#44432 Jul 4, 2013
17.“Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance.”
~James Madison, letter, 1822
18.“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”
~James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical
19.“It is only when the people become ignorant and corrupt, when they degenerate into a populace, that they are incapable of exercising the sovereignty. Usurpation is then an easy attainment, and an usurper soon found. The people themselves become the willing instruments of their own debasement and ruin. Let us, then, look to the great cause, and endeavor to preserve it in full force. Let us by all wise and constitutional measures promote intelligence among the people as the best means of preserving our liberties.”
~James Monroe, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1817
20.“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
~Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
#44433 Jul 4, 2013
21.“Manufacturers, who listening to the powerful invitations of a better price for their fabrics, or their labor, of greater cheapness of provisions and raw materials, of an exemption from the chief part of the taxes burdens and restraints, which they endure in the old world, of greater personal independence and consequence, under the operation of a more equal government, and of what is far more precious than mere religious toleration–a perfect equality of religious privileges; would probably flock from Europe to the United States to pursue their own trades or professions, if they were once made sensible of the advantages they would enjoy, and were inspired with an assurance of encouragement and employment, will, with difficulty, be induced to transplant themselves, with a view to becoming cultivators of the land.”
~Alexander Hamilton: Report on the Subject of Manufacturers December 5,
22.“In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind.”
~Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists (1771)
23.“That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forebearance, love, and charity towards each other.”
~George Mason, Virginia Bill of Rights, 1776
24.“It is contrary to the principles of reason and justice that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to all the good people of this commonwealth.”
~George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776
#44434 Jul 4, 2013
25.“A man of abilities and character, of any sect whatever, may be admitted to any office or public trust under the United States. I am a friend to a variety of sects, because they keep one another in order. How many different sects are we composed of throughout the United States? How many different sects will be in congress? We cannot enumerate the sects that may be in congress. And there are so many now in the United States that they will prevent the establishment of any one sect in prejudice to the rest, and will forever oppose all attempts to infringe religious liberty. If such an attempt be made, will not the alarm be sounded throughout America? If congress be as wicked as we are foretold they will, they would not run the risk of exciting the resentment of all, or most of the religious sects in America.”
~Edmund Randolph, address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June
26.“I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church — an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments — but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government”
~Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57
27. A general toleration of Religion appears to me the best means of peopling our country… The free exercise of religion hath stocked the Northern part of the continent with inhabitants; and altho’ Europe hath in great measure adopted a more moderate policy, yet the profession of Protestantism is extremely inconvenient in many places there. A Calvinist, a Lutheran, or Quaker, who hath felt these inconveniences in Europe, sails not to Virginia, where they are felt perhaps in a (greater degree).”
~Patrick Henry, observing that immigrants flock to places where there is no established religion, Religious Tolerance, 1766
28.“No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
~Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731
#44435 Jul 4, 2013
9.“Knowledge and liberty are so prevalent in this country, that I do not believe that the United States would ever be disposed to establish one religious sect, and lay all others under legal disabilities. But as we know not what may take place hereafter, and any such test would be exceedingly injurious to the rights of free citizens, I cannot think it altogether superfluous to have added a clause, which secures us from the possibility of such oppression.”
~Oliver Wolcott, Connecticut Ratifying Convention, 9 January 1788
30.“Some very worthy persons, who have not had great advantages for information, have objected against that clause in the constitution
which provides, that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. They have been afraid that this clause is unfavorable to religion. But my countrymen, the sole purpose and effect of it is to exclude persecution, and to secure to you the important right of religious
liberty. We are almost the only people in the world, who have a full enjoyment of this important right of human nature. In our country every man has a right to worship God in that way which is most agreeable to his conscience. If he be a good and peaceable person he is liable to no penalties or incapacities on account of his religious sentiments; or in other words, he is not subject to persecution. But in other parts of the world, it has been, and still is, far different. Systems of religious error have been adopted, in times of ignorance. It has been the interest of tyrannical kings, popes, and prelates, to maintain these errors. When the clouds of ignorance began to vanish, and the people grew more enlightened, there was no other way to keep them in error, but to prohibit their altering their religious opinions by severe persecuting laws. In this way persecution became general throughout Europe.”
~Oliver Ellsworth, Philip B Kurland and Ralph Lerner (eds.), The Founder’s Constitution, University of Chicago Press, 1987, Vol. 4, p.
31.“Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.”
~Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791
32.“God has appointed two kinds of government in the world, which are distinct in their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government.”
~Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773
#44436 Jul 4, 2013
33.“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
~Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789
34.“The American states have gone far in assisting the progress of truth; but they have stopped short of perfection. They ought to have given every honest citizen an equal right to enjoy his religion and an equal title to all civil emoluments, without obliging him to tell his religion. Every interference of the civil power in regulating opinion, is an impious attempt to take the business of the Deity out of his own hands; and every preference given to any religious denomination, is so far slavery and bigotry.”
~Noah Webster, calling for no religious tests to serve in public office, Sketches of American Policy, 1785
35.“The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”
~Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787
#44437 Jul 4, 2013
These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation governed by the Bible as conservatives constantly claim. On the contrary, the great majority of the Founders believed strongly in separation of church and state. So on Independence Day, keep in mind that this country has survived for over two centuries under the principle of separation and it is only now when conservatives are attempting to destroy that very cornerstone that we find America becoming ever more divided and more politically charged than ever before. If this right-wing faction has their way, America as we know it will cease to exist and the freedoms we have enjoyed because of the Constitution will erode. The Founding Fathers had a vision of this
nation and trusted that the people would protect that vision and improve upon it. Now is not the time to fail them. Because the day the people fail, so does America.
#44438 Jul 4, 2013
An "Independent" is just a wantabee Repug who doesn't have the guts to say krappy things and be an idiot all the time.
#44439 Jul 4, 2013
Radical Conservative Christians won't like these quotes and guess what? I don't care if they don't.
#44440 Jul 4, 2013
And to those religious conservatives I say: If God did not want the USA to have separation of church and state he would never have allowed this country to have been formed the way it was!
It just means to those religious conservatives that they must work harder to see to it that their religious point of view gets seen and heard, something they are loathe to do, for they would want it to be law, thereby making the government the arbiter of their religious views and the force by which we would all have to comply...don't the Taliban do that somewhere?
#44441 Jul 4, 2013
The key word here in all of these is 'enlightenment'. These men were doing their best to ensure that the dark ages didn't follow them to the New World. They wanted gov't of the people, by the people and for the people. Today, it's gov't for the corporations and screw Joe Public until he squeaks, then some more. I want to be mega rich and enlightenment can go hang.
#44442 Jul 4, 2013
Oppression and corruption were trademarks of the Republic of Rome, in which the modern GOP have willingly followed to the 'T,' with the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer, ignoring the true meaning of said 'scriptures' they have so boisterously claimed to be theirs to carry as sword and shield, and in doing so, have failed all Americans.
#44443 Jul 4, 2013
Now what is your point?
There is very little respect of late being shown to this country and what it was founded on. I do not expect the government to follow anyone religion but I damn sure do not want it ran by Satan. I damn sure donot want it run by Muslim's law. But if it takes a person believing in God thru some kind of religion to make the right choices in life then so be it. A person that truly believes in God is not going to rob, steal or do the wrong thing in their choices in life. But a person that does under handed things can not lay true claim to be following God as most of us know him. So what is going to wake the people running this government do the right thing by this country and it's people?
#44444 Jul 4, 2013
I have three more equally important quotes for you:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" - James Madison, Memorial & Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, 1785.
"Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us." -(same as above).
""In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights." - probably James Madison (possibly Alexander Hamilton), Federalist Paper #51, 1788.
#44445 Jul 4, 2013
At one time churches were taxed just like any other organization. It never harmed them a bit. The Southern Baptist are more than just lobbyist - many are now in Congress working to force their religious convictions on all of us. Taxing churches would hopefully suppress those in the business (literally) of religion from becoming wealthy at the expense of their congregations. There are far too many multi-million dollar cathederals and millionaire (or billionaire) Evangelical preachers in this country. Not only should we tax them, they should be forced to read the NT and what it says about the rich.
#44446 Jul 4, 2013
A better, and more productive action would be to tax any church which participates or allows others on their property to participate in, any political actions. For example, any attempt by an organized religion to influence legislation (such as the Catholics fighting the ACA) would immediately remove tax exempt status from that entity. that is the way it is supposed to be. Stealing a conservative concept from them, let's just enforce the laws we already have.
#44447 Jul 4, 2013
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”.
#44448 Jul 4, 2013
I am an ex-Pentecostal and I can tell you that they most definitely want a state religion - Christianity. Not only Christianity, but their form of Christianity. "No one" covers a lot of people. Americans, especially other Christians had better take warning. Your brand of Christianity could well end up on the hate list.
#44449 Jul 4, 2013
Christians in Oklahoma have already tried to make Christianity the state religion, and Christian prayers are routinely used here to open city- and county-level public meetings--not to mention public school events. What those Christians want is for government to quit interfering with their attempts to force Christianity into every occasion and down every citizen's throat, and they are very open about what they want.
#44450 Jul 4, 2013
"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another"-Jonathan Swift.
"In all ages of the world, priest have been enemies of liberty"-David Hume.
"I drive by the homeless sleepin on a cold dark street.
Like bodies in and open grave.
Underneath the broken old neon sign.
That used to read JESUS SAVES.
A mile away live the rich folk.
And I see how they're living it up.
While the poor they eat from hand to mouth.
The rich is drinkin' from a golden cup.
And it just makes me wonder.
Why so many lose, so few win"- Poison.
#44451 Jul 4, 2013
When has it been unusual for a Christian to lie to save the word of their god? We all know that Mary lied when she told Joseph she was having a baby but it was no his. How traditional was that family? And to flee to a manger to avoid the gossip is so Kardashian. That whole story is so hard to swallow from beginning to end.
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