Apache wilderness outfitter Joe Saenz

His answering machine message includes several phrases in the Apache language, and one of those phrases seems to sum up the ancient philosophy that Joe Saenz teaches and embodies: "Guzuhoo dal." Pronounced ...

[tired of lies]

That is a lovely article, yet the subject is in his mid-fifties, not forties, the subject of it only cares about tourism, catering to European clientele, he talks good Apache ideals yet does not live them.
Apaches put their families first , they keep their young children close to them, they do not abandon them for random women they meet online, they do not lie about having a young son and another on the way!
It is sad that the charming outside appearance of the subject of that article hides the hollow core
of a man who has no heart or soul when it comes to his own son and the lies he has spread and damage done against the ones closest to him, guess talking the talk is all that matters.......

[NMN]

Is he really a Native American Indian though? Appearance's are deceiving!

[Jodie]

tired of lies wrote:

That is a lovely article, yet the subject is in his mid-fifties, not forties, the subject of it only cares about tourism, catering to European clientele, he talks good Apache ideals yet does not live them.
Apaches put their families first , they keep their young children close to them, they do not abandon them for random women they meet online, they do not lie about having a young son and another on the way!
It is sad that the charming outside appearance of the subject of that article hides the hollow core
of a man who has no heart or soul when it comes to his own son and the lies he has spread and damage done against the ones closest to him, guess talking the talk is all that matters.......

Dear "Seattle",
You sound like a bitter person, like someone who was involved with this Apache man. Obviously, for one reason or another, the relationship did not work out. Surely, by the time your first child was born, you would have known about his "having no heart or soul", that he is a "hollow core of a man" and about the "random women" he meets online. So, why did you allow yourself to become pregnant AGAIN if he IS such a person? You have control over that, it's called birth control.
Everyone is entitled to live his or her own life as they choose, but maybe next time you may be tempted by lust and his "charming outside appearance", keep your jeans zipped up and concentrate on raising your child (children) to the best of your ability without doing damage to them by "bad-mouthing" the Father. No matter what he may have done to you, or you to him, your children deserve and NEED to hear good and positive things about their Father. Not doing so will cause permanent emotional and mental damage to them.
I wish you all the best and hope you get over your bitterness and get on with your life in a peaceful, tranquil manner.

[berriepie77]

Jodie wrote:

<quoted text>
Dear "Seattle",
You sound like a bitter person, like someone who was involved with this Apache man. Obviously, for one reason or another, the relationship did not work out. Surely, by the time your first child was born, you would have known about his "having no heart or soul", that he is a "hollow core of a man" and about the "random women" he meets online. So, why did you allow yourself to become pregnant AGAIN if he IS such a person? You have control over that, it's called birth control.
Everyone is entitled to live his or her own life as they choose, but maybe next time you may be tempted by lust and his "charming outside appearance", keep your jeans zipped up and concentrate on raising your child (children) to the best of your ability without doing damage to them by "bad-mouthing" the Father. No matter what he may have done to you, or you to him, your children deserve and NEED to hear good and positive things about their Father. Not doing so will cause permanent emotional and mental damage to them.
I wish you all the best and hope you get over your bitterness and get on with your life in a peaceful, tranquil manner.

Hello, I am adding my two cents here people,

FIRST, the girl who is upset with the father of her babies, HI! I KNOW YOU,I met you and baby year ago, you know! please contact me! I know it has been a hard road sister, the man or should I say DOG in question is not worth the time, it only makes you look "bitter" as "JODIE" said.
JUST A SECOND THOUGH, HELLO, "JODIE" You have no clue, this man is a dog, you judge "TIRED OF LIES" and can tell you do not know that man even if yous thinks you do! LOL!! You are putting more blame on victims of abuse, I KNOW it is you "SEATTLE" I met you and your baby you were at a shelter for women who suffered domestic violence in Silver and I also know that if you were REALLY a "BITTER" woman, you would have told the sick sh*t this man did to you and other girls he used to teach, I know his history and so do a lot of people here. You get strong chica, these comments on the web only leave you open for more abuse. PLEEEESE call us.

[Esdzanadehe]

This man is a fraud and a wannabee--he talks about Apache cultural ideals--but he does not follow them. He is mba'coyote trickster. Daab'i nasty-evil.

[Jodie]

I was not going to respond again; however, "mud-slinging" or defaming someone(libel or slander) has no place in a public forum. THIS PERSON'S NAME AND LOCATION IS HERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE and nothing like this should have ever been posted. Attempting to destroy someone's character and/or reputation by any means, particularly on a public forum, is not appropriate no matter what the personal reason. It is also an illegal, punishable-by-law offense.

It takes two to tango, but normally only one to make or break a "relationship". Move on, get a life and take care of your kids (and mind your own business). This is plain old garbage, girls, instigated by a scorned lover who has someone encouraging her bad behavior and egging her on. May I suggest that you two use the telephone or private e-mails to air your complaints and hostilities regarding this person? and cease with the defamation, libel and/or slander? This is hurtful stuff in many ways. You need to be big girls (mature?)and stop with this.

It is my opinion that the subject of this conversation has moved forward, is doing his best to earn an honest living and to be a good Father.

I have no personal relationship with the subject of this slander but do have personal knowledge of him through business. He is a gentleman, kind and considerate, a darned fine rider/horseman, teacher, trail guide and cook. He knows his business and he knows it very well...I trust him completely with my safety and well being while riding and camping out in the wilderness. I will continue to go on his outings and will have a great time in spite of what a scorned woman and another nasty person says. I do not believe one bad word about him - many others don't either - he has many loyal friends and I hope he considers me one of them. Period, end of story.

[END OF CONVERSATION]

Ladies, ladies, please, first, must say slander is when it is untrue, when it is true it's called the cold hard facts, not slander, not libel, our family knows some truly bad things about your "good friend" you do not know, and if one was truly "bitter, scorned" and "nasty" as you put those words on my sister, hey, hey, they would be public info here, well, I do not see them on this site so please refrain from maliciously attacking someone you really do not know, my nephew is down there with him right at this moment, because my sister believes everyone is good when it comes to their own flesh and blood children, we all pray that is true. This is a family affair and it need not be posted, please do not insult any of us by pretending to know the score
your comments that "This is plain old garbage, girls, instigated by a scorned lover"
Please whoever you are "Jodie" do not attack one you do not know, apparently you have a superficial relationship with the subject of this conversation, and you think you know enough to attack someone label them "bitter" and "scorned", sorry, the lady you attacked is not scorned, she left him truth be known, she is part of my family and I know the facts, you do not.
Quite painfully clear you also do not know the subject, and not to get racial, yet I'm betting you are a white woman, am I correct?,
Our culture is based on putting our children first, respecting our mothers, sisters, wives, daughters , you know the women in our lives, the reason we all are here. Please lady, take your own advice: "mind your own business", you haven't a clue. To attack, judge and declare, where yes, it is not the right format to air personal issues, you are one big ol' hypocrite for your personal attacks, shallow, ignorant perception that since someone is "nice" that makes them good, most sociopaths are "charming" and very "nice" and have deluded gullible people who are tricked (like coyote that rascal enjoys doing)
For you to attack the victims that wish they never had met the person in question is mean spirited and cruel, how can you judge? Take your own advice ma'am.
Let us lay it to rest , it is best for everyone concerned, thanks.

[Jodie]

Being of a certain race has nothing to do with good manners and keeping private, family matters private. This is not private or in good taste no matter what one's race may be. I hope everyone can "lay it to rest" - this should have never been awakened publicly in the first place. God bless your family and everyone involved in the saga. May you find peaceful silence during the healing process.

[Standing still]

Somebody should have mentioned the two charges of rape that were levied on Saenz, one in Alaska, that had him extradited, and one in New Mexico. Both were postponed because the parents did not allow the 13 years old to testify.

Then somebody should have mentioned that the shelter in Silver City, NM had to call the police when Saenz broke the restriction order and entered their property in 2008.

The somebody should have mentioned his insatiable sexual predatory habit- usually about 5women think they are his only "love"; all at the same time.

Then somebody should have mentioned the money missing from the now non existent Chiricahua Alliance where he was a treasurer.

Then his unpaid credit card debts.

Then maybe the fact that while his parents came from Mexico they were not Apache in Mexico and Saez became one when bald eagle feathers were found in his trailer- after it was searched in connection with the rape of an under aged girl who he taught- he was fired.

Chiricahua Apache do not use bald eagle feathers in their ceremonies at all. There was no religious reason for Saez to posses any at all. He did not know that.

Apache do not have powwows either. he does not know that either.

Chiricahua never wear any feathers. He does not know that either.

They respect women who are guardian of the spiritual world. He does not know that either.

He is not a Chiricahua Apache.