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Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

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#308
Apr 22, 2013
 

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FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
You keep harping on what the Catholic Church believes, as if this is what is legally important.
It is very important as it has to do with the free exercise of religion. The entire purpose of having church-based schools is so that children can be educated in an environment where they are also immersed in the tenets of the faith. This is important from the standpoint of actual religious education which you cannot receive from a secular government school, and also extends to fellowship with other people from like backgrounds and reinforcement of the Catholic lifestyle. These are all essential parts of being a Catholic both religiously AND CULTURALLY as I have commented on on numerous occasions.

Having an open homosexual teaching gym class is simply not consistent with what most Catholic parents want their children to be exposed to at that age.

Maybe people at the school knew about her perversion, maybe they didn't. The important thing is that the parents didn't know and once they complained the church had only one decision it could make.
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

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#309
Apr 22, 2013
 
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>

You keep harping on what the Catholic Church believes, as if this is what is legally important.
I will repost, gokeefe's post of P. 3 of the google docs link:

"Generally, courts will take jurisdiction where doctrine is not at stake. The realm of protection from judicial scrutiny is only what is required by faith and the discipline of faith (Basset, 1997)."

========

The issue of an open homosexual being employed by a person hired to educate a student in a religious environment is the important issue here.

"The realm of protection from judicial scrutiny is only what is required by faith and the discipline of faith." The Catholic faith requires that people abstain from engaging in both homosexual behavior and sex outside of marriage.

This is not just some minor irrelevant tenet of Catholic theology. Human sexuality is about as major as it gets.

“Big Dork”

Since: Oct 12

Little Bike

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#310
Apr 22, 2013
 
Hi Bob.
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

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#311
Apr 22, 2013
 
Duke for Mayor wrote:
<quoted text>
What does Tippy do?
Practice Law? Play some really mean ping pong? Shoot pool? Watch birds? Fish?
What?
woof
Tip doesn't come across as someone who practices law. He once thought I was an insurance agent, though.
Enzyte Bob

Blacklick, OH

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#312
Apr 22, 2013
 
Catholic school assistant principal fired over pro-gay marriage comments on his blog
The Archdiocese of Cincinnati fired Mike Moroski from his job at Purcell Marian High School, stating that he exhibited “poor judgment” and violated the teachings of the Catholic church. Moroski knew the risks of his post but felt strongly about supporting gay marriage and was “absolutely willing to lose my job over this.”

Comments (16)
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2013, 12:39 PM

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cath...

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

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#313
Apr 22, 2013
 

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-The-Artist- wrote:
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Hyperbole, firing those who don't abide by the organizations rules is not equivalent to honor killings.
Oh, so the government can force religions to do some things but not others...
Your letting emotions cloud your judgement.
Nope. Just applying logic.
The idea that the state can order an institution, a ideologically based non-profit institution, to employ people that don't agree with the institution's principles, is an abuse of power.
Uh huh... Let's just get rid of all civil rights laws while we're at it. And tax exempt status for all religious institutions too.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#314
Apr 22, 2013
 
Che Reagan Christ wrote:
<quoted text>
If there is an employment contract, then the employment isn't at will.
True.

I was not aware that the Catholic Educators had formed their own union. Thus, Ms. Hale has signed a personal teaching contract which is subject to the Agreement between the Diocese and COACE, specifically Article 20, referencing termination for immorality and/or unethical conduct.

Still, the terms of the contract are fairly liberal when it comes to termination by either party.

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

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#315
Apr 22, 2013
 
FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
Bit of a straw man, there, dontcha think?
How so? "Free exercise" was the premise.
But, an equivalent situation might be imagined. Could a Muslim school hire a non-Muslim as a gym teacher and then fire them using a morals clause if they found out that the teacher regularly eats pork?
Not in Columbus as the law is written.
What we are essentially dealing with is a legal question regarding a conflict of rights. How far can a religious organization go in demanding specific religiously-dictated behaviors on the part of employees hired to handle secular tasks? And how far can the state go in protecting the rights of workers from discrimination in a variety of situations when the employer is a religious institution?
I don't see simple answers and I expect definitions to shift based on court cases that hone in on specifics.
But all the emotionalism and claims of Catholic-bashing are not going to help. Neither is the attitude that a contract is a contract is a contract. Some contract clauses are unenforceable, as they violate principles in law. And frankly, the morals clauses that I have seen quoted here differ very little from those typically included in public school teacher contracts--despite the belief of many here that they clearly spell out specific Catholic beliefs.
I predict that Columbus' law will be found unconstitutional if challenged, not that I believe it should be.

Since: Jan 13

Returning with a vengeance

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#316
Apr 22, 2013
 
TonyD2 wrote:
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Oh, so the government can force religions to do some things but not others...
Largely, yes they can.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#317
Apr 22, 2013
 
Che Reagan Christ wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand the law. If there is a contract, then the employment isn't at will. Both parties have rights under the contract. Also, at will employees have protection against being fired for reasons of race, creed, sex, and religion. I'm not saying how any of that might apply in this scenario, I'm just saying that your simplisitic impression of employer/employee law is wrong.
As you surely know, it is difficult to actually prove firing due to "race, creed, sex and religion" within a secular institution. In Hale's instance, it is inapplicable, as she was well aware of the terms of her employment.

Most companies maintain excellent documentation of employee performance records and are very skilled at protecting themselves from frivolous discrimination suits.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#318
Apr 22, 2013
 
Che Reagan Christ wrote:
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The real fun will begin when the Church starts applying that standard to priests.
The Church has already purged, and continues to purge, homosexual priests from its ranks...as a direct result of the adult-child sex scandal.

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#319
Apr 22, 2013
 
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Having an open homosexual teaching gym class is simply not consistent with what most Catholic parents want their children to be exposed to at that age.
I would say it is questionable how "open" this teacher was, however, the same might be true of many parents in a public school at well, and yet, in Columbus anyway, this is not a valid reason for denying employment.

Here is some information about the Michigan case, significant because it dealt with the "Ministerial Exception" formally acknowledging it, although it was vague in exactly how the limits of same might be determined in other cases.

"Last summer, MT reported on a landmark case headed to the U.S. Supreme Court involving a former teacher, Cheryl Perich, who was fired from her job at Hosana-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School in Redford.

"On Wednesday, the Court ruled unanimously in favor of the school’s firing, but left some court-watchers scratching their heads over what the implications exactly are.

"Perich went on medical leave for developing narcolepsy in 2005. After six months she was cleared to return to work by her doctor, but the church refused her return arguing she couldn’t perform her job.

"She threatened legal action to get her job back — and was promptly fired. The church said school policy requires them to resolve disputes internally. But Perich sued for a retaliatory firing on top of filing a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, claiming her termination violated the Americans with Disabilities Act.

"The church argued they were protected under a “ministerial exception,” a provision created by case law which prohibits ministers and other employees with significant religious duties from bringing claims against the religious institutions they’re employed by. The provision allows church’s an exemption from some federal laws, including anti-discrimination laws.

"Perich’s lawyers said the limited religious instructional duties of her position fell short of the ministerial exception. She held the title of “called teacher” after completing church-based training, but mostly taught secular subjects only occasionally teaching religious studies.

"A NYT editorial summed up the somewhat-baffling result that arose from Wednesday’s decision by avoiding ministerial classification:


"In his opinion for the unanimous court, Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. seems to minimize the scope of the ruling by avoiding “a rigid formula for deciding when an employee qualifies as a minister” and by not saying how the exception would apply in other circumstances.

"Although the court does not provide much guidance on how to proceed in future lawsuits against churches as employers, the ruling has broad sweep. It abandons the court’s longtime practice of balancing the interest in the free exercise of religion against important government interests, like protection against workplace bias or retaliation. With a balancing test, courts consider whether a general law, if applied to a religious institution, would inhibit its freedom more broadly than justified and, in those circumstances, courts could exempt the church.

"Furthermore, the opinion offered no potential indication for how Perich could have considered fighting back, and an additional footnote left the potential for future courts to take up similar cases.

"So, the Court unanimously decided Perich was considered a minister but offered no concrete definition for future scenarios."
http://blogs.metrotimes.com/index.php/2012/01...

“Don't trust the internet!”

Since: Jan 12

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#320
Apr 22, 2013
 

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TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
How so? "Free exercise" was the premise.
<quoted text>
Not in Columbus as the law is written.
<quoted text>
I predict that Columbus' law will be found unconstitutional if challenged, not that I believe it should be.
On what Constitutional grounds?

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#321
Apr 22, 2013
 
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice try, but what you think should be the Catholic Church's positions on sexuality is of no matter. The Catholic Church considers human sexuality sacred and has specific teachings that it wants reinforced, specifically that there is to be no sex outside of marriage and especially not homosexual sex. Whether you think the Catholic Church should adopt baby boomer sensibilities is irrelevant. The Catholic Church has a 2,000 year tradition of these teachings and they are an essential part of the faith.
You know full well that teachers even in government schools get fired for lapses in personal morality alllllllll the time. This is because it is not only obviously disruptive when children find out about these behaviors, but because it is also generally agreed that children do not need to be exposed to the seedier side of life at a young age.
Forcing the Catholic Church to employ a teacher who openly lives a lifestyle contrary to what is being taught in a Catholic School would be like forcing the Catholic Church to employ Rabbis and Imams as parish priests because of laws relating to religious discrimination.
Rick Pfeifer is a very smart attorney, he isn't going to push this issue because he not only knows it's a loser for the city, but because he's not going to want the headache of a culture war on his hands.
Absolutely.

Every aspect of a parochial education is related to a biblical worldview.

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

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#322
Apr 22, 2013
 

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Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
And if the church gets taxed, we're going to make sure that all your lib pet causes like move on, common cause, Peeta, in the AFL CIO also have to pay tax.
No special treatment. OK by me.

Since: Jan 13

Returning with a vengeance

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#323
Apr 22, 2013
 

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FKA Reader wrote:
<quoted text>
On what Constitutional grounds?
Freedom of exercise, association.

“animis opibusque parati”

Since: Oct 12

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#324
Apr 22, 2013
 

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Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
It is very important as it has to do with the free exercise of religion. The entire purpose of having church-based schools is so that children can be educated in an environment where they are also immersed in the tenets of the faith. This is important from the standpoint of actual religious education which you cannot receive from a secular government school, and also extends to fellowship with other people from like backgrounds and reinforcement of the Catholic lifestyle. These are all essential parts of being a Catholic both religiously AND CULTURALLY as I have commented on on numerous occasions.
Having an open homosexual teaching gym class is simply not consistent with what most Catholic parents want their children to be exposed to at that age.
Maybe people at the school knew about her perversion, maybe they didn't. The important thing is that the parents didn't know and once they complained the church had only one decision it could make.
Again, absolutely correct.
The parents are paying top dollar for a parochial education -- that is, a biblical worldview applied to every subject.

It is completely incongruent to have as an instuctor someone who rejects that entire philosophy of education.

“Don't trust the internet!”

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#325
Apr 22, 2013
 
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
How so? "Free exercise" was the premise.
<quoted text>
Not in Columbus as the law is written.
<quoted text>
I predict that Columbus' law will be found unconstitutional if challenged, not that I believe it should be.
The straw man had to do with the reference to "honor killings."

Since: Jan 13

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#326
Apr 22, 2013
 
TonyD2 wrote:
<quoted text>
No special treatment. OK by me.
That also means that the campaign finance restrictions would have to go.

“Ludibrium est onus genio”

Since: Dec 11

Planet Earth

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#327
Apr 22, 2013
 
Enzyte Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
It is very important as it has to do with the free exercise of religion. The entire purpose of having church-based schools is so that children can be educated in an environment where they are also immersed in the tenets of the faith.
Nope. My daughter went to Catholic school because we felt she would get a better education than at the public alternatives. We're not Catholic.

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