Michael Ruse: A Darwinian Can Be a Christian, Too

Jun 24, 2010 Full story: The Huffington Post 47

The science-religion front is the site of ongoing conflict. On the one side are the militant atheists like Oxford-based biologist Richard Dawkins , who want simply to remove religion from the face of the earth.

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Ted on diff machine

Montgomery, AL

#1 Jun 25, 2010
I agree with Michael Ruse on some things and disagree on others. I think he implies that conflict between science and religion is inevitable, or at least that is how I read his articles. I don’t completely agree with him, if that is his position going in. I don’t think that conflict is inevitable, as long as the dividing lines between the two are understood.

Here is how I see it, religious folks can believe anything they wish – really. But what they should not do is use their religion to explain natural phenomena. Science folks have much the same freedom, but they should not use science to address supernatural phenomena.

I might not be explaining it well, so let me provide a couple of examples. How about one of my favorite targets of opportunity, kennie Ham and his abortion (aka the Creation ‘Museum’). kennie can believe whatever the hell he wants, but he twists and turns his beliefs until he can rationalize (and lie) and use his beliefs in explaining natural phenomena. That is what makes him ... well if I were a politically correct kind of guy I might call him a little off-kilter, but since I am not – in my opinion he’s bughouse nuts! Little kennie has re-written the Bible at his little side-show attraction. He makes claims that the Bible DOES NOT support and he tells people the Bible is Literally true. For example the Earth is 6000 years old ..there is nothing in the Bible that says that ... he ‘interprets’. Cain’s wife is his sister, yet the Bible says she came from the Land of Nod. Dinosaurs were on the Ark, ye the Bible doesn’t mention them. I think if there were meat-eating dinosaurs in the neighborhood the Bible might mention that. In other words he has twisted up his religion to the breaking point in order to let it ‘explain’ natural phenomena like the age of the earth, geographic diversity, and the lack of evidence of the global flood. Oh he uses cute phrases like “we just get different results from the same evidence”, but that is all smoke and mirrors to make the world around him comply with his screwed-up version of a religion.

One the other side of the coin is Richard Dawkins. Now his science is well done, but I think he steps out from under his science hat when he addresses the issue of religion. He’s fine when he addresses issues like kennie ham’s attempts to undermine science – but when he uses it like a stick to beat up religion – in other words addresses the possibility of supernatural phenomena – he is beating a horse long since turned to glue. Science cannot and does not address the supernatural. It is ill equipped to do so. All it can do is address natural phenomena. Hmm maybe I am explaining it poorly. I am not saying supernatural phenomena actually exists, all I am saying is that science cannot and is ill-equipped to address it.

The conflict between science and religion is emotional and I am not sure can be won and I am also not sure it’s one worth fighting – at least not until one tries to step over the natural-supernatural line. As long a theists don’t try and paint a God face on natural activities and as long as scientists don’t try and put a lab coat on something unexplainable -- if there is such a thing, they can co-exist just fine – even in the same person. Which is why I think I do agree with Michael Ruse on many things.
Born to run

United States

#2 Jun 25, 2010
Well at least you have acknowledged that this is a very emotional issue to many people. A fair and permissive attitude toward those whose beliefs differ from ones own means that you are free from bigotry.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#3 Jun 25, 2010
Born to run wrote:
Well at least you have acknowledged that this is a very emotional issue to many people. A fair and permissive attitude toward those whose beliefs differ from ones own means that you are free from bigotry.
At what point does disdain for stupidity become bigotry? I met up with some dipstick in another forum who denies that he is a mammal.
Born to run

United States

#4 Jun 25, 2010
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
At what point does disdain for stupidity become bigotry? I met up with some dipstick in another forum who denies that he is a mammal.
If you treat someone with contempt and dispise and scorn them because you are intolerant of their creed, belief, or opinion then you make yourself look prejudice.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#5 Jun 25, 2010
Born to run wrote:
<quoted text>If you treat someone with contempt and dispise and scorn them because you are intolerant of their creed, belief, or opinion then you make yourself look prejudice.
I will reserve the disdain and scorn for those that earn it.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#6 Jun 26, 2010
Born to run wrote:
If you treat someone with contempt and dispise and scorn them because you are intolerant of their creed, belief, or opinion then you make yourself look prejudice.
Is it "intolerant" when you point out to someone that their "creed, belief, or opinion" lacks a rational basis?
Born to run

United States

#7 Jun 26, 2010
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it "intolerant" when you point out to someone that their "creed, belief, or opinion" lacks a rational basis?
If you insist with a loud and continued outcry and vehemently express your opinion that this certain person or religion or group of people are completely irrational and you are prejudice in your actions, then you appear to be bigoted.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#8 Jun 26, 2010
I asked: "Is it 'intolerant' when you point out to someone that their 'creed, belief, or opinion' lacks a rational basis?"
Born to run wrote:
<quoted text>If you insist with a loud and continued outcry and vehemently express your opinion that this certain person or religion or group of people are completely irrational and you are prejudice in your actions, then you appear to be bigoted.
That's not the question that I asked you. Please answer the question that I asked.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#9 Jun 26, 2010
Born to run wrote:
<quoted text>If you insist with a loud and continued outcry and vehemently express your opinion that this certain person or religion or group of people are completely irrational and you are prejudice in your actions, then you appear to be bigoted.
What about anal-fixated gay bashers?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#10 Jun 26, 2010
Born to run wrote:
<quoted text>If you insist with a loud and continued outcry and vehemently express your opinion that this certain person or religion or group of people are completely irrational and you are prejudice in your actions, then you appear to be bigoted.
Yet if this certain person is wrong about something.....they're still wrong. 2 + 2 NEVER = 7 no matter what this person's opinion is.

Facts will always be facts, and are not open to opinion.
Human beings are mammals, and the individual insisting otherwise is ignorant.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#11 Jun 26, 2010
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet if this certain person is wrong about something.....they're still wrong. 2 + 2 NEVER = 7 no matter what this person's opinion is.
Facts will always be facts, and are not open to opinion.
Human beings are mammals, and the individual insisting otherwise is ignorant.
As he also busies himself with profanity and condemning people to hell, no amount of ridicule rises to bigotry.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#12 Jun 26, 2010
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
As he also busies himself with profanity and condemning people to hell, no amount of ridicule rises to bigotry.
Sounds like a peach of a guy.

Do I know him?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#13 Jun 26, 2010
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like a peach of a guy.
Do I know him?
If it gets slow here I sometimes go to the Christian forum. Mostly they quote scripture back and forth trying to prove their the better Christian.

"All right. You dumb ass jerks want to take the gloves off? I never said the lake of fire was in the grave you stupid piece of shit. I said the grave, or hell would be cast into IT. Get it now dork? Or will you try to twist it around again. You are one stupid mouth breathing asshole. And you want to call them empty threats? I really don't give a shit. I'm only telling you conceited selfworshiping pricks what will happen. I don't care. You want to burn? Then burn baby burn. That's not a threat from me so stick it up your ass." - Charleston, WV
Born to run

United States

#14 Jun 26, 2010
Drew Smith wrote:
I asked: "Is it 'intolerant' when you point out to someone that their 'creed, belief, or opinion' lacks a rational basis?"
<quoted text>
That's not the question that I asked you. Please answer the question that I asked.
I am trying to answer your question. You have a belief based on your seeing the facts as you see them, and you have every right to express what you think the facts are, but just because you and many other so learned people say that these observations are true, this doesn't give you or all of them the right to hit everyone else over the head with them. Let people be their own judges as to what is true and what isn't. Present your side and gracefully leave it there.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#15 Jun 26, 2010
I asked: "Is it 'intolerant' when you point out to someone that their 'creed, belief, or opinion' lacks a rational basis?"

That's not the question that I asked you. Please answer the question that I asked.
Born to run wrote:
I am trying to answer your question. You have a belief based on your seeing the facts as you see them, and you have every right to express what you think the facts are, but just because you and many other so learned people say that these observations are true, this doesn't give you or all of them the right to hit everyone else over the head with them. Let people be their own judges as to what is true and what isn't. Present your side and gracefully leave it there.
Was that a "yes" or a "no"?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#16 Jun 26, 2010
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
If it gets slow here I sometimes go to the Christian forum. Mostly they quote scripture back and forth trying to prove their the better Christian.

"All right. You dumb ass jerks want to take the gloves off? " - Charleston, WV <edited for PG rating>
Wow.

And how much you want to bet he teaches Sunday School and is an Elder in his church?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#17 Jun 26, 2010
Born to run wrote:
<quoted text>I am trying to answer your question. You have a belief based on your seeing the facts as you see them, and you have every right to express what you think the facts are, but just because you and many other so learned people say that these observations are true, this doesn't give you or all of them the right to hit everyone else over the head with them. Let people be their own judges as to what is true and what isn't. Present your side and gracefully leave it there.
We are really pretty careful not to attack peoples' faith. However, their beliefs may lead them to conclude that science equals atheism and/or Genesis equals fact. At this point they open themselves up to a mind-numbing clobbering with evidence. One thing that mitigates the pain is the fact that the evangelicals don't listen.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#18 Jun 26, 2010
Drew Smith wrote:
....
Was that a "yes" or a "no"?
Sounded like "I'm not listening" to me.

Let's get to the bottom of this.

Hey, Btr, do you believe the bible is the inerrant word of God?
Born to run

United States

#19 Jun 26, 2010
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounded like "I'm not listening" to me.
Let's get to the bottom of this.
Hey, Btr, do you believe the bible is the inerrant word of God?
I believe the Bible was written by inspirationand belief that what was given came from the infusion of divine influence. I do not have enough insight as yet to apprehend whether every word in any given version is inerrant.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#20 Jun 26, 2010
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow.
And how much you want to bet he teaches Sunday School and is an Elder in his church?
"<edited for PG rating>" - very decent of you

<quoted for some measure of plausible deniability>

Let's hope not. This guy is an exception but by no means unique. Even Btr must admit that this degree of Christ-inspired hatred is deserving of much more than simple ridicule.

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