Barbara Forrest: Repeal Louisiana's creationist law

May 21, 2011 Full story: The Shreveport Times 58

Zachary Kopplin, a Baton Rouge Magnet High School senior, is working to repeal the creationist 2008 Louisiana Science Education Act .

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Since: Sep 07

La Quinta, CA

#21 May 23, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks. I just got back on Topix after being away for about 10 months. Didn't realize he was a troll until after a few postings.
Let's re-assess those "few postings" shall we.

You claim that LA has something to offer - but can't back it up.
You fail to defend your states intention to teach Creationism.
You pretend that you guys aren't still celebrating the Civil War.

I'd say 10 months wasn't enough of a break. Try back in a year or two.

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#22 May 23, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for jumping in on the middle of a conversation in which you are not involved. Excellent point you made about creationism and LA's relative value as a state.
Oh, wait, that's right. You didn't make a point.
You just rode in and decided to fling mud.
Sounds like the one and only troll here has been identified.
This is a public forum. Anyone can jump in to the middle of a conversation. Since everyone can read this. Everyone is involved.

I am an atheist and think the creationism law is ridiculous and needs to be repealed. I was with Zack and a large group of atheists from New Orleans to support him when we had a press conference introducing the bill in front of the capital in Baton Rouge.

You are very angry. I flung no mud. You may want to see someone about your histrionic personality disorder.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#23 May 24, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
You fail to defend your states intention to teach Creationism.
Somehow I get the impression he doesn't want to.

Since: Sep 07

La Quinta, CA

#24 May 24, 2011
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Somehow I get the impression he doesn't want to.
Then we go back to my original point.

We keep having to have these "Let's save the idiot red states from themselves" fights in the legislature.

I say screw it.

We're NEVER going to convince those people that education is important. We're NEVER going to convince those people that science is important.

Let's use the time and money to give kids in real states BETTER educations.

Then we have educated kids AND kids who can be their janitors. Everyone is happy

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#25 May 24, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
Then we go back to my original point.
We keep having to have these "Let's save the idiot red states from themselves" fights in the legislature.
I say screw it.
We're NEVER going to convince those people that education is important. We're NEVER going to convince those people that science is important.
Let's use the time and money to give kids in real states BETTER educations.
Then we have educated kids AND kids who can be their janitors. Everyone is happy
(Reminder: TAKE YOUR MEDS BEFORE POSTING! lol)

So, every state has their struggles with progress. Sometimes it takes a Supreme Court ruling to make the dummies get in line with common sense.

Take same-sex marriage, for example. Granted, Louisiana has a constitutional ban on it, but California passed one, too (although it's being fought in the courts). So, since California is not 100% as progressive as say, New England, should we also have Californians cleaning the toilets of New Englanders, as you suggest?

In 20 years or less, I have a feeling that SCOTUS will strike down all same-sex marriage bans in all 50 states.

Back to creationism ... SCOTUS has ruled on this; unfortunately, some states are stubborn (mine, for example) and will keep trying to sneak in creationism under the guise of other terms (I.D., "Science Education Act," etc.) Soon, I suspect, these states will exhaust all of these attempts at injecting religious beliefs into the science classroom, and they will move on.

Granted, some states are slow about willingly progressing with the rest of the country, but at one time, every state was not where it is now, 2011, in terms of progress.
The Dude

UK

#26 May 24, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
Soon, I suspect, these states will exhaust all of these attempts at injecting religious beliefs into the science classroom, and they will move on.
Nope, I doubt that. They've been trying for over a century, and the price and prize are all the souls of America. They won't stop. They may exhaust the ID thing, if so it will morph into something else. Or they may just drop the science charade altogether and go for a full-on politico/religious push, ala Billy Graham in the 50's. These are fundies. And one thing that they are good at is being persistent. Hence why the more Zack Kopplins there are the better.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#27 May 24, 2011
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, I doubt that. They've been trying for over a century, and the price and prize are all the souls of America. They won't stop. They may exhaust the ID thing, if so it will morph into something else. Or they may just drop the science charade altogether and go for a full-on politico/religious push, ala Billy Graham in the 50's. These are fundies. And one thing that they are good at is being persistent. Hence why the more Zack Kopplins there are the better.
Dunno. Call me an optimist, but I think that IN THE LONG RUN, science will win even this out. Hell, maybe even in the short run as well.

Granted, the track record is not REAL good, but they do seem to be on the right path (for now). Not to say that due care should not be maintained at a VERY HIGH LEVEL, but like our LA host here (whatshisname), I think Louisiana could ride this out.

Since: Sep 07

La Quinta, CA

#28 May 24, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
Take same-sex marriage, for example. Granted, Louisiana has a constitutional ban on it, but California passed one, too (although it's being fought in the courts). So, since California is not 100% as progressive as say, New England, should we also have Californians cleaning the toilets of New Englanders, as you suggest?
I know you are having trouble following along. It's not your fault.

I'll go slow.

Because the Creationism debate is taking place within the educational system, I am saying we shouldn't waste money trying to fix Louisiana's education system. We should just let them all fail.

Then they would be cleaning toilets.

You've responded that because California doesn't recognize same sex marriage, we should cut funding to education.

That's doesn't follow.

If you want to cut federal funding to some California marriage committee or something, PLEASE DO.
Soon, I suspect, these states will exhaust all of these attempts at injecting religious beliefs into the science classroom, and they will move on.
This is where you are dead wrong.

States like yours have an unlimited supply of ignorant bible thumpers who will forever be trying to force their religious beliefs on everyone else.

NO ruling. No facts. No logic. Nothing will slow much less stop them.

At a certain point the doctor has to say "We can't save the foot" and just lop it off before it kills the rest of the body.

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#29 May 24, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
I know you are having trouble following along. It's not your fault.
I'll go slow.
Because the Creationism debate is taking place within the educational system, I am saying we shouldn't waste money trying to fix Louisiana's education system. We should just let them all fail.
Then they would be cleaning toilets.
You've responded that because California doesn't recognize same sex marriage, we should cut funding to education.
That's doesn't follow.
If you want to cut federal funding to some California marriage committee or something, PLEASE DO.
<quoted text>
This is where you are dead wrong.
States like yours have an unlimited supply of ignorant bible thumpers who will forever be trying to force their religious beliefs on everyone else.
NO ruling. No facts. No logic. Nothing will slow much less stop them.
At a certain point the doctor has to say "We can't save the foot" and just lop it off before it kills the rest of the body.
I think you're having a problem with reading comprehension, Your Lordship.

I wasn't saying cut off funding to education because California doesn't recognize SSM. I was pointing out how both situations (the banning of SSM and the permitting of teaching creationism in the schools) are similar in that both take people progressing on social issues. You don't think that SSM is not a "religious" issue for those who oppose it? It's the same batch of dummies who are against SSM who are for teaching creationism in the classrooms.

Come on now, are you really a troll, or are you that much of an extremist to suggest the ludicrous idea of just throwing up our hands and letting the educational system go to pot?

Since: Sep 07

La Quinta, CA

#30 May 24, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you're having a problem with reading comprehension, Your Lordship.
I wasn't saying cut off funding to education because California doesn't recognize SSM. I was pointing out how both situations (the banning of SSM and the permitting of teaching creationism in the schools) are similar in that both take people progressing on social issues. You don't think that SSM is not a "religious" issue for those who oppose it? It's the same batch of dummies who are against SSM who are for teaching creationism in the classrooms.
The opposite. I don't think that evolution vs creationism is a social issue. It's a matter of facts.

I am personally for SSM, but that's not really a topic of factual dispute. It's opinion (albeit wrong) that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't have the right to marry.

There are no facts when it comes to moral judgements of right and wrong. They are make believe.

In the case of Creationism vs Evolution there are stone cold facts.

That's the problem.

Saying that Californians should be "cleaning toilets" (presumably because of a lack of education) because the African Americans in California dislike homosexuality is simply NOT on par with your STATE GOVERNMENT passing a law the contradicts scientific facts in favor of fairy tales.
Come on now, are you really a troll, or are you that much of an extremist to suggest the ludicrous idea of just throwing up our hands and letting the educational system go to pot?
I'm saying we SAVE the educational system in places where people are likely to gain something from it.

If your State is electing to remove science, I say we take those teachers and that money and give it to a state that is doing well.

Let your state see the results of their policies. Let them discover they don't have any doctors or bio-tech.

Fighting to keep people from making themselves stupid is a losing battle. Those resources should be spent in places where they have a chance to benefit society.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#31 May 25, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
The opposite. I don't think that evolution vs creationism is a social issue. It's a matter of facts.
I am personally for SSM, but that's not really a topic of factual dispute. It's opinion (albeit wrong) that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't have the right to marry.
There are no facts when it comes to moral judgements of right and wrong. They are make believe.
In the case of Creationism vs Evolution there are stone cold facts.
That's the problem.
Have to disagree with you here. Of course evolution is a fact and will go on long after we're all dead regardless of the creationist's personal feelings on the subject. But it IS a social issue - precisely because they've made it one. The fundies have been around fighting AGAINST reality since the late 19th century. The first time evolution/creationism went to court, they won. Thankfully they lost every one since, but that didn't start until the late 60's, AFTER they managed to put God on the US Dollar and the Pledge of Allegiance. And now they've learned how to avoid the courts and use political pressuring and PR campaigns that enable tossers like Bobby Jindal to pass laws that allow violations of the First Amendment.

It's not a scientific debate, it never has been. But just because the fundies don't have facts on their side hasn't stopped them from gaining at least some ground. They don't fight fair. They don't use facts as weapons. PR, political pressure and emotional rhetoric are their weapons, and they are quite good at it. And they've got a whole bunch of gullible rubes willing to give them lots of money (Harold Camping now springs to mind) because they believe they have the moral imperative to force their Dark Age belief system onto everybody else. Facts may always win out but that doesn't mean people have to pay attention.

http://xkcd.com/154/

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#32 May 25, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
The opposite. I don't think that evolution vs creationism is a social issue. It's a matter of facts.
I am personally for SSM, but that's not really a topic of factual dispute. It's opinion (albeit wrong) that homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't have the right to marry.
There are no facts when it comes to moral judgements of right and wrong. They are make believe.
In the case of Creationism vs Evolution there are stone cold facts.
That's the problem.
Saying that Californians should be "cleaning toilets" (presumably because of a lack of education) because the African Americans in California dislike homosexuality is simply NOT on par with your STATE GOVERNMENT passing a law the contradicts scientific facts in favor of fairy tales.
<quoted text>
I'm saying we SAVE the educational system in places where people are likely to gain something from it.
If your State is electing to remove science, I say we take those teachers and that money and give it to a state that is doing well.
Let your state see the results of their policies. Let them discover they don't have any doctors or bio-tech.
Fighting to keep people from making themselves stupid is a losing battle. Those resources should be spent in places where they have a chance to benefit society.
No one can take you seriously when you suggest we take all money away from a state's public education system because that state has dumb laws. Anyway, the money for public education comes from the states themselves. There are federal programs that give some money to states, but the bulk comes from the individual states.

Do you even realize what you're suggesting? Defunding education would make dumb states even dumber.

Since: Sep 07

La Quinta, CA

#33 May 25, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
<quoted text>
No one can take you seriously when you suggest we take all money away from a state's public education system because that state has dumb laws. Anyway, the money for public education comes from the states themselves. There are federal programs that give some money to states, but the bulk comes from the individual states.
Do you even realize what you're suggesting? Defunding education would make dumb states even dumber.
I think they only way to wake up the middle to what the far right is doing is to show them there are going to be consequences for their silence.

Remove funding for education until the school boards are no longer forcing anti-constitutional agendas.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#34 May 25, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
I think they only way to wake up the middle to what the far right is doing is to show them there are going to be consequences for their silence.
Remove funding for education until the school boards are no longer forcing anti-constitutional agendas.
Usually it's not so much a case of withholding funding but more a case of qualifying for it. By what legal means do you propose to implement your funding removal plan?

BTW, Federal funding is less than 10% of school budgets the last time I looked.

Since: Sep 07

La Quinta, CA

#35 May 25, 2011
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Usually it's not so much a case of withholding funding but more a case of qualifying for it. By what legal means do you propose to implement your funding removal plan?
BTW, Federal funding is less than 10% of school budgets the last time I looked.
Well, given that LA just did 2 billion dollars in damage to themselves with the flood gates, I'd bet that 10% of the school budget is money they desperately need.

As for "what legal means", you've answered it yourself. If they want to teach Creationism, they no longer qualify for funding.

I'd take it a step further, if I could, and get publicly funded higher institutions (State Colleges / Universities) from other states to defacto reject high school students from LA unless they can demonstrate a minimum level of science education on a standardized test.

Call it "A lack of confidence in the state's ability to provide even minimal education to it's citizens".
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#36 May 25, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah jeez. I was in no way defending this studid law nor do I like all the fundy Legislators thinking that they know more than real scientists.
But when you make a nasty, insulting blanket statement about all people in one state, it is very offensive. No matter how much of a dump you may think a place is, there are always a few good, intelligent people living there.
That might be true, and you may indeed be one of them, but if Louisiana keeps kowtowing to the "fundamentalist christian creationists" there WILL be fewer and fewer of you since ALL of the students in Louisiana will be exposed to (and many brain washed by) the stupidity that is "creationism".

That was the point I was making (which seems to have gone right over your head).

BTW I noticed that you were pretty quick to make insulting, blanket statements yourself.

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#37 May 25, 2011
Nuggin wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, given that LA just did 2 billion dollars in damage to themselves with the flood gates, I'd bet that 10% of the school budget is money they desperately need.
As for "what legal means", you've answered it yourself. If they want to teach Creationism, they no longer qualify for funding.
I'd take it a step further, if I could, and get publicly funded higher institutions (State Colleges / Universities) from other states to defacto reject high school students from LA unless they can demonstrate a minimum level of science education on a standardized test.
Call it "A lack of confidence in the state's ability to provide even minimal education to it's citizens".
The flood gates? Oh dear. You claim to know a lot about science but fail to realize that all that water rising along the Mississippi River in Louisiana came from up North because of the snow melting.

The spillways are flood-control structures, built in part by the federal government. These structures are doing what they are supposed to be doing -- preventing major flooding in the most populated areas of Louisiana, New Orleans and Baton Rouge. Any damage that may be done to areas in the Morganza Spillway will not be a surprise. Anyone building in this area knew the risk of flooding and carries expensive flood insurance for this purpose. The dollar amount in damage will be minimal.

Flooding occurs in many areas of our country, but no place has structures like ours which prevents the maximum amount of damage.

Jeez, why are you such a prick?

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#38 May 25, 2011
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>
That might be true, and you may indeed be one of them, but if Louisiana keeps kowtowing to the "fundamentalist christian creationists" there WILL be fewer and fewer of you since ALL of the students in Louisiana will be exposed to (and many brain washed by) the stupidity that is "creationism".
That was the point I was making (which seems to have gone right over your head).
BTW I noticed that you were pretty quick to make insulting, blanket statements yourself.
I feel attacked by you and nuggin because I live in Louisiana. Somehow, you lump me in with all the other creationist dummies. I do not agree with this stupid law that may allow the teaching of creationism. I am agreeing with you all, but I am treated like another bible-thumpin' country pumpkin with no ejukashun.

What part of "I am for the repeal of this stupid law" do you not understand? I stood on the steps of the Capitol with Zach and others for the press conference a few weeks ago announcing the bill to repeal the law.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#39 May 25, 2011
Luzianner wrote:
<quoted text>
I feel attacked by you and nuggin because I live in Louisiana. Somehow, you lump me in with all the other creationist dummies. I do not agree with this stupid law that may allow the teaching of creationism. I am agreeing with you all, but I am treated like another bible-thumpin' country pumpkin with no ejukashun.
We are attacking your state legislature for being stupid. No where in my post do I attack you personally.
Luzianner wrote:
<quoted text>What part of "I am for the repeal of this stupid law" do you not understand? I stood on the steps of the Capitol with Zach and others for the press conference a few weeks ago announcing the bill to repeal the law.
Good for you, but what part of "if Louisiana starts teaching creationism, then Louisiana will graduate fewer students from college and university with science degrees" did you not understand?

“Loving kindness is my religion”

Since: Jun 10

New Orleans, LA

#40 May 25, 2011
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>
We are attacking your state legislature for being stupid. No where in my post do I attack you personally.
<quoted text>
Good for you, but what part of "if Louisiana starts teaching creationism, then Louisiana will graduate fewer students from college and university with science degrees" did you not understand?
Oh, I understand that very well. That's why I'm part of this fight.

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