School Policy vs. Religious Beliefs? Court to Decide

Oct 6, 2011 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Fox News

In July, a federal judge dismissed the lawsuit of Julea Ward, seen here, against Eastern Michigan University after the school successfully contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association's code of ethics, which forbids counselors from discrimination in clinical practice.

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“WOOF !”

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#21
Oct 6, 2011
 
Josh in New Orleans wrote:
Since she cannot provide relationship counciling to gays and lesbians, then the fact of the matter is that she did not meet all the requirements of her job. Simple as that. This is an open and shut case.
I agree.

“LGBT Americans, We're ”

Since: Jun 09

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#22
Oct 6, 2011
 

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If she wants to implement her religious beliefs as part of her professional counseling activities, she should go work for Bachmann & Ass's - or a similar group.
Rainbow Kid

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#23
Oct 7, 2011
 
Here is a federal case in Georgia decided a month later that gives us insight into the outcome of this case
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/08/23...
Rainbow Kid

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#24
Oct 7, 2011
 

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DNF wrote:
I have to disagree with many here. She asked to be able to refer clients to other counselors. The school refused. The school then insisted she take a remediation program to change her beliefs toward homosexuality.
If she just refers clients to counselors; she doesn't need a college degree or professional credentials
.
She could run a referral service out of the church brainwashing office
.
If she's caught referring people to Exodus; feed her to the lions
http://www.gaychristian101.com/ex-gay.html

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#25
Oct 7, 2011
 
Jonah1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe anyone said that. I don't remember anywhere where he didn't have the option to choose someone else if he didn't like her services.
Let me try it with another example. If a person comes to the pharmacy and a religious wing nut pharmacist says he can't prescribe fertility drugs because the person is a lesbian and he objects to assisting lesbians, then the pharmacist is not fulfilling the requirements of his job. If, however, the lesbian realizes that the pharmacy across the street is cheaper, and takes her business there instead, there is no religious discrimination taking place.
<quoted text>
wrong. The pharmacist is still discriminating based on religion. The fact that services are available elsewhere doesn't change that. I do feel this counselor was also discriminating based on religion.
Jonah1 wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Because it's not "therapy", it's religious indoctrination.
2) Places like Exodus should be free to operate, provided they be honest in stating that they don't create "ex-gays", and they aren't performing legitimate therapy. The individuals attending these don't come out any "less gay" than when they went in. Exodus deals purely with behavior. If they weren't deceptive about this, I don't think as many gays would object to them so much. Places like EI lie about their successes, create their own vernacular in order to promote their agenda in a more positive light, and promote their agenda through repetitious indoctrination to the idea that gay people should find their orientation "unwanted". They foster, promote, and encourage the very negativity that they then pretend to address.
I somewhat agree. However, in the view of "religious based counseling", Exodus does believe, and has the right to claim, it provides "legitimate counseling". Let's be honest here, their clients come to them BECAUSE the clients or their families WANT religious based counseling.
Jonah1 wrote:
<quoted text>I think it's proven that these places are never helpful and indeed can be very harmful. But if an individual comes to the conclusion on their own that they wish to interpret the bible in a way that doesn't reconcile with their sexual orientation, it is their free right to pursue whatever religious course they wish.
But people coming to Exodus International are looking for religious assistance, not therapy.
<quoted text>
If we allow here to place her religious bigotry over the well being of the patient, can a therapist that is a KKK member be free to tell Jewish, black and Catholic potential patients that he can't treat them because he "doesn't agree with them"?
<quoted text>
Why should a person requesting mental therapy be subjected to even one comment that would allow the therapist's feelings of negativity to even remotely enter into the potential patient's mindset? She has NO REASON whatsoever to tell that patient her belief's. That's not her job, and that's not why he's there.
And I don't disagree with most of what you say. My point is that at least THIS counselor was trying to be honest from the beginning and IMO DID attempt to serve the best interests of the client by trying to refer them to a therapist the client could feel more comfortable with.

By demonizing this woman I don't think we help the situation. I think the University was wrong in insisting she take "remediation". IMO they simply should have given her a choice. Obey the rules she agreed to or resign voluntarily.

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#26
Oct 7, 2011
 
Josh in New Orleans wrote:
Since she cannot provide relationship counseling to gays and lesbians, then the fact of the matter is that she did not meet all the requirements of her job. Simple as that. This is an open and shut case.
Good point.

“Equality for ALL”

Since: Jul 10

Massachusetts

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#27
Oct 7, 2011
 

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The article doesn't say what type of degree she was studying for (Masters, PhD) but this wasn't Psych101. Her religious beliefs are actually irrelevant. The school says to receive a Masters degree, candidates must demonstrate an understanding of A, B, C,...etc. She is seeking an exemption from one of those parameters. Without an understanding of A, B, C,...etc she has made herself ineligible for the degree. Ergo, the school dropped her from the program.

DNF

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#28
Oct 7, 2011
 
Rainbow Kid wrote:
Here is a federal case in Georgia decided a month later that gives us insight into the outcome of this case
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/08/23...
Here is the main difference between these two cases:
"In classroom discussions and papers, Keeton (according to the judge's ruling) stated that she condemned homosexuality, said that sexual orientation was a matter of personal choice, and told fellow students that -- if given the opportunity to counsel gay people -- she would recommend "conversion therapy" in which gay people are counseled to become straight.(There is a scholarly consensus among psychology experts that such therapy doesn't work and can harm those who undergo it.)"

Julea Ward did not try to recommend "conversion therapy". Did she try to wiggle out of following the rules? Yes I think she did.

My whole point was only to acknowledge that she attempted to deal with her personal religious views and her clients best interest in what I see as a reasonable solution.

To frame it in terms found in the Americans with Disabilities Act:
1) she offered reasonable accommodations
2) She gave the client the right to refuse her services.

IMO the "guidelines" of the American Counseling Association's code of ethics are out of step with reality and Federal Law.

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#29
Oct 7, 2011
 
Is it ethical for a code of ethics to insist members disregard their own personal ethics?

DNF

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#30
Oct 7, 2011
 
IMO this is very similar to rules imposed under DADTDP. IMO I'm seeing fellow gays and lesbians trying to impose their own version of DADTDP. And as a gay man, I object to that

The whole "my way or the highway" attitude.

And I don't care if my views are politically unpopular in this case.

I'm seeing gays and lesbians acting as if everyone should believe as they believe

“Crusading Fundies r hilarious!”

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#31
Oct 7, 2011
 

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DNF wrote:
<quoted text>wrong. The pharmacist is still discriminating based on religion. The fact that services are available elsewhere doesn't change that. I do feel this counselor was also discriminating based on religion.<quoted text>
I completely agree. I guess I just didn't state myself well enough. The availability of services elsewhere was in reference to the patient, not the pharmacist.
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>
I somewhat agree. However, in the view of "religious based counseling", Exodus does believe, and has the right to claim, it provides "legitimate counseling". Let's be honest here, their clients come to them BECAUSE the clients or their families WANT religious based counseling.
I disagree. Exodus does not employ licensed therapists. They "call" it therapy, but it is nothing more than religious mumbo jumbo. From their own website...."Exodus International is not a clinical facility but does affiliate, within the Exodus Professional Counselor Network, with licensed therapists. A minority of these professionals may ascribe to some aspects of Reparative Therapy." In other words, licensed therapists have established a way to provide "therapy" while at the same time being able to completely distance themselves from being part of Exodus International.

And their "clients" are people that have fallen on hard times, or have experienced personal pain, and Exodus International goes out of their way to convince the "clients" that ALL of their woes and ills and doubts are completely resultant upon their homosexuality. Let's be even MORE honest here, their "clients" come to them because they have convinced their "clients" that they can change them. The families aren't as concerned about "counselling" as they are concerned about making their gay children straight. Which of course NEVER happens. Exodus purposefully and deceitfully "redefines" homosexuality so that they can pretend it is a behavior. Which it isn't.
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>
And I don't disagree with most of what you say. My point is that at least THIS counselor was trying to be honest from the beginning and IMO DID attempt to serve the best interests of the client by trying to refer them to a therapist the client could feel more comfortable with.
I definately think we both agree in the end that it was best this patient not have this therapist! But I disagree with you here again. In the case of this therapist, I don't for one minute believe she referred the patient so that the client could feel more comfortable, I think she referred the client so SHE could feel more comfortable.
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>
By demonizing this woman I don't think we help the situation. I think the University was wrong in insisting she take "remediation". IMO they simply should have given her a choice. Obey the rules she agreed to or resign voluntarily.
Insisting she take remediation didn't prevent her from resigning voluntarily. If that's what she wanted to do, she could have. She was not "forced" to remediate and more than the patient was "forced" to utilize her.

Remediation is nothing more than a correction. And she needed to be corrected on the appropriate way of counscelling gay people. She was absolutely free to pray for their souls according to your religious beliefs when she got home. Her patient however, was not coming to see her about his soul, he was coming to see her about his relationship.

“Crusading Fundies r hilarious!”

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#32
Oct 7, 2011
 

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DNF wrote:
Is it ethical for a code of ethics to insist members disregard their own personal ethics?
That depends on whether one wished to qualify bigotry as ethical.

If we were talking about therapist who was a KKK member with her "personal ethics", would you be asking the same question?

Sorry, but i just don't ascribe to the whole, "I'm still a good person if I only discriminate in in matters where my bible supports my discrimination.

“Crusading Fundies r hilarious!”

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#33
Oct 7, 2011
 

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DNF wrote:
I'm seeing gays and lesbians acting as if everyone should believe as they believe
This has nothing to do with beliefs. The therapist is free to "believe" whatever she wants. Her beliefs are irrelevant to this patient's therapy. What if it was her belief that god decreed the seperation of the races? What if it was her belief that god decreed that woman be subservient to men? What if is was her belief that she had been abducted by aliens 37 times in the last week? Her beliefs should have no bearing in this. This isn't about beliefs, its about pretending that one's religion gives them the right to discriminate, and call it something less harsh.

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