logical sequence of events in your head to properly explain "cause and effect" in this situation.

It's one thing if Jim Rhodes wanted to play weekend warrior and went into Kent, guns a blazin', to quell an insurrection. It's a completely different story when you send the guard in at the request of the mayor!

Jim Rhodes wasn't at Central Command directing the Guard's actions and issuing orders to start firing.

Any reasonable person understanding the facts would be hard-pressed to place blame on him for what happened except in a "buck stops here" way of looking at things.

Do you get this distinction or are you so consumed with hate for even a very popular "moderate" Republican that you would rather sling mud?
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#27 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing more disturbing to me than someone who claims to be a lawyer, and thus someone who we can reasonably assume is intellectually in the top 10% of this country, and you still can't put together the logical sequence of events in your head to properly explain "cause and effect" in this situation.
It's one thing if Jim Rhodes wanted to play weekend warrior and went into Kent, guns a blazin', to quell an insurrection. It's a completely different story when you send the guard in at the request of the mayor!
Jim Rhodes wasn't at Central Command directing the Guard's actions and issuing orders to start firing.
Any reasonable person understanding the facts would be hard-pressed to place blame on him for what happened except in a "buck stops here" way of looking at things.
Do you get this distinction or are you so consumed with hate for even a very popular "moderate" Republican that you would rather sling mud?
Jim Rhodes had the authority to order the guard into Kent at the request of Mayor Satrom and he did so.

He also had the authority to inquire of the Guard's command as to what their plans were, tactically. He had the authority to order the Guard to arm themselves with non-lethal force, and to close the campus on Sunday and send the students home. He had the authority to inquire of the command of the Guard as to whether it had the forces available to send into Kent, and if so, where were they coming from (look into that a bit...you don't know what you're talking about).

He did none of those things.

The Mayor really can't be faulted much. But the KSU administration, and primarily the Governor all conducted themselves as a gang of incompetents. And yes...the buck does stop with him. He tried to use that opportunity to boost his chances in the following day's Senatorial primary election, and he failed miserably.

woof

“Tenured Marxist Radical”

Since: Jan 13

Ivy League-ISIS

#28 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>

Do you get this distinction or are you so consumed with hate for even a very popular "moderate" Republican that you would rather sling mud?
It's Duke, when Mao is just at your left, you think everyone is far right.
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#29 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing more disturbing to me than someone who claims to be a lawyer, and thus someone who we can reasonably assume is intellectually in the top 10% of this country, and you still can't put together the logical sequence of events in your head to properly explain "cause and effect" in this situation.
I've studied and read about these events extensively. I'm quite comfortable in saying that I'm most likely a lot better informed than you about what transpired, and the critical decisions that were made by those in positions of authority.

We can respectfully disagree.

woof

“Tenured Marxist Radical”

Since: Jan 13

Ivy League-ISIS

#30 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
He tried to use that opportunity to boost his chances in the following day's Senatorial primary election, and he failed miserably.
woof
Rhodes was predicted to lose the primary by a huge margin to Taft, it ended up being by a far narrower margin. Now, I'm presuming that this Taft was to the right of Rhodes, so in that regard he was actually successful.
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

#31 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Jim Rhodes had the authority to order the guard into Kent at the request of Mayor Satrom and he did so.
He also had the authority to inquire of the Guard's command as to what their plans were, tactically. He had the authority to order the Guard to arm themselves with non-lethal force, and to close the campus on Sunday and send the students home. He had the authority to inquire of the command of the Guard as to whether it had the forces available to send into Kent, and if so, where were they coming from (look into that a bit...you don't know what you're talking about).
He did none of those things.
The Mayor really can't be faulted much. But the KSU administration, and primarily the Governor all conducted themselves as a gang of incompetents. And yes...the buck does stop with him. He tried to use that opportunity to boost his chances in the following day's Senatorial primary election, and he failed miserably.
woof
Grasping at straws. It took you two hours to come up with that lame response?

Mayor requests help. Rhodes sends the guard in. Guard has its own chain of command and is well-trained in in dealing with these kinds of situations as that is the Guard's primary purpose.

Rhodes was a politician with experience as Mayor, Auditor and Governor. Rhodes was not a military tactician. I would think he would have been smart enough not to stick his nose into things he knows nothing about. He sent the order and he expected experts trained in these sorts of things to handle the situation in accordance with their training.

Why nobody thought of rubber bullets is beyond me, but Rhodes wasn't at the guy at armory handing out weapons.

Since: Apr 13

Hilliard, OH

#32 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
I've studied and read about these events extensively. I'm quite comfortable in saying that I'm most likely a lot better informed than you about what transpired, and the critical decisions that were made by those in positions of authority.
We can respectfully disagree.
woof
Hmmm...but when someone else claims the same about international relations, national security and certain aspects of military preparedness, with a degree in the field, you dismiss them out of hand. Yet we're to accept you as the resident expert on Kent State.
You're a joke.
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#33 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Grasping at straws. It took you two hours to come up with that lame response?
Mayor requests help. Rhodes sends the guard in. Guard has its own chain of command and is well-trained in in dealing with these kinds of situations as that is the Guard's primary purpose.
Rhodes was a politician with experience as Mayor, Auditor and Governor. Rhodes was not a military tactician. I would think he would have been smart enough not to stick his nose into things he knows nothing about. He sent the order and he expected experts trained in these sorts of things to handle the situation in accordance with their training.
Why nobody thought of rubber bullets is beyond me, but Rhodes wasn't at the guy at armory handing out weapons.
Took me two hours to go to the store and do some shopping.

Rhodes gave the orders. The Guard was overextended, fatigued from active duty in Akron. They carried live ammo into a college campus where classes were in session.

The exact opposite of what you assert is true: He either wasn't smart enough to stick his nose where it really DID belong, or he purposefully sent them in with live ammo for political purposes.

Either way, it was an abysmal result that could have easily been avoided.

woof
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#34 Apr 21, 2013
-The-Artist- wrote:
<quoted text>
Rhodes was predicted to lose the primary by a huge margin to Taft, it ended up being by a far narrower margin. Now, I'm presuming that this Taft was to the right of Rhodes, so in that regard he was actually successful.
That's the point. It was done for purposes of political opportunism.

woof
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

#35 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
I've studied and read about these events extensively. I'm quite comfortable in saying that I'm most likely a lot better informed than you about what transpired, and the critical decisions that were made by those in positions of authority.
We can respectfully disagree.
woof
I think you're making the mistake a lot of people make when it comes to 20-20 hindsight in that you're not putting things in perspective. The governor is no more likely to drop everything to deal with an insurrection on a campus in a small town than the mayor does when the gangbangers get antsy in the hot weather.

Not his job.

Just look at the way things were last summer when the power was out. Kasich did a flyover, did a few photo ops, and sent the guard around knocking on doors making sure people were okay (primarily a PR mission to show the government cares, if you ask me). I seriously doubt Kasich was hunkered down looking at maps of subdivisions and assigning orders to guardsmen.

Not Rhodes' job to do anything but send the guard out and expect them to do their job.

But that's beside the point. Ohio has a great network of highways which you don't really appreciate until you go to other states. Rhodes also greatly expanded the university and community college system, and put airports in every county. Rhodes brought Honda here and that has brought a generation of prosperity to Ohio and the Columbus metro.

Hats off to Rhodes for that one.

Since: Apr 13

Hilliard, OH

#36 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the point. It was done for purposes of political opportunism.
woof
So, Jim Rhodes burned down the ROTC building as an excuse to go in, huh?

“Tenured Marxist Radical”

Since: Jan 13

Ivy League-ISIS

#37 Apr 21, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the point. It was done for purposes of political opportunism.
woof
Rhodes had a longer history of advocating the suppression of campus unrest. The goal was to shut the universities down and therefore end the war.

They weren't doing this in a vacuum, it was May 1968 in France where this started.

“Tenured Marxist Radical”

Since: Jan 13

Ivy League-ISIS

#38 Apr 21, 2013
-Clayton Bigsby wrote:
<quoted text>So, Jim Rhodes burned down the ROTC building as an excuse to go in, huh?
People have claimed he did.

“Tenured Marxist Radical”

Since: Jan 13

Ivy League-ISIS

#39 Apr 21, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you're making the mistake a lot of people make when it comes to 20-20 hindsight in that you're not putting things in perspective. The governor is no more likely to drop everything to deal with an insurrection on a campus in a small town than the mayor does when the gangbangers get antsy in the hot weather.
Not his job.
Just look at the way things were last summer when the power was out. Kasich did a flyover, did a few photo ops, and sent the guard around knocking on doors making sure people were okay (primarily a PR mission to show the government cares, if you ask me). I seriously doubt Kasich was hunkered down looking at maps of subdivisions and assigning orders to guardsmen.
Not Rhodes' job to do anything but send the guard out and expect them to do their job.
But that's beside the point. Ohio has a great network of highways which you don't really appreciate until you go to other states. Rhodes also greatly expanded the university and community college system, and put airports in every county. Rhodes brought Honda here and that has brought a generation of prosperity to Ohio and the Columbus metro.
Hats off to Rhodes for that one.
Without the decision by Rhodes to push for annexation via the water gun, Columbus would not be as successful as it is today.

It's historically performed better than its closest comparison of Indianapolis.
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

#40 Apr 21, 2013
-The-Artist- wrote:
<quoted text>
Without the decision by Rhodes to push for annexation via the water gun, Columbus would not be as successful as it is today.
It's historically performed better than its closest comparison of Indianapolis.
Apples and oranges again that will probably take too long to explain in this thread. Bottom line is that Indiana has always been comparatively a poor sister to Ohio. Columbus has always been more more educated and bookish than Indianapolis. Indianapolis was more blue collar and therefore used to have higher incomes.

Sensenbrenner (a populist Democrat in the mold of Lausche) is responsible for the annexation policy which has mostly been sound. Modest housing in Columbus proper, with nicer stuff in the suburbs gives Columbus an overall nicer character than most city-county merged governments like Indy. Charlotte is the only successful city-county government merger, but check back 30 years from now and I bet Columbus will be considered the nicer city because we have suburbs (and suburbs take care of their territories better) and Charlotte has just one government.

Rhodes' biggest positive quality is that he wasn't a green eye-shade "conservative", Wall Street type of Republican. He came from modest roots in Southern Ohio and he was the type of Republican who believed in doing great things for a long-term benefit to the state. If you look at the things he did, I think you would be hard-pressed to name a more successful governor in terms of accomplishing big things for the state.

This is my beef with conservatives, by the way. If Rhodes were a "conservative", we would have the type of highways you see in PA or South Carolina. Government spending is not inherently evil when it builds assets that can be used for generations.

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