William and Mary students elect transgender homecoming queen

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Students at the College of William and Mary have elected a transgender homecoming queen. Full Story
Moderate Clam

United States

#1 Oct 25, 2009
ZeZir? Isn't that the pan flute guy?
carpe nocturnum

Miami, FL

#2 Oct 25, 2009
Moderate Clam wrote:
ZeZir? Isn't that the pan flute guy?
LOL! Well, they both blow!
Rod S

Miami, FL

#3 Oct 25, 2009
W&M has become a nest of loons. With all the real problems in the world they focus on removing the cross from their chapel, sex "artist" shows and other useless trivia. America's second oldest university has become its longest running joke. Send your dollars elsewhere.
Andie

Williamsburg, VA

#4 Oct 25, 2009
Rod S wrote:
W&M has become a nest of loons. With all the real problems in the world they focus on removing the cross from their chapel, sex "artist" shows and other useless trivia. America's second oldest university has become its longest running joke. Send your dollars elsewhere.
If you bothered to know anything about our school, you would know that the people here do a lot of good work in the community and beyond. Voting for Jessee for homecoming queen didn't stop a single person from also working on other issues.

Not to mention, you don't even know anything about what ze or any of hir friends do, so don't talk about what people are or are not focusing on.
Rod S

Miami, FL

#5 Oct 25, 2009
Andie wrote:
<quoted text>
If you bothered to know anything about our school, you would know that the people here do a lot of good work in the community and beyond. Voting for Jessee for homecoming queen didn't stop a single person from also working on other issues.
Not to mention, you don't even know anything about what ze or any of hir friends do, so don't talk about what people are or are not focusing on.
"good work in the community" - as in "community organizers"? Code for: future bureaucrats in the coming socialist debacle. Send your dollars to a serious university producing something other than more mind-numbed, kool-aid drinking liberals. As for poor Jessee, ze is being used as a tool for threatening the alumni and the tax payers of Virginia. Her issues (whose importance I do not deny)could have been showcased in many other forums. Homecoming Queen was chosen to give the aforementioned folks a good hard slap in the face. As in the Wren cross it's another trumped up issue. The point in that case was never separation of church and state.(Nobody was offended by a cross in a chapel.) The whole thing was political correctness flexing its muscles, goose-stepping around campus and letting everyone know there's a new sheriff in town. Conservatives, Republicans, religious folks and even open-minded liberals beware: there's only ONE party line and you'd better tow it or else.
Andie

Williamsburg, VA

#6 Oct 25, 2009
Rod S wrote:
<quoted text>
"good work in the community" - as in "community organizers"? Code for: future bureaucrats in the coming socialist debacle. Send your dollars to a serious university producing something other than more mind-numbed, kool-aid drinking liberals. As for poor Jessee, ze is being used as a tool for threatening the alumni and the tax payers of Virginia. Her issues (whose importance I do not deny)could have been showcased in many other forums. Homecoming Queen was chosen to give the aforementioned folks a good hard slap in the face. As in the Wren cross it's another trumped up issue. The point in that case was never separation of church and state.(Nobody was offended by a cross in a chapel.) The whole thing was political correctness flexing its muscles, goose-stepping around campus and letting everyone know there's a new sheriff in town. Conservatives, Republicans, religious folks and even open-minded liberals beware: there's only ONE party line and you'd better tow it or else.
"Good work in the community?" as in "working with low income children" and "volunteering at hospitals", etc, actually. But keep thinking that everything is a socialist conspiracy.

Way to take Jessee's agency away from hir. Jessee isn't a "poor" anything for what happened. Ze's pretty happy about it, as a matter of fact. Ze wasn't a tool, ze gave permission to be nominated. I'm not sure how you think tax payers or alums are supposed to be threatened by Jessee, either. It is more the opposite, the school is threatened by the tax payers and alums.

I don't know why you feel so threatened. Jessee may have won partly as a challenge to traditional ways of thinking and being, but that doesn't mean anyone needs to "beware". There also isn't any "or else" to disagreeing, other than that people will let you know when you're being bigoted or mean and will engage in discussion, debate, and arguments with you.
"Tow the party line, or else!...Someone might disagree with you!"
Pretty scary, I know.
peter

Miami, FL

#7 Oct 25, 2009
Andie wrote:
<quoted text>
"Good work in the community?" as in "working with low income children" and "volunteering at hospitals", etc, actually. But keep thinking that everything is a socialist conspiracy.
Way to take Jessee's agency away from hir. Jessee isn't a "poor" anything for what happened. Ze's pretty happy about it, as a matter of fact. Ze wasn't a tool, ze gave permission to be nominated. I'm not sure how you think tax payers or alums are supposed to be threatened by Jessee, either. It is more the opposite, the school is threatened by the tax payers and alums.
I don't know why you feel so threatened. Jessee may have won partly as a challenge to traditional ways of thinking and being, but that doesn't mean anyone needs to "beware". There also isn't any "or else" to disagreeing, other than that people will let you know when you're being bigoted or mean and will engage in discussion, debate, and arguments with you.
"Tow the party line, or else!...Someone might disagree with you!"
Pretty scary, I know.
"bigoted and mean" - uh oh - time to call the thought police - we've got some conservatives running speaking freely. When liberals start using their buzzwords, censorship can't be far behind (BRS anyone?). I suppose the Christians on campus with their nasty cross had to be stopped before its dangerous "Jesus rays" contaminated the unwary? If the taxpayers and alums don't feel like paying for your nonsense here's an idea: pay for it yourselves. No more "threat" from them, right? Here's what you REALLY mean: shut the hell up, take our insults, but keep sending money. Your definition of a threat is the refusal to pay for your foolishness. Freedom of speech does not mean somebody else is obligated to provide you with a campus. Nor are they required to remain silent, lest you insult them further by claiming they're not as pure at heart as yourselves.

Let's not forget the liberal, atheist philosophy professors who dared oppose the cross removal. The Chairperson of the department (who refused to sign the W&M loyalty oath) was demoted while two other professors were humiliated in public. The new chairperson was the author of that pro-Nichol petition. Talk about your blatant political quid pro quo. I'd love to hear your explanation for that disgusting fiasco. W&M is political correctness gone nuts. Tow the line or we'll trash your cross. Sign the loyalty petition our you lose your job. Keep silent or you'll face our special kind of academic justice. Join us in trashing long-standing traditions for political gain or you'll be branded as "bigoted and mean".

As for poor Jassee, I'm sure hir role was innocent enough. Being used relects poorly on the users, not on the one being used. I have no objection to a panel or discussion on transgender issues. But the whole point of the little exercise you're engaged in is to slap people hard in the face, then step back ready to accuse them of bigotry and hatred if they get upset.

Like the SWAS, it's just another attempt to piss people off to make yourselves feel superior. While claiming to occupy the moral high ground, what you REALLY enjoy is the slapping and the insults. As with Gene Nichol and his phony "offended persons", his real passion was stomping the crap out of the Christians. He could have cared less about separation of church and state. The cross didn't threaten it in the least. You'd have to burn the Wren chapel to the ground to get rid of all evidence of its Christian heritage.
Andie

Williamsburg, VA

#8 Oct 26, 2009
peter wrote:
<quoted text>
As for poor Jassee, I'm sure hir role was innocent enough. Being used relects poorly on the users, not on the one being used. I have no objection to a panel or discussion on transgender issues. But the whole point of the little exercise you're engaged in is to slap people hard in the face, then step back ready to accuse them of bigotry and hatred if they get upset.
Most of what you said was rambling about non-relevant stuff regarding the Wren Cross, which I don't know enough about to comment on. Stick to the subject at hand, thanks.

Please stop it with the "poor Jessee" stuff. Ze was NOT "used". I know it is a common conservative tactic to take away agency from people, but cut it out.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps Jessee -wants- to be Homecoming Queen and that ze was aware of the nomination?

Accusations of hatred and bigotry? If the shoe fits...Have you looked at some of the comments out there?

Please don't presume to know why we brought SWAS or elected Jessee as HQ. You don't know me and you don't know anyone else involved in it. One reason I voted for Jessee is that ze is an amazing person and has done a lot of work around campus. Ze is heavily involved in several organizations, is working in SA, and is a great friend. And yeah, another reason is to challenge traditional expectations. Only by challenging them, can we change them. Making people aware of difference and giving difference a face is a way to start on a dialogue to acceptance.

I suppose sometimes change hurts as much as a slap, and I'm sorry if this hurt like I physically slapped you, but I doubt it hurt as much as people who are assaulted for being gender nonconforming get hurt. I'm sure you'll be fine.
peter

Miami, FL

#9 Oct 26, 2009
You really enjoy the slapping, don't you? And calling people bigots and hateful rolls right off your tongue like you say it every day. "Good morning. How's it going? You're bigoted and hateful by the way, whereas I'm pure as the driven snow, cause I'm PC and you're not - ha ha. Have a nice day!" Pomposity is not a trait that makes people inclined to listen to what you have to say. "Please don't presume to know...blah blah blah." How the hell do YOU know who or what I do or do not know?

Quoting you: "If you bothered to know anything about our school...". Then later: "...regarding the Wren Cross, which I don't know enough about to comment on". Hello?!? So YOU are the only one qualified to comment on W&M but you also know nothing about an issue which nearly tore the campus apart? Curious, to say the least.

The connection between the cross and the Queen: political correctness. You've heard of that haven't you? Or is it now so ingrained at W&M that PC seems like the air you breathe?

Have you either heard the expression "you get more flies with honey than with vinegar"? If you REALLY wanted to help the transgendered, you'd present them in a more serious venue. What you've done is for shock value and has more the appearance of a carnival side-show than a serious attempt to connect. Ze might as well be the bearded lady.

Personally, I think ze was born that way and there's no fault or sin attached. God, who created zir, loves zir as much as any of Hiz creatures. But I doubt you'll convince anyone with your slapping, insults and pretentiousness. All they see is aggression, haughtiness and pumped up ego. You're almost as bad as those who are convinced ze chose to be as ze is. Where's the love? Where's the attemt to make your case? The only part of your post that works is when you speak of ze as a person. Yet you prefer to "challenge". You enjoy the fighting and rancor. "Jessee may have won partly as a challenge to traditional ways of thinking and being"...you think? Spitting in someone's face also challenges their traditional way of thinking, as they certainly won't be expecting that sort of non-traditional greeting! But it says more about you than it does about them.

Finally, I am not responsible for "some of the comments out there". Yes, some are way out of line. But you'll not convince them of your cause with with slaps and slurs. Your goal should be winning them over, not antagonizing them. They might see ze as you do if you'd quit preaching so loudly. It's awfully hard to understand someone who's shouting into your face and calling you a bigot because you don't get their point of view. PC is like Naziism - all torch-light parades, banners, slogans and in-your-face aggression. Good luck with that.
Andie

Williamsburg, VA

#10 Oct 26, 2009
peter wrote:
You really enjoy the slapping, don't you? And calling people bigots and hateful rolls right off your tongue like you say it every day. "Good morning. How's it going? You're bigoted and hateful by the way, whereas I'm pure as the driven snow, cause I'm PC and you're not - ha ha. Have a nice day!" Pomposity is not a trait that makes people inclined to listen to what you have to say. "Please don't presume to know...blah blah blah." How the hell do YOU know who or what I do or do not know?
Quoting you: "If you bothered to know anything about our school...". Then later: "...regarding the Wren Cross, which I don't know enough about to comment on". Hello?!? So YOU are the only one qualified to comment on W&M but you also know nothing about an issue which nearly tore the campus apart? Curious, to say the least.
The connection between the cross and the Queen: political correctness. You've heard of that haven't you? Or is it now so ingrained at W&M that PC seems like the air you breathe?
Have you either heard the expression "you get more flies with honey than with vinegar"? If you REALLY wanted to help the transgendered, you'd present them in a more serious venue. What you've done is for shock value and has more the appearance of a carnival side-show than a serious attempt to connect. Ze might as well be the bearded lady.
Personally, I think ze was born that way and there's no fault or sin attached. God, who created zir, loves zir as much as any of Hiz creatures. But I doubt you'll convince anyone with your slapping, insults and pretentiousness. All they see is aggression, haughtiness and pumped up ego. You're almost as bad as those who are convinced ze chose to be as ze is. Where's the love? Where's the attemt to make your case? The only part of your post that works is when you speak of ze as a person. Yet you prefer to "challenge". You enjoy the fighting and rancor. "Jessee may have won partly as a challenge to traditional ways of thinking and being"...you think? Spitting in someone's face also challenges their traditional way of thinking, as they certainly won't be expecting that sort of non-traditional greeting! But it says more about you than it does about them.
Finally, I am not responsible for "some of the comments out there". Yes, some are way out of line. But you'll not convince them of your cause with with slaps and slurs. Your goal should be winning them over, not antagonizing them. They might see ze as you do if you'd quit preaching so loudly. It's awfully hard to understand someone who's shouting into your face and calling you a bigot because you don't get their point of view. PC is like Naziism - all torch-light parades, banners, slogans and in-your-face aggression. Good luck with that.
Electing Jessee to the Homecoming Court doesn't present trans issues from being discussed elsewhere. They are.
The goal -is- to help people understand, but when people say hateful things about topics and people they don't understand or know, those things need to be refuted, lest other people think they are true. Calling out hatred and bigotry is vital to stopping it. If it isn't acknowledged, it can't be challenged. Calling statements what they are brings out the truth about things.

I never said I was perfect, I have plenty of prejudices I need to work through, just like anyone who was brought up in this society.

I'm qualified to comment on this particular issue at William and Mary because I know the people and events involved. When I said "if you knew anything about our campus" I was challenging that poster's implication that people on campus aren't working on "real problems" (from that person's perspective).

The best part about all this is all of the conversation that is going on around these topics, which aren't discussed in large forums as much as they need to be. Discussions got started, and it is a good thing.
peter

Miami, FL

#11 Oct 26, 2009
"Calling out hatred and bigotry is vital to stopping it. If it isn't acknowledged, it can't be challenged."

Ok. Let me give it a try: "Hello, bigoted hateful persons. Let's talk about the errors of your ways. I'm so much better than you that you should appreciate my talking down to you as if you were children. Let's face it, compared to my enlightenment, you ARE but a small child. Kiss my ring please, for I an have the answers for all of humanity."

Nope. It doesn't work. I still think that what you enjoy is being on your high horse slinging the insults. How does that make you better than some ignorant hick calling you names? What's more, what chance in a million do you have that anyone will actually listen to what you're saying? But good luck. You're going to need it.

PS - I tried it surrounded by a bunch of others doing the same thing. In all directions all I could see was high horses and horse's asses, some behind the horse, some in the saddle.

Oh, sorry, did I just insult you? Well, to paraphrase you: Calling out pompousness and know-it-all-ism is vital to stopping it. If it isn't acknowledged, it can't be challenged.- So as much as I'd prefer not to, insulting you was vital to your rehabilition. You like? Make you want to hear more? Didn't think so.
Andie

Williamsburg, VA

#12 Oct 26, 2009
peter wrote:
"Calling out hatred and bigotry is vital to stopping it. If it isn't acknowledged, it can't be challenged."
Ok. Let me give it a try: "Hello, bigoted hateful persons. Let's talk about the errors of your ways. I'm so much better than you that you should appreciate my talking down to you as if you were children. Let's face it, compared to my enlightenment, you ARE but a small child. Kiss my ring please, for I an have the answers for all of humanity."
Nope. It doesn't work. I still think that what you enjoy is being on your high horse slinging the insults. How does that make you better than some ignorant hick calling you names? What's more, what chance in a million do you have that anyone will actually listen to what you're saying? But good luck. You're going to need it.
PS - I tried it surrounded by a bunch of others doing the same thing. In all directions all I could see was high horses and horse's asses, some behind the horse, some in the saddle.
Oh, sorry, did I just insult you? Well, to paraphrase you: Calling out pompousness and know-it-all-ism is vital to stopping it. If it isn't acknowledged, it can't be challenged.- So as much as I'd prefer not to, insulting you was vital to your rehabilition. You like? Make you want to hear more? Didn't think so.
Thanks for calling me out on it. You helped me realize that sometimes I do need to tone down my language.

No one likes to be called out though. Do you have an alternative to it? How are you supposed to engage with people if you don't try to show them what their saying is hurtful and problematic?

You're right, there are gentler ways of doing so, but it still has to be done.
peter

Miami, FL

#13 Oct 26, 2009
I might have been too harsh. I agree that Jessee should be treated with repect and compassion. Hir problem, if I may call it that, is real, not created to gain attention or some flaw in hir character. Why would anyone choose such a hard road?

Frankly, I'm not too keen on Homecoming Queens. It was always just a beauty contest and I'm not sure that was ever appropriate on a college campus. However, it is what it is. There are certainly worse things.

I admit to being at a loss for other venues. As with the SWAS, it's a puzzlement. One certainly sympathizes with the very real plight of sex workers. However, having them strip onstage seems akin to asking an alcholic to demostrate his disease by getting smashed for an audience. This is not a moral condemnation. Stripping can be art, although the purient content tends to make it a somewhat low form.(I'd put it somewhere between Nascar and jello wrestling.) That doesn't make it wrong. However, Joe Sixpack, unfortunately, is more likely to see the whole affair as something he can identify with, but not in a good way: clever college students who've found a neat way to watch strip shows at a bargain rate. I doubt Joe will pay one bit of attention to the plight of sexworkers. In fact, I think he'd have the opposite reaction: "What problem? Hey, they can just go join the sex artist show and perform for the college kids. They're doing ok." He might even begin to think his tendency to go to strip joints or hire prostitues is now approved as "art" performed by "workers".

How does that relate to transgendered folk? Not sure. But you don't want the reaction that there's no problem because the College doesn't seem to take them seriously either. "Yeah, they got one to be Homecoming Queen just to piss off everyone. Like the SWAS, another college kid goof. Then they tried to tell us it was wrong to laugh and make jokes, cause we're bigots. But we're not the ones who put her on display." A wrong reaction, based on what you said about your motives, but if tied in with comments about bigotry and hatefulness, it's a predictable one.

If I was King, both issues would be presented in a more formal setting. A lecture hall with experts in sociology and psychology, for example. But what do I know? Maybe what your doing will not be so bad. But do try to tone down the negative and emphasize the positive.

“Son of Abraham”

Since: Aug 07

Natural Deviant

#14 Oct 26, 2009
peter wrote:
<quoted text>
"bigoted and mean" - uh oh - time to call the thought police - we've got some conservatives running speaking freely. When liberals start using their buzzwords, censorship can't be far behind (BRS anyone?). I suppose the Christians on campus with their nasty cross had to be stopped before its dangerous "Jesus rays" contaminated the unwary? If the taxpayers and alums don't feel like paying for your nonsense here's an idea: pay for it yourselves. No more "threat" from them, right? Here's what you REALLY mean: shut the hell up, take our insults, but keep sending money. Your definition of a threat is the refusal to pay for your foolishness. Freedom of speech does not mean somebody else is obligated to provide you with a campus. Nor are they required to remain silent, lest you insult them further by claiming they're not as pure at heart as yourselves.
Let's not forget the liberal, atheist philosophy professors who dared oppose the cross removal. The Chairperson of the department (who refused to sign the W&M loyalty oath) was demoted while two other professors were humiliated in public. The new chairperson was the author of that pro-Nichol petition. Talk about your blatant political quid pro quo. I'd love to hear your explanation for that disgusting fiasco. W&M is political correctness gone nuts. Tow the line or we'll trash your cross. Sign the loyalty petition our you lose your job. Keep silent or you'll face our special kind of academic justice. Join us in trashing long-standing traditions for political gain or you'll be branded as "bigoted and mean".
As for poor Jassee, I'm sure hir role was innocent enough. Being used relects poorly on the users, not on the one being used. I have no objection to a panel or discussion on transgender issues. But the whole point of the little exercise you're engaged in is to slap people hard in the face, then step back ready to accuse them of bigotry and hatred if they get upset.
Like the SWAS, it's just another attempt to piss people off to make yourselves feel superior. While claiming to occupy the moral high ground, what you REALLY enjoy is the slapping and the insults. As with Gene Nichol and his phony "offended persons", his real passion was stomping the crap out of the Christians. He could have cared less about separation of church and state. The cross didn't threaten it in the least. You'd have to burn the Wren chapel to the ground to get rid of all evidence of its Christian heritage.
Censorship??? You want to talk about censorship? It's conservatives who are literally trying to censor the lives of the LGBT community. And why? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with them. Gay marriage isn't going to affect them, equal rights for gay people aren't going to hamper their lives... It's unreal. Christians are at the forefront of making sure hate is valid and legal. They want the right to discriminate against the LGBT community. You guys are NOTHING like Christ and history will look back at you with the same view it has on all the other crusades the Church has taken on in it's past. The only difference between this one and the others is they can't exactly put us to death but they sure the hell make sure they spew enough venom to the world so others can do it for them.
Wild Wayne

Safety Harbor, FL

#16 Oct 27, 2009
McMike wrote:
<quoted text>
Censorship??? You want to talk about censorship? It's conservatives who are literally trying to censor the lives of the LGBT community. And why? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with them. Gay marriage isn't going to affect them, equal rights for gay people aren't going to hamper their lives... It's unreal. Christians are at the forefront of making sure hate is valid and legal. They want the right to discriminate against the LGBT community. You guys are NOTHING like Christ and history will look back at you with the same view it has on all the other crusades the Church has taken on in it's past. The only difference between this one and the others is they can't exactly put us to death but they sure the hell make sure they spew enough venom to the world so others can do it for them.
You don't sound as if you're being censored. I don't believe Christ would approve of "making sure hate is valid and legal". Nor do I know of any Christian denominations that advocate the murder of LGBT people. If they exist, I'd be for prosecuting their leaders for any resulting violence. You paint with an awfully wide brush. I am open to hear arguments for gay marriage. I doubt if anyone else will listen long to you, however, when you launch into your baseless allegations. What is it you want? To be heard or just to get your jollies slamming Christians?

This month saw more Americans killed in Afghanistan than any other month. Those in the military tend to be conservative and Christian (there are plenty of liberals too). They're fighting against an ideology that would proscribe death for LGBTs. They may not support gay marriage or ending don't ask don't tell. But they're still out there fighting for your freedom and your life. I'd take a step back and look more carefully about how you bandy about your attacks on huge swaths of the population without any attempt to discriminate between those who can or cannot be reached. That is, of course, assuming reaching them is what you want.

Finally, I've heard no defense of what the College did to the three philosophy professors. The Chairperson of the department refused to sign a petition supporting the President during the Wren chapel cross removal. He was demoted due to anonymous complaints (same method used to remove the cross). He was replaced by the author of that petition. Are you seriously suggesting there was NO other professor who could have filled that position? Was the College unaware how absolutely awful this looks? Refuse to tow the line, get fired. Start of petition of support for the powers that be, get a Chair! In what banana republic was this idea cooked up?

Were you aware that the two other disgraced professors had written articles supporting gay rights? That all three are atheist and liberal? Where's the outrage on campus? Apparently, if you don't buy the new program 100%, your career is in jeopardy. What the hell kind of freedom of speech is that? I'd love to hear your explanation.
Andie

Williamsburg, VA

#17 Oct 27, 2009
Wild Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't sound as if you're being censored. I don't believe Christ would approve of "making sure hate is valid and legal". Nor do I know of any Christian denominations that advocate the murder of LGBT people. If they exist, I'd be for prosecuting their leaders for any resulting violence. You paint with an awfully wide brush. I am open to hear arguments for gay marriage. I doubt if anyone else will listen long to you, however, when you launch into your baseless allegations. What is it you want? To be heard or just to get your jollies slamming Christians?
This month saw more Americans killed in Afghanistan than any other month. Those in the military tend to be conservative and Christian (there are plenty of liberals too). They're fighting against an ideology that would proscribe death for LGBTs. They may not support gay marriage or ending don't ask don't tell. But they're still out there fighting for your freedom and your life. I'd take a step back and look more carefully about how you bandy about your attacks on huge swaths of the population without any attempt to discriminate between those who can or cannot be reached. That is, of course, assuming reaching them is what you want.
Finally, I've heard no defense of what the College did to the three philosophy professors. The Chairperson of the department refused to sign a petition supporting the President during the Wren chapel cross removal. He was demoted due to anonymous complaints (same method used to remove the cross). He was replaced by the author of that petition. Are you seriously suggesting there was NO other professor who could have filled that position? Was the College unaware how absolutely awful this looks? Refuse to tow the line, get fired. Start of petition of support for the powers that be, get a Chair! In what banana republic was this idea cooked up?
Were you aware that the two other disgraced professors had written articles supporting gay rights? That all three are atheist and liberal? Where's the outrage on campus? Apparently, if you don't buy the new program 100%, your career is in jeopardy. What the hell kind of freedom of speech is that? I'd love to hear your explanation.
What does this have to do with Jessee's election?

The Wren Cross debacle isn't related to this, but I keep seeing it brought up over and over again.
zamfir

Ellicott City, MD

#18 Dec 27, 2011
Moderate Clam wrote:
ZeZir? Isn't that the pan flute guy?
It's "Zamfir, Master of the Pan Flute."

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