Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#5444 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
But without the manslaughter charge, the defense wouldn't have to address those elements as strongly, only the ones that are elements of murder.
The only difference is that for the 2nd degree Murder charge the state must prove that GZ acted "with a depraved mind without regard for human life".

That's it. Everything else is included in the elements of manslaughter.

You're mistaken on this Tony.

woof

“Where did I put my tiara?”

Since: Dec 11

Columbus, OH

#5445 Jul 12, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Its a "lesser included charge", which means that when one is charged with the greater offense, all of the elements of the lesser charge are also elements required to be proven to obtain a conviction for the greater charge as well.
woof
As I stated previously...you don't get to change the charges in the middle of the game. Arf.
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#5446 Jul 12, 2013
GlitterSucks wrote:
<quoted text>As I stated previously...you don't get to change the charges in the middle of the game. Arf.
They aren't "changed". Note the term "lesser included". It means exactly what it says.

Like the old Progresso Soup commercials: "Its in there".

woof
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5447 Jul 12, 2013
GlitterSucks wrote:
<quoted text>As I stated previously...you don't get to change the charges in the middle of the game. Arf.
This was all explained even before the trial started. It's not a surprise, and I'm not sure why people are surprised by it. It happens all the time.
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5448 Jul 12, 2013
When the earth starts shaking, don't panic - it's because I have to agree with Duke.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5449 Jul 12, 2013
GlitterSucks wrote:
<quoted text>As I stated previously...you don't get to change the charges in the middle of the game. Arf.
They aren't really changing the charges, though. Essentially the same things go into both charges, the same legal work, and the same things you have to do in court. Just the second degree murder charge adds an additional hurdle you have to jump.

Think of it this way: It's like the difference between a Honda Accord with leather and a V-6 (what he was charged with) and a Honda Accord with cloth seats and a 4 cylinder engine (manslaughter). Both essentially the same thing, just with a couple of different twists.

The bigger issue is whether or not this is standard practice in Florida, which it seems to be. As standard practice, the defense lawyer was prepared for this and is probably hyperventilating in order to make hay of something in case he has to appeal ... and maybe for public consumption.

“Where did I put my tiara?”

Since: Dec 11

Columbus, OH

#5450 Jul 12, 2013
I love that I'm judged clueless for asking a lawyer's opinion.

“Where did I put my tiara?”

Since: Dec 11

Columbus, OH

#5451 Jul 12, 2013
Watched judge instructions to the jury. Pundits treating the jury like they can't sift flour...Oh, they are woman, they must be able to.
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5452 Jul 12, 2013
I think more casual observers use those icons. Everybody else uses words. Just a thought and I could be wrong.
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5453 Jul 12, 2013
We'll know in a minute when an icon pops up, lol.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5454 Jul 12, 2013
You all should remember to take one thing into consideration when you are analyzing this stuff. Remember what happened over the tug of war over Rifqua Bary a few years ago? People in Florida were screaming about Ohio's "liberal" courts (that's a joke) and how sending her back home would result in an "honor killing". Likewise, people up here thought the Courts down in Florida were run by a bunch of rednecks who were catering to all the bible thumpers down in Florida.

So the lesson is to be careful when you are casting aspersions about something going on in a far-away place.

We trust (for the most part) our local judicial system and theirs is most likely just as good as ours.

I'm sure the judge knows what she is doing or she wouldn't have drawn the case. Remember, whoever is assigning a case like this one over there isn't going to hand it over to an incompetent.

“Where did I put my tiara?”

Since: Dec 11

Columbus, OH

#5455 Jul 12, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
They aren't really changing the charges, though. Essentially the same things go into both charges, the same legal work, and the same things you have to do in court. Just the second degree murder charge adds an additional hurdle you have to jump.
Think of it this way: It's like the difference between a Honda Accord with leather and a V-6 (what he was charged with) and a Honda Accord with cloth seats and a 4 cylinder engine (manslaughter). Both essentially the same thing, just with a couple of different twists.
The bigger issue is whether or not this is standard practice in Florida, which it seems to be. As standard practice, the defense lawyer was prepared for this and is probably hyperventilating in order to make hay of something in case he has to appeal ... and maybe for public consumption.
BS, they tried to get in felony three. Again, asking your expertise, as limited as it may be in criminal law, it still matters, if George gets convicted, do you think he has a great chance of appeal with the way the trial went?

I reiterate, I was not there, unlike Reader. Just asking the opinion of a real lawyer. Not wannabes

Since: Apr 13

Hilliard, OH

#5456 Jul 12, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
You all should remember to take one thing into consideration when you are analyzing this stuff. Remember what happened over the tug of war over Rifqua Bary a few years ago? People in Florida were screaming about Ohio's "liberal" courts (that's a joke) and how sending her back home would result in an "honor killing". Likewise, people up here thought the Courts down in Florida were run by a bunch of rednecks who were catering to all the bible thumpers down in Florida.
So the lesson is to be careful when you are casting aspersions about something going on in a far-away place.
We trust (for the most part) our local judicial system and theirs is most likely just as good as ours.
I'm sure the judge knows what she is doing or she wouldn't have drawn the case. Remember, whoever is assigning a case like this one over there isn't going to hand it over to an incompetent.
Say what? If Nelson is an example of competence, then Florida has big problems.
Let's not forget Lance Ito, either. The only reason he was assigned to the OJ trial was because he was Asian.

“Where did I put my tiara?”

Since: Dec 11

Columbus, OH

#5457 Jul 12, 2013
Wait what wrote:
I think more casual observers use those icons. Everybody else uses words. Just a thought and I could be wrong.
Nope perfecto comment.

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

#5458 Jul 12, 2013
Wait what wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not as if the lawyers didn't know the law or how it could be applied.
Why wait until the end of the trial then?

“Bullsh*% Detector Enabled”

Since: Dec 08

Brooklyn, New York

#5459 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
When the judge forced Zimmerman to answer the question of whether or not he was going to testify, she violated his Miranda rights.

If he was going to testify, he would have been called, if he wasn't, the defense would have rested, therefore the question was totally unnecessary and improper.

What I don't know is if the jury was in the room at the time the question was asked. If they were, it could have influenced them as to Zimmerman's credibility.

Appealable issue?
His Miranda rights were not violated. There was no interrogation taking place, his lawyer was present, and a judge in their court room can demand that a question be answered by the witness, plaintiff, or defendant.

No relevance.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5460 Jul 12, 2013
GlitterSucks wrote:
<quoted text>BS, they tried to get in felony three. Again, asking your expertise, as limited as it may be in criminal law, it still matters, if George gets convicted, do you think he has a great chance of appeal with the way the trial went?
I reiterate, I was not there, unlike Reader. Just asking the opinion of a real lawyer. Not wannabes
To go back to my Honda Analogy, let's say the prosecutor is asking for the V-6 with leather. At the end of the trial, the prosecutor says I still want the V-6, but I'll settle for the 4-cylinder model.

That is okay, because it is a lesser version of the same charge.

What is not okay is for the prosecutor asking for something over and above what he initially asked for, like a Honda V-8 (I know Honda doesn't make V-8's) or something completely different like a Toyota.

The reason he can do this is that he asked for a V-6 and settled for a 4-cylinder version, essentially the lesser model of the same thing.

You can ask for less, when it involves proving the same things you had to prove for the initial charge, but not more.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5461 Jul 12, 2013
-Clayton Bigsby wrote:
<quoted text>Say what? If Nelson is an example of competence, then Florida has big problems.
Let's not forget Lance Ito, either. The only reason he was assigned to the OJ trial was because he was Asian.
Seminole is a big county so there are lots of judges there. Because they have lots of judges there, I'm guessing they have some kind of an assignment judge over in Seminole County. He is the one who would decide which judge gets assigned to a case like this.

Even if there is some kind of an auto-assignment mechanism, I'm sure there's someone who has veto power to make sure someone who knows is on the bench. This is a media trial, after all. They are also under extra scrutiny.

Since: Apr 13

Hilliard, OH

#5462 Jul 12, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Seminole is a big county so there are lots of judges there. Because they have lots of judges there, I'm guessing they have some kind of an assignment judge over in Seminole County. He is the one who would decide which judge gets assigned to a case like this.
Even if there is some kind of an auto-assignment mechanism, I'm sure there's someone who has veto power to make sure someone who knows is on the bench. This is a media trial, after all. They are also under extra scrutiny.
And she fit that bill:

Years before they would endure a televised pummeling in the Florida courtroom of Judge Debra Nelson, the two lawyers representing accused murderer George Zimmerman actually donated money to the prickly juristís first election campaign, records show.

In 1999, Republican Governor Jeb Bush appointed Nelson, a lifelong Democrat, to fill a vacancy in the 18th Judicial Circuit (covering Seminole and Brevard counties). When Nelson ran the following year for a full six-year term, she donated 85 percent of her campaignís $151,000 war chest.

The balance of Nelsonís contributions came that year from scores of Florida attorneys and law firms. Division of Elections records show that the judicial candidateís financial supporters included Zimmerman lawyers Mark OíMara and Don West, both of whom have felt the 59-year-old Nelsonís wrath over the past several weeks.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-m...

An across the aisle appointment, coupled with the perception of acceptability by the defense counsel. Politically ideal in this situation.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5463 Jul 12, 2013
-Clayton Bigsby wrote:
<quoted text>And she fit that bill:
Years before they would endure a televised pummeling in the Florida courtroom of Judge Debra Nelson, the two lawyers representing accused murderer George Zimmerman actually donated money to the prickly juristís first election campaign, records show.
In 1999, Republican Governor Jeb Bush appointed Nelson, a lifelong Democrat, to fill a vacancy in the 18th Judicial Circuit (covering Seminole and Brevard counties). When Nelson ran the following year for a full six-year term, she donated 85 percent of her campaignís $151,000 war chest.
The balance of Nelsonís contributions came that year from scores of Florida attorneys and law firms. Division of Elections records show that the judicial candidateís financial supporters included Zimmerman lawyers Mark OíMara and Don West, both of whom have felt the 59-year-old Nelsonís wrath over the past several weeks.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-m...
An across the aisle appointment, coupled with the perception of acceptability by the defense counsel. Politically ideal in this situation.
You have so much to learn about the way things work, grasshopper.

Lawyers, especially in the criminal realm, ALWAYS throw money to the judges they practice in front of. It's almost like how a church shakes you down for money ... you know them, and want to remain on good terms with them, so you give them money.

Works the same way here - party is not a consideration. The more important consideration is who's holding the seat. They same people supporting Larry Belskis supported Eric Brown and now Robert Montgomery.

========

By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

September 1, 2012

ORLANDO ó Debra S. Nelson, the new judge assigned to George Zimmerman's case, is a 13-year judicial veteran who has a reputation for working hard, being ambitious and imposing long prison terms.

Nelson, 58, was appointed to the bench in 1999 by then-Gov. Jeb Bush. In private practice, her specialty was civil litigation, but on the bench, she has spent most of her time ó seven years ó handling felony trials.

On Wednesday, the 5th District Court of Appeal in Daytona Beach ordered Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. to step aside from the case, saying comments he included in a $1-million bond order were enough to make a reasonable person think he was biased.

"It will take a tremendous amount of judicial courage at this point to throw the case out following an immunity hearing," said criminal defense attorney David Faulkner. "My guess is that any judge, Judge Nelson or otherwise, is going to let a jury decide this issue for the benefit of the public."

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