Preacher: "We're not anti-Mormon, just pro-truth"

Mar 23, 2012 Full story: The WSU Signpost 242

Eli Brayley, self-proclaimed Christian preacher, stood in front of the statue outside of the Miller Administration Building yesterday discussing Christianity with a student after finishing his own preaching about the free gift of salvation and the fallacies of the Mormon faith.

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“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#21 Mar 27, 2012
Osirica wrote:
YEA AND THAT LIE IS CONFESSED IN THE BIBLE
That's the DIFFERENCE.
The FLAWS of the APOSTLES ARE SHOWN FOR THE WORLD TO SEE,
NOT HIDDEN LIKE SMITH AND HIS ENDLESS LYING.
And with THAT undeniable FACT,
this conversation has ENDED AS WELL
<quoted text>
It's ended with your abstract logic, that is all.
Whether Smith is or isn't a prophet isn't the point. Smith said he was a man of God as other people proclaim as yourself. You have a deep streak of bigoted racism in you, should that mean your not a Christian or a man of God?
You judge people before you have all the evidence in concerning what they've done. That makes you a judgmental bigot, basing your judgement on skin color, not wisdom the Lord's blessed you with.
You'll forgive the apostles and others of the OT for their lies and trespasses and murderous deeds etc. Yet you'll hold Smith accountable for things you don't even understand. And you think that's a good thing to do? Yea Right.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22 Mar 27, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
This will be interesting.
Give the names of all the 14 year old girls you said Smith married and or was having sex with. You did earlier state Smith was marrying and having sex with 14 year old girls, as in plural, meaning more then one.
I want non-LDS links and LDS links that'll confirm any information of these 14 year olds you say he married and was having sex with.
So show what you believe are your facts :)
Wasn't one enough? It would be if it was my daughter. As you only have to kill one man to be considered a murderer, you only have to molest one child to be a child molester. But at least you admit he molested the one. That should be enough for you to reject him as any type of prophet if you had a normal moral compass.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#23 Mar 27, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Wasn't one enough? It would be if it was my daughter. As you only have to kill one man to be considered a murderer, you only have to molest one child to be a child molester. But at least you admit he molested the one. That should be enough for you to reject him as any type of prophet if you had a normal moral compass.
Nice dodge but a lousy one at that.
You stated Smith was marrying 14 year old girls in your post #13. You insinuated he married two or more 14 year old girls for the purpose of sex.
Prove Smith married two or more 14 year old girls like you said you could prove it. You stated... "I can prove any of my claims. Test me, please."
I'm waiting...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#24 Mar 27, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Wasn't one enough? It would be if it was my daughter. As you only have to kill one man to be considered a murderer, you only have to molest one child to be a child molester. But at least you admit he molested the one. That should be enough for you to reject him as any type of prophet if you had a normal moral compass.
By the way, I admitted nothing of Smith concerning his marriage to anyone. Please don't stoop that low and say I have said what I haven't.
Next, I don't know exactly what transpired with Smith and the females he married. What I do know, is that the only actual surviving descendants of Smith's that exist, DNA tests have been done to prove they are all directly related to Smith and Lucy, not Smith and any other wife.
Understand the implication of the statement? That means if it is true that Smith was sexing all his wives as you would no doubt believe, he shot blanks except for Lucy. That would be a real scientific oddity, that a man screwing a dozen women not using birth devices and only one continually became pregnant and none other did. Unless he wasn't having sex with the other so called "wives". And they were just that, a wife and no more.
Doubt it? Google DNA and Joseph Smith's descendants. I last read info on it last year.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#25 Mar 27, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
By the way, I admitted nothing of Smith concerning his marriage to anyone. Please don't stoop that low and say I have said what I haven't.
Now who is being dogy. By asking for evidence of more than one you are admitting there is one. Yes, I misstated using the plural form, but he did stick his penis in just about any woman he could con, including other men's wives. Would it be OK if Monson spread your wife's legs, even if he claimed it was in the name of the Lord? If it wouldn't, why do you support a pig who did? Why would you believe anything such a pervert would say concerning Hod? How can one even begin to trust such a pig?
Next, I don't know exactly what transpired with Smith and the females he married. What I do know, is that the only actual surviving descendants of Smith's that exist, DNA tests have been done to prove they are all directly related to Smith and Lucy, not Smith and any other wife.
Now why is it that all of a sudden you trust DNA concerning Joseph Smith's activities yet are still in denial about the Book of Mormon, where DNA has also shown that it is a total lie and piece of fiction. Hello? Native Americans did not come from the Jews.
Understand the implication of the statement? That means if it is true that Smith was sexing all his wives as you would no doubt believe, he shot blanks except for Lucy. That would be a real scientific oddity, that a man screwing a dozen women not using birth devices and only one continually became pregnant and none other did. Unless he wasn't having sex with the other so called "wives". And they were just that, a wife and no more.
Doubt it? Google DNA and Joseph Smith's descendants. I last read info on it last year.
1. You are assuming that they have tested all the possible candidates that could be related to him. That hasn't been proven.
2. You are assuming he would have only had vaginal sex with them. Do you not know that oral and anal sex were the first forms of birth control practiced?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#26 Mar 27, 2012
*would say concerning God?

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27 Mar 27, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Now who is being dogy. By asking for evidence of more than one you are admitting there is one. Yes, I misstated using the plural form, but he did stick his penis in just about any woman he could con, including other men's wives. Would it be OK if Monson spread your wife's legs, even if he claimed it was in the name of the Lord? If it wouldn't, why do you support a pig who did? Why would you believe anything such a pervert would say concerning Hod? How can one even begin to trust such a pig?
<quoted text>
Now why is it that all of a sudden you trust DNA concerning Joseph Smith's activities yet are still in denial about the Book of Mormon, where DNA has also shown that it is a total lie and piece of fiction. Hello? Native Americans did not come from the Jews.
<quoted text>
1. You are assuming that they have tested all the possible candidates that could be related to him. That hasn't been proven.
2. You are assuming he would have only had vaginal sex with them. Do you not know that oral and anal sex were the first forms of birth control practiced?
In an above post you said in reply..."Wasn't one enough?" showing you down graded your rumormongering that Smith didn't marry "girls of 14" but just a single girl of 14.
I then gave you the benefit of the doubt that maybe he did marry one 14 year old. I was going by your statement, not what I believed. But my question was the same based on your statement. Even if he just married one fourteen year old as you now claim, I wanted proof of this one marriage to a 14 year old you said existed.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#28 Mar 27, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
Yes, I misstated using the plural form, but he did stick his penis in just about any woman he could con, including other men's wives.
It takes quite a vile and very demented mind to fathom up such a statement that you made in the above. Especially since you're speaking of a man that lived some 160 years ago. I had no idea that there was so much information out there detailing such facts of who Smith was having sex with.
Please enlighten me with links to these documented writings. I'm quite interested to see who would take the time to detail another person's sex life in the 1840s. Most people in that time era had more respect of another persons sex life then we have respect for as you so vilely prove.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#29 Mar 27, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
Now why is it that all of a sudden you trust DNA concerning Joseph
Please don't pull an ignorant number on me. You stated Smith had sex with many many women/girls. So I said a nice dozen for an example.
If Smith was having sex with 12 wives, he would have lots and lots of off spring from at least 5 to 7 of those wives. You did say(with no proof yet)he was screwing females all over the place, wives or not wives. So if what you claim is true, then there is no logical way that his only documented off spring would come from Emma.
And that is your problem. And DNA facts make you a vile, lying rumormonger. Understand?
Dozens and dozens of people claimed to be direct descendants of Joseph Smith junior. They all consented to DNA testing as someone was curious as to who was a descendant and who wasn't.
The DNA showed only a handful were actually connected to Joseph through his and Emma's son Joseph.
The DNA tests showed that Joseph never had children with any other women but with Emma. Get it? That implies Smith wasn't screwing all the females you think he was screwing.
It is a biological impossibility for one guy to screw a dozen to 2 dozen females and only have children by one of the women in the 1830s and 40s.
That means your spreading rumors that you know you have no facts for. That make you a lying rumormongoring vile mouthed person. Nice of you to self define yourself :)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#30 Mar 28, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
In an above post you said in reply..."Wasn't one enough?" showing you down graded your rumormongering that Smith didn't marry "girls of 14" but just a single girl of 14.
I then gave you the benefit of the doubt that maybe he did marry one 14 year old. I was going by your statement, not what I believed. But my question was the same based on your statement. Even if he just married one fourteen year old as you now claim, I wanted proof of this one marriage to a 14 year old you said existed.
Turns out I was right the first time. There were two, so i was accurate using the plural form.

Please refer to this link: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org

Joseph Smith didn't have sexual relationships with just one 14-year old girl - he had sex with two:

Helen Mar Kimball
and
Nancy Winchester.

And their stories are as follows:
(both are fully cited if you click the "link to source" and then click on "References")
----------
HELEN MAR KIMBALL
----------
In 1843 Apostle Heber C. Kimball had an important talk with his only daughter, fourteen-year-old Helen Mar. She wrote:“Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically,‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth.[This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.”

Then father “asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.” Unknown to Helen Mar, Heber and Joseph had already discussed the prospect of Helen Mar becoming one of Joseph’s wives. Heber now sought her agreement. Helen recalls,“Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter”

The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me,‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.” Helen’s mother reluctantly agreed and in May of 1843, Helen married Joseph Smith.

Continued on next post...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#31 Mar 28, 2012
During the winter of 1843-44, there were weekly parties at Joseph Smith’s Mansion House. Many of Helen’s friends attended, as well as her sixteen-year-old brother William. Disappointed, Helen wrote,“my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”

In June 1844, Heber was away from home on a mission and wrote to Helen:“MY DEAR DAUGHTER-...be obedient to the counsel you have given to you...If you should be tempted, or having feelings in your heart, tell them to no one but your father and mother; if you do, you will be betrayed and exposed...You are blessed, but you know it not. You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come. I will admit there is not much pleasure in this world...Be true to the covenants that you have made...Be a good girl;...your affectionate father.” A few weeks later Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage. After one year of marriage, Helen was a widow.

Helen’s father would eventually marry thirty-nine wives. She wrote,“I had, in hours of temptation when seeing the trials of my mother, felt to rebel. I hated polygamy in my heart.” Helen later fell victim to a prolonged illness:“For three months I lay a portion of the time like one dead...I tasted of the punishment which is prepared for those who reject any of the principles of this Gospel.” Eventually she was converted to polygamy and recovered from her illness,“I fasted for one week, and every day I gained until I had won the victory...I learned that plural marriage is a celestial principle, and saw... the necessity of obedience to those who hold the priesthood, and the danger of rebelling against or speaking lightly of the Lord’s annointed”. Helen later summarized her experience with plural marriage in a poem:

I thought through this life my time will be my own
The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,
No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,
And as the past hath been the future still will be.
To my guileless heart all free from worldly care
And full of blissful hopes and youthful visions rare
The world seamed bright the thret’ning clouds were kept
From sight and all looked fair...

...but pitying angels wept.
They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.
And poisonous darts from sland’rous tongues were hurled,
Untutor’d heart in thy gen’rous sacrafise,
Thou dids’t not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;
Thy happy dreams all o’er thou’st doom’d also to be
Bar’d out from social scenes by this thy destiny,
And o’er thy sad’nd mem’ries of sweet departed joys
Thy sicken’d heart will brood and imagine future woes,
And like a fetter’d bird with wild and longing heart,
Thou’lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

But could’st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,
Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.
Pure and exalted was thy father’s aim, he saw
A glory in obeying this high celestial law,
For to thousands who’ve died without the light
I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.
I’d been taught to reveire the Prophet of God
And receive every word as the word of the Lord,
But had this not come through my dear father’s mouth,
I should ne’r have received it as God’s sacred truth.
Link to source = http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMar...

Continued on the next post...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32 Mar 28, 2012
NANCY WINCHESTER
----------
Nancy was born August 10, 1828 in Erie County Pennsylvania. She was the only daughter of Stephen and Nancy Winchester. When the younger Nancy was four-years-old the Winchesters were visited in Erie by two Mormon missionaries, John F. Boynton and Evan M. Greene. Nancy’s parents and older brother, Benjamin, were soon baptized.

The following year, the Winchesters moved to Kirtland, Ohio to be near others who shared their faith. Following Mormon practice, Nancy was probably baptized when she turned eight- years of age.

By 1842 the Winchesters had spent time in Missouri and were now settled in Nauvoo, living in the “third ward”. In May of that year, Nancy joined the Female Relief Society where she served on committees with the charter “to search out the poor and suffering-To call on the rich for aid and thus as far as possible relieve the wants of all.”

Nancy’s marriage to Joseph is undocumented, although according to Mormon Church Historian Andrew Jenson, Nancy married Joseph sometime before his death in June of 1844. Nancy would have been fourteen or fifteen years old.

A few months after Joseph Smith’s death, Nancy and another six of Joseph’s wives married Heber C. Kimball. Since the temple had not been completed when Nancy married Joseph, she was re-sealed to him in 1846 in the near complete, but dedicated, Nauvoo temple. Her husband “for time”, Heber C. Kimball stood proxy for Joseph Smith in this sealing.

Nancy immigrated to Utah in 1849. Several years later she received a patriarchal blessing from John Smith. She was blessed,“to heal the sick, cast out devils, and raise the dead, if necessary.”

Nancy died on March 17, 1876 in Salt Lake City.

Link to source = http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/33-NancyWin...

And anyone who wants to dispute that JS didn't have sex with these girls please refer to this link:
http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#33 Mar 28, 2012
Concerning your Nancy Winchester, take all information, pro or con or neutral with a grain of salt.

Both pro and con admit the evidence for Winchester's marriage to Smith BEFORE his death is
undocumented. In other words it's a matter of he said she said they said...
She was sealed to Smith after his death. But many wives(questionable wives)were sealed to Smith AFTER his death WITHOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE.

Also, it was not claimed by Kimbal or Winchester that their marriage was consummated. Unfortunately for you that means you have no proof Smith had sex with either girl. You're assuming they did and you know the rule about assuming without evidence? It makes an *ss of your logic :)

Nancy’s marriage to Joseph is undocumented, although according to Mormon Church Historian Andrew Jenson, Nancy married Joseph sometime before his death in June of 1844. Nancy would have beehttp://www.wivesofjosephsmi th.org/33-NancyWinchester.htmn fourteen or fifteen years old.
.......
Nancy Maria Winchester. Nancy's chapter is entitled "Outline of a Shadow," which suggests how little is known about a possible sealing to the Prophet. Compton gives two lines of unsupported information (see p. 606). Nancy appears on Jenson's list without additional data, except for an incorrect identification of her father. She is also named by Orson F. Whitney in a group of women Heber C. Kimball later married who had been Joseph Smith's wives.8 However, Elder Whitney's list also includes Mary Houston and Sarah Scott, both of whom Compton considers as only "possible wives" (p. 8). Thus the author picks out Nancy Winchester as meeting historical standards but treats Whitney's list as questionable in the case of these other women on that list. Compton claims a difference because Nancy is also named by Jenson, but no one knows where Whitney or Jenson got their information. The cumulative evidence argument for such marginal references does not meet historical guidelines: "These two witnesses, taken together, make a good case for Nancy as a plural spouse of Joseph" (p. 606). The logic is lacking—two tanks of ordinary gas do not produce a high-octane mix.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#34 Mar 28, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
"...but he did stick his penis in just about any woman he could con, including other men's wives.
You made the above statement as if it were fact. That means when you present something as fact, it is up to you to supply evidence. Other wise do the wise thing and state it's your opinion and nothing more.

The below link has some extensive information and links for their sources of information, quite reliable as it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wive...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#35 Mar 28, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You made the above statement as if it were fact. That means when you present something as fact, it is up to you to supply evidence. Other wise do the wise thing and state it's your opinion and nothing more.
The below link has some extensive information and links for their sources of information, quite reliable as it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wive...
You don't marry someone to shake their hands.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#36 Mar 28, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't marry someone to shake their hands.
First lesson in learning about that thing you disagree with, you have to be just a bit open to reading what you really don't want to read.

First to understand the basics of polygamy and not from a pro or con point of view, you need to read what the Bible says of it and know how man kind has believed in it.
Polygamy and bigamy have both existed for thousands of years. In Africa and Central and South America and parts of Asia a woman can still have two or more husbands. And we know how wide spread polygamy is.
Polygamy is first mentioned in Genesis. Abraham practiced it. David was given his wives by the Lord. King Solomon had many, many wives.
Jewish law(till they stopped practicing it sometime after their dispersion to the northern countries)said Jewish males obeying the Laws of Moses could have multiple wives up to the time of Jesus and shortly after.
Point being, polygamy is obviously an institution brought to be by God himself. I say that because Smith recognized that fact that Christians rejected. Christians said no more polygamy, not God.
Smith had an idea of polygamy and why God allowed it to exist. Smith came to believe that the verse about what is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven pertained heavily to marriages between a man and woman(s). That the traditional saying of "...till death do you part." was an error of thinking by Christians of marriage.
Smith believed marriage was the focal point of life and it's societies and as long as marriage was viewed sacred with respect, so to would that community think the same unto itself.
Smith believed God gave him permission to marry multiple wives. Most of these wives, Emma included, accepted what he taught. They also believed in it.
Smith married many women who never stated they consummated the relationship. Most all these women Smith married, he supported financially. In other words many women he married he did so to give them his name and to have a place to call home. They stated these things in their diaries. Some of them never even lived with him. They just wanted or decided they wished to be married to him and lived life accordingly.
But the fact remains no matter how much you wish to insinuate other wise, Smith had children with only Emma. DNA has never substantiated that Smith had children by any other wife. That means something about his lack of sexual activity you claim other wise about. Understand?
Smith may have had sex with one of those "wives". That is possible. The problem is that as far as I have read of those wives keeping diaries and or made statements of Smith, none claimed to have had their marriage consummated or had sex with him.
That information means Smith married those women for other reasons and purposes that are documented as having married him prior to his death. All those rumored to have married him before that their isn't evidence for, even they have not declared they consummated their marriage to Smith.
So that is something to consider, not to dismiss as you have done previously :)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#37 Mar 29, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
First lesson in learning about that thing you disagree with, you have to be just a bit open to reading what you really don't want to read.
First to understand the basics of polygamy and not from a pro or con point of view, you need to read what the Bible says of it and know how man kind has believed in it.
Polygamy and bigamy have both existed for thousands of years. In Africa and Central and South America and parts of Asia a woman can still have two or more husbands. And we know how wide spread polygamy is.
Polygamy is first mentioned in Genesis. Abraham practiced it. David was given his wives by the Lord. King Solomon had many, many wives.
Jewish law(till they stopped practicing it sometime after their dispersion to the northern countries)said Jewish males obeying the Laws of Moses could have multiple wives up to the time of Jesus and shortly after.
Point being, polygamy is obviously an institution brought to be by God himself.
If so, why did God warn against it? Those who would contend that the Bible never negatively treats polygamy are wrong. Consider the warning given to prospective and actual kings of Israel:

"16: But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17: Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold" (Deut. 17).

The ideal marriage, according to God. The very first marriage, Adam and Eve, in many ways serves as a prototype, if you will. Notice that God knew that it was not good that Adam be alone and God provided for Adam a "help meet" (counter part that was a complement to Adam, Gen. 2: 18). Observe how God did not simply provide another man, but for Adam God made woman, the "glory of the man" (Gen. 2: 18ff., I Cor. 11: 7ff.). Moreover, appreciate the fact that when God instituted marriage, it was one man and one woman (Gen. 2). If polygamy is the "ideal," as some are teaching, why, then, did not God create Eve, Sue, Jane, etc. for Adam?

Some of the most beautiful teaching relative to the intimacy and duration of marriage resides in Malachi 2:

"14: Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15: And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth."

Notice how the practice of many wives just does not fit into the passage. However, how about all the references to polygamy in the Bible?

Just because the Bible mentions a trait or act of an individual, even a godly person, does not necessarily mean that the Bible endorsed such. The mentioning of Noah becoming drunk and disgracing himself is mentioned, but certainly not condoned. I submit that God was not pleased with polygamy, an aberrant from the monogamous marriage God put in place, but that he did two things:(1). God tolerated polygamy during the maturation of his people and (2) he sought to regulate the evil practice.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#38 Mar 29, 2012
Polygamy is expressly denounced pertaining to the leaders of God’s people.

"2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach," "6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly" (I Tim. 3; Tit. 1).

The expression "husband of one wife" was provided by the Holy Spirit and must be respected. The Holy Spirit could have worded this requirement a number of ways. This construction requires marriage (present marriage) but forbids polygamy.

Thus in the case of the Hebrew leaders (the kings) and in the case of the rulers of God’s people today (cp. Heb. 13: 17), having more than one wife is expressly forbidden. Why would one think such would not also follow regarding those under these men?

No Surprise:
I say that because Smith recognized that fact that Christians rejected. Christians said no more polygamy, not God.
Smith had an idea of polygamy and why God allowed it to exist. Smith came to believe that the verse about what is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven pertained heavily to marriages between a man and woman(s). That the traditional saying of "...till death do you part." was an error of thinking by Christians of marriage.
Smith believed marriage was the focal point of life and it's societies and as long as marriage was viewed sacred with respect, so to would that community think the same unto itself.
Smith believed God gave him permission to marry multiple wives. Most of these wives, Emma included, accepted what he taught. They also believed in it.
And Smith was clearly wrong concerning eternal marriage. Jesus clearly taught:

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

This was expressed in all four Gospels. If you are married for eternity. If husband dead and the wife remarried, she would be committing adultery. But Paul clearly taught:

Romans 7:2-3
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Now you are lying to yourself. Emma, never did except it. That is the reason there was an Reorganized LDS church.

It is that verse we get the phrase: "Until death do us part."

To be continued...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#39 Mar 29, 2012
No Surprise:
Smith married many women who never stated they consummated the relationship. Most all these women Smith married, he supported financially. In other words many women he married he did so to give them his name and to have a place to call home. They stated these things in their diaries. Some of them never even lived with him. They just wanted or decided they wished to be married to him and lived life accordingly.
You need to read more than, because several gave statements to the fact they did have sex with him.

Todd Compton, author of "In Sacred Loneliness" wrote:

QUOTE:
"Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives-despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American religion which otherwise would have prevented mention of sexual relations in marriage."

Compton goes on to to include the following to support these claims:

QUOTE:
- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed."
(Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman.
(Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.
(Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

In addition a total of 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

QUOTE:
- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
(William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106))

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith:[color=red]"I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F."
(Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.""
(Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

So to claim that Joseph Smith didn't have intercourse with his polygamous wives in the face of the evidence is rather silly. It's very clear that he did.

To be continued...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#40 Mar 29, 2012
But the fact remains no matter how much you wish to insinuate other wise, Smith had children with only Emma. DNA has never substantiated that Smith had children by any other wife. That means something about his lack of sexual activity you claim other wise about. Understand?
Because Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in relative secrecy, the details of children he may have fathered by his plural wives is uncertain. In a 1905 speech at Brigham Young University, Joseph's wife, Mary Elizabeth Rollins explained, "I know he [Joseph] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." ("Remarks", April 14, 1905, BYU Lee Library).

Josephine Lyon, daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon, wrote,“Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

As with Josephine, these children were most likely borne by women who already had a husband when they married Joseph Smith, and may have been raised using the first husband’s surname. Still, questions remain regarding who these children may have been.

Today, DNA science may be providing answers. One method of doing this is by tracing a portion of the Y Chromosome, which remains essentially unchanged as it passes from father to son. By analyzing the DNA of a male descendant, the paternity of the ancestor can be determined.

Although Y Chromosome testing is extremely useful in cases involving unbroken paternal lineages, it cannot be used to identify alleged daughters, such as Josephine Lyon, that Joseph Smith may have fathered. To understand these cases, complex genetic testing involving autosomal DNA (the DNA found in the remaining chromosomes) is required.

Historians have previously identified eight possible children of Joseph Smith borne by his plural wives. As of November 2007, DNA testing has shown that three of these eight children were not fathered by Joseph Smith. Two other children died as infants and therefore left no posterity. DNA testing is underway or remains a possiblity for the the remaining three. They are listed below, along with the traditionally recognized mother and father:

Josephine Lyon (Birth: February 8, 1844)
Mother: Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Father: Windsor Lyon

Frank Henry Hyde (Birth: January 23, 1845, 1846?)
Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde
Father: Orson Hyde

John Reed Hancock (Birth: April 19, 1841)
Mother: Clarissa Reed Hancock
Father: Levi Hancock

DIED AS INFANTS::

George Algernon Lightner (Birth: March 22, 1842)
Mother: Mary Rollins Lightner
Father: Adam Lightner

Orson Washington Hyde (Birth: November 9, 1843)
Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde
Father: Orson Hyde

DNA TESTING COMPLETE:

Moroni Pratt (Birth: December 7, 1844)
Mother: Mary Ann Frost
Father: Parley P. Pratt (confirmed via DNA research - May 2005)

Zebulon Jacobs (Birth: January 2, 1842)
Mother: Zina Huntington Jacobs
Father: Henry Jacobs (confirmed via DNA research – May 2005)

Oliver Buell (Birth: 1838 – 39)
Mother: Presendia Huntington Buell
Father: Norman Buell (confirmed via DNA research – November 2007)

The LDS church even reported on it in their own newspaper http://www.deseretnews.com/article/600137517/...

To be continued...

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