Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#5424 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
As you would have the right to do.
Look at it from both actors' perspectives. Soon as Martin saw the gun he was likely within his right to defend himself with lethal force.

Zimmerman cannot escape the fact that it was his actions that solely initiated the altercation.

woof
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5425 Jul 12, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Its a "lesser included charge", which means that when one is charged with the greater offense, all of the elements of the lesser charge are also elements required to be proven to obtain a conviction for the greater charge as well.
woof
I should have explained that, too. all the legal wags seem to be aghast at this revelation, so I assumed at first there was something odd happening.

I think the more important point here is the regularity of doing things this way in practice. If the concept of a "lesser included charge" is rare in Florida, then the defense has a legitimate beef if they weren't given enough notice so they could prepare to address a manslaughter conviction.

But since it seems that this is common practice in Florida, it seems that they should have already been prepared to counter a manslaughter charge at trial.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5426 Jul 12, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Look at it from both actors' perspectives. Soon as Martin saw the gun he was likely within his right to defend himself with lethal force.
Zimmerman cannot escape the fact that it was his actions that solely initiated the altercation.
woof
That complex had eight burglaries before the Trayvon Martin incident. He had drugs in his system and a phone full of texts documenting his propensity for violent acts.

As you are aware, I'm no fan of Zimmerman, but that was not some sweet, innocent kid finding himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

In my mind, it is still an issue of one guy who wants to play cop plus one thug. Sooner or later, that is going to be a lethal combination. I will say, however, that the nice things Zimmerman's neighbors had to say about him and his wife make me less negative toward him than I initially was.

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

#5427 Jul 12, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Its a "lesser included charge", which means that when one is charged with the greater offense, all of the elements of the lesser charge are also elements required to be proven to obtain a conviction for the greater charge as well.
woof
Personally, I think they should have been required to add these additional charges up front. It seems it would affect the way the defense defended the case.
sidekick

Columbus, OH

#5428 Jul 12, 2013
WISE AMERICAN wrote:
<quoted text>Exactly!! Unless a 17 year old is at least 200lbs, has experience in basic boxing skills or martial arts, I doubt very seriously one could kick my ass to the point I felt my LIFE was in danger!! Zimmerman is lying, hell, I've seen 125lb women defend themselves against 6ft 200lb men! You mean a lanky 17 year old outmuscled a grown man who's had MMA training, it's BS, and everyone who's honest knows it! The entire case is racial, "they always get away ", who are 'they ' Mr. Zimmerman?
You contradict a lot in your comments.
-Trevon wouldn't be able to take on a 200lb man, but you've seen women do it?
WISE AMERICAN wrote:
<quoted text> Paranoid has nothing to do with being violent! And if a creepy cracker were following your son in the dark of night I'll venture to say he'd be paranoid. Shall we test my theory? Drive your son on over to E.Main & Kimball around 11:30pm, tell him to get out and start walking east as you slowly pull away. You'll realize how paranoid and afraid he'll be once he hops back in the car 1/4 of a block away once the shadows start coming to life.
- So a white person "Should" be worried about where they walk in black neighborhoods, but it's racist when a black walks in another? If so, what's so shocking about this case to you? You say a white man is doomed by theory.
WISE AMERICAN wrote:
<quoted text> If I were the prosecutor my vision of what occurred according to the evidence, would be so planted in the minds of the jury, he would be found guilty of manslaughter!
-What would happen if you was defense attorney?

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

#5429 Jul 12, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Look at it from both actors' perspectives. Soon as Martin saw the gun he was likely within his right to defend himself with lethal force.
Zimmerman cannot escape the fact that it was his actions that solely initiated the altercation.
woof
While that's the prosecution's claim, it's far from proven in my opinion that Zimmerman started the actual altercation.

And yes, it is quite possible that both participants were in their minds defending their own lives. Not terribly unlike two people in the middle of the ocean fighting over the only life preserver.
Seriouslady

AOL

#5430 Jul 12, 2013
Wide rider is getting steamed. She'll be threatening to punch someone out soon.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#5431 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I think they should have been required to add these additional charges up front. It seems it would affect the way the defense defended the case.
I am in total agreement on that one. Plugging lesser charges in at the end smacks of desperation on the prosecution's part, and as you said, it not applying the full standard to the defense from day one.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5432 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I think they should have been required to add these additional charges up front. It seems it would affect the way the defense defended the case.
As I said in my last post, if this is standard practice in Florida (and it appears it is), then defense counsel should have known to address the lesser charge during trial.

I don't think manslaughter is going to fly, either, because of the third element (see below): "without lawful justification"

Second degree murder in FL requires:

-The unlawful killing of a human being,
-perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another
-evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life
-without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual

Manslaughter:

-The killing of a human being
-by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another,
-without lawful justification
-cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder

==========

Florida law (according to one blog):

Second degree murder requires proof of "imminently dangerous" conduct "evincing a depraved mind." Second degree murder is defined in Section 782.04(2), which provides:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life .

Zimmerman could have been charged with manslaughter, which is defined in Section 782.07(1). That section of the law provides:
The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree .

According to Section 775.082, the maximum penalty for a felony of the second degree is 15 years.
The truth is out there

Dayton, OH

#5433 Jul 12, 2013
WISE AMERICAN wrote:
<quoted text> If YOUR son was walking home from a store and a black man started following him what would be HIS reaction??? Would he stop to find out what the black stranger wanted, answer his questions, allow himself to be detained? What if that black guy approached him after he ran? Would he defend himself while crying for help?
You whities haven't thought that far, have you? I bet you people have taught your children NOT to talk to strangers since they were toddlers!! Why do you feel that a black teen has to comply with whatever orders a Caucasian gives them, no matter the situation?
Answer the questions.
Zimmerman isn't Caucasian. He is Hispanic. So, the old White man against Black man argument is invalid.
Sad day for all

Dayton, OH

#5434 Jul 12, 2013
Pale Rider wrote:
<quoted text>
Guilty of manslaughter. He killed someone, he needs to be punished for a senseless killing. You can't profile someone, because he is Black, shoot him, and lie about the facts. 2 minor scratches on the back of the head, and use that as a reason to kill. It is bad enough to have someone shot, like a sheep killing dog. We are talking about a human being killed. It isn't like a dog on the loose, and not on an owners leash. This was a human being on his way home from the store. He did not break into someones home. He had no stolen property on his person. He had broken no law.
That's because he was stopped before he could break one.
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#5435 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
While that's the prosecution's claim, it's far from proven in my opinion that Zimmerman started the actual altercation.
And yes, it is quite possible that both participants were in their minds defending their own lives. Not terribly unlike two people in the middle of the ocean fighting over the only life preserver.
In your example it would have been Zimmerman who purposefully put a hole in boat, necessitating the use of the only life preserver.

woof

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

#5436 Jul 12, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
As I said in my last post, if this is standard practice in Florida (and it appears it is), then defense counsel should have known to address the lesser charge during trial.
I don't think manslaughter is going to fly, either, because of the third element (see below): "without lawful justification"
Second degree murder in FL requires:
-The unlawful killing of a human being,
-perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another
-evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life
-without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual
Manslaughter:
-The killing of a human being
-by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another,
-without lawful justification
-cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder
==========
Florida law (according to one blog):
Second degree murder requires proof of "imminently dangerous" conduct "evincing a depraved mind." Second degree murder is defined in Section 782.04(2), which provides:
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life .
Zimmerman could have been charged with manslaughter, which is defined in Section 782.07(1). That section of the law provides:
The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree .
According to Section 775.082, the maximum penalty for a felony of the second degree is 15 years.
Plus 10 for using a gun.

“The One! The Only! RUKiddingme”

Since: Dec 08

Jersey, Baby!

#5437 Jul 12, 2013
The truth is out there wrote:
<quoted text>
Zimmerman isn't Caucasian. He is Hispanic. So, the old White man against Black man argument is invalid.
Hispanics can be any race, just like Americans.
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5438 Jul 12, 2013
The instructions to the jury completely disprove so many of the posts on here from certain people. Keep your day jobs!
Duke for Mayor

Akron, OH

#5439 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I think they should have been required to add these additional charges up front. It seems it would affect the way the defense defended the case.
Actually, it does not add anything into the case that would unfairly surprise the defense. The same elements that comprise manslaughter exist in the murder charge.

woof

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

#5440 Jul 12, 2013
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, it does not add anything into the case that would unfairly surprise the defense. The same elements that comprise manslaughter exist in the murder charge.
woof
But without the manslaughter charge, the defense wouldn't have to address those elements as strongly, only the ones that are elements of murder.
Enzyte Bob

Reynoldsburg, OH

#5441 Jul 12, 2013
Wait what wrote:
The instructions to the jury completely disprove so many of the posts on here from certain people. Keep your day jobs!
From law professor William A. Jacobson's blog, here is the money quote (jury instruction):

"If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.

If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find George Zimmerman not guilty."

========

I don't know about you all, but when someone is pounding my head against the concrete, I would consider that "great bodily harm"

=======

PDF with all jury instructions:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerma...
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5442 Jul 12, 2013
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
But without the manslaughter charge, the defense wouldn't have to address those elements as strongly, only the ones that are elements of murder.
It's not as if the lawyers didn't know the law or how it could be applied.
Wait what

Dublin, OH

#5443 Jul 12, 2013
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
From law professor William A. Jacobson's blog, here is the money quote (jury instruction):
"If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find George Zimmerman not guilty."
========
I don't know about you all, but when someone is pounding my head against the concrete, I would consider that "great bodily harm"
=======
PDF with all jury instructions:
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerma...
Excellent, thanks!

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