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Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#25051
Feb 5, 2014
 

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mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see any distinction between so-called "Neanderthals" and "modern" humans.
<quoted text>
"Krings et al. then compared this sequence against a database of 994 different mtDNA sequences from modern humans. For the sequence of mtDNA in question, humans on average differ from each other in 8 +/- 3.1 positions (the '3.1' represents one standard deviation). The greatest difference between any two modern humans was 24, and the smallest difference was 1 (because duplicates were removed from the database).

By contrast, the Neandertal genome had an average of 27 +/- 2.2 differences from modern humans (3.375 times the average difference between modern humans). The smallest difference between any human and the Neandertal was 22, and the largest difference between any human and the Neandertal was 36. These differences put the Neandertal genome well outside the limits of modern humans."

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mtDNA.ht...
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

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#25052
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Pope Che Reagan Christ I wrote:
<quoted text>
See what I mean? That's boring. Tell us about those election numbers.
so you are still with the rubber doll then.

try putting a bag over your head....maybe that will help.

there has to be someone desperate enough to be with you.

check craigslist.....run a ad.
Pops

Newport, KY

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#25053
Feb 5, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, there are extinct animals and plants. But like you said, every single dinosaur is gone, both large and small. Not just a few types. Was every single species incapable of surviving, or did something wipe them out?
Was every single species of hominid incapable of surviving, after having lived and multiplied for millions of years? Or was there also a catastrophic occurrence that wiped every one of them out, but miraculously avoided wiping out primates and modern man? I wonder what the odds of that would be.
It seems that you have hit on examples of how delicate nature can be.
I have been in awe of the balance of (among others) the desert bio-theme is. For example, most deserts have some life that has adapted to that extreme. Sparse vegetation, rocks & crannies that still harbor insects, arachnids, rodents, snakes & lizards that are all delicately & intricately interacting. With possibly an occasional roaming coyote or raptor in the mix.
IF a 2,3,4 or 5 yr weather change comes about, one species could excell while another diminishes. Just amazingly delicate, wonderfully balanced.
Then humankind comes along & stirs the mix dramatically.
Reality Speaks

Columbus, OH

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#25054
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Pops wrote:
<quoted text> It seems that you have hit on examples of how delicate nature can be.
I have been in awe of the balance of (among others) the desert bio-theme is. For example, most deserts have some life that has adapted to that extreme. Sparse vegetation, rocks & crannies that still harbor insects, arachnids, rodents, snakes & lizards that are all delicately & intricately interacting. With possibly an occasional roaming coyote or raptor in the mix.
IF a 2,3,4 or 5 yr weather change comes about, one species could excell while another diminishes. Just amazingly delicate, wonderfully balanced.
Then humankind comes along & stirs the mix dramatically.
think about a 17 year locust.

or frogs burrowed in the ground for years waiting for flood rains to mate. Timing for successful hatch and tadpole survival is critical.
Ham

Napoleon, OH

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#25058
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Pops wrote:
<quoted text> It seems that you have hit on examples of how delicate nature can be.
I have been in awe of the balance of (among others) the desert bio-theme is. For example, most deserts have some life that has adapted to that extreme. Sparse vegetation, rocks & crannies that still harbor insects, arachnids, rodents, snakes & lizards that are all delicately & intricately interacting. With possibly an occasional roaming coyote or raptor in the mix.
IF a 2,3,4 or 5 yr weather change comes about, one species could excell while another diminishes. Just amazingly delicate, wonderfully balanced.
Then humankind comes along & stirs the mix dramatically.
Newport pops wrote:
<quoted text>I know someone that says that Man has NOT colonized the moon because there are 'aliens' on the dark side that say that we (mankind) does NOT belong there. He & his wife also say that the contrails from jets are mind control agents being dispensed by the government. AND that since you can NOT disprove that, that makes it true. How can one argue with that 'thought' process?
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#25061
Feb 5, 2014
 
Old Guy wrote:
"Krings et al. then compared this sequence against a database of 994 different mtDNA sequences from modern humans. For the sequence of mtDNA in question, humans on average differ from each other in 8 +/- 3.1 positions (the '3.1' represents one standard deviation). The greatest difference between any two modern humans was 24, and the smallest difference was 1 (because duplicates were removed from the database).
By contrast, the Neandertal genome had an average of 27 +/- 2.2 differences from modern humans (3.375 times the average difference between modern humans). The smallest difference between any human and the Neandertal was 22, and the largest difference between any human and the Neandertal was 36. These differences put the Neandertal genome well outside the limits of modern humans."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mtDNA.ht...
I was surprised that DNA had been extracted from fossils, and very skeptical of the quality of it. It turns out that it is, indeed, very difficult to extract the DNA, and what has been gathered is poor quality. Another concern is modern-human DNA contamination. Even a small amount mixed in with the "Neanderthal's" will skew the results.
Look at this govt website, and in particular, the section about "Authenticity".
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...
Pops

Newport, KY

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#25062
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Reality Speaks wrote:
<quoted text>
think about a 17 year locust.
or frogs burrowed in the ground for years waiting for flood rains to mate. Timing for successful hatch and tadpole survival is critical.
I did think of those but simply didn't expound. All the more amazing. From the Namibian Desert of beetles & snakes to the penquins of Antartica. Mountain sheep & goats of elevated regions to the Sloths & Anaconda of the tropics to the migration of Wildabeast of Africa, Monarch Butterflies & so many more . ALL a delicate balance of nature.
I am still in awe. Absolutely amazing!! And absolutely delicate.
Pops

Newport, KY

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#25064
Feb 5, 2014
 
Ham wrote:
<quoted text>Newport pops wrote:
<quoted text>I know someone that says that Man has NOT colonized the moon because there are 'aliens' on the dark side that say that we (mankind) does NOT belong there. He & his wife also say that the contrails from jets are mind control agents being dispensed by the government. AND that since you can NOT disprove that, that makes it true. How can one argue with that 'thought' process?
Copying & pasting this means what? NOTHING at all to the subject thread that YOU put it in.
Please contribute instead of simply adding BS to the thread. Unless that is the best that 'ham/pork' can articulate What the heck is your point....IF you have one?
Your lack of intellect is clearly showing .
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#25065
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Pops wrote:
It seems that you have hit on examples of how delicate nature can be.
I have been in awe of the balance of (among others) the desert bio-theme is. For example, most deserts have some life that has adapted to that extreme. Sparse vegetation, rocks & crannies that still harbor insects, arachnids, rodents, snakes & lizards that are all delicately & intricately interacting. With possibly an occasional roaming coyote or raptor in the mix.
IF a 2,3,4 or 5 yr weather change comes about, one species could excell while another diminishes. Just amazingly delicate, wonderfully balanced.
Then humankind comes along & stirs the mix dramatically.
It is amazing how life can thrive in such extreme places. It's a wonder, to be sure.
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#25066
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Has anyone watched the debate between Bill Nye & Ken Ham? Both Nye and Ham did a very good job. Really interesting, the different viewpoints.

I was surprised by the answers to the last question, or rather by the implications in the answers. The question was: "What is the one thing, more than anything else, on which you base your belief?" I won't try to explain each of the answers, because I wouldn't do them justice, but I was left with the sobering reminder that life and the pursuit of science without God is profoundly meaningless.

You can watch the debate here:
http://debatelive.org/...
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#25067
Feb 5, 2014
 

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mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
I was surprised that DNA had been extracted from fossils, and very skeptical of the quality of it. It turns out that it is, indeed, very difficult to extract the DNA, and what has been gathered is poor quality. Another concern is modern-human DNA contamination. Even a small amount mixed in with the "Neanderthal's" will skew the results.
Look at this govt website, and in particular, the section about "Authenticity".
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...
We've come a long way together, mutt. When I first encountered you, you said there was no evidence. Now we are talking about the quality of the evidence.

And you linked to a good article, form a good journal. Well done!

I read all of the "Authenticity" section, and here's what I came away with: this is a difficult problem, and even the most careful scientist can be done in by contamination of samples. Instead of giving up in the face of this difficult challenge, science presses on, and tries to fix the technical problems.

"These observations have spurred the development of several quality control steps in Neanderthal DNA handling and sequencing, including ligating adapters to Neanderthal DNA immediately after extraction to provide molecular barcodes that will distinguish it from modern DNA potentially introduced in downstream applications (Green et al. 2009)."

The best way to understand an article like this is to start with the abstract, a short summary which precedes the article. Here's the essence of this project, from the abstract:

"Here, I will discuss efforts to obtain genomic sequence from Neanderthal, the closest known relative of modern humans. Recent studies in this nascent field have focused on developing methods to recover nuclear DNA from Neanderthal remains. The success of these early studies has inspired a Neanderthal genome project, which promises to produce a reference Neanderthal genome sequence in the near future. Technical issues, such as the level of Neanderthal sequence coverage that can realistically be obtained from a single specimen and the presence of modern human contaminating sequences, reduce the detection of authentic human–Neanderthal sequence differences but may be remedied by methodological improvements. "

Of course, you could also just jump in at the beginning of the article:

"We are a young species. The most recent genetic and fossil evidence suggests that modern humans emerged in East Africa &#8764;200,000 yr ago, a fraction of the estimated 6 million yr since the divergence of the human and chimpanzee lineages (Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman 2003; McDougall et al. 2005). In this brief time, modern humans have spread across the globe, far surpassing all other primate and archaic human species in sheer numbers, geographic range, technological sophistication, and impact on the environment. Our success is due in part to complex biological features, including increased brain size, bipedalism, and modifications in craniofacial and limb morphology, which began to emerge on the human lineage well before the rise of modern humans. These adaptations facilitated the evolution of uniquely human behavioral traits such as language and are ultimately due to DNA sequence changes arising on the human lineage since the human–chimpanzee split. Identifying these changes has become a major focus of human genetics and genomics."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...

Since: Jan 13

Lexington, KY

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#25068
Feb 5, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
Has anyone watched the debate between Bill Nye & Ken Ham? Both Nye and Ham did a very good job. Really interesting, the different viewpoints.
I was surprised by the answers to the last question, or rather by the implications in the answers. The question was: "What is the one thing, more than anything else, on which you base your belief?" I won't try to explain each of the answers, because I wouldn't do them justice, but I was left with the sobering reminder that life and the pursuit of science without God is profoundly meaningless.
You can watch the debate here:
http://debatelive.org/...
I have a question for you. If God created Adam and Eve who then had 2 sons one of which murdered the other how did our earth get populated?.
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#25069
Feb 5, 2014
 
joanna50 wrote:
<quoted text>I have a question for you. If God created Adam and Eve who then had 2 sons one of which murdered the other how did our earth get populated?.
Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters. I think the son Eve had after Abel was killed was Seth. He was in the lineage of Christ.
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#25070
Feb 5, 2014
 

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Old Guy wrote:
We've come a long way together, mutt. When I first encountered you, you said there was no evidence. Now we are talking about the quality of the evidence.
And you linked to a good article, form a good journal. Well done!
I don't want to crap on your new-found respect for me, as I do enjoy debating with you, but I did say that I had misspoke when I used the word "evidence". I should have said "proof". There is evidence for any belief, but the evidence doesn't necessarily prove the theory.

I've consistently tried to discuss the quality of the evidence that scientists have found, as well as the accuracy of the dating methods and the questionable interpretations of the evidence. As I said before, I believe it's possible that another race of humans lived on the earth before Adam's race, and it was destroyed by a catastrophic event. So, I don't doubt that very old fossils have been found. But I doubt the reconstructions of them and the very detailed assumptions that scientists have made about these lifeforms based on very little evidence. The fact that the scientists continually change their opinions, shows that they're making assumptions about things they don't know enough about. I think the evidence more strongly supports the theory that there have been two separate human races and types of lifeforms on the earth at different times, more than it supports any other theory.

Since: Jan 13

Lexington, KY

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#25071
Feb 5, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters. I think the son Eve had after Abel was killed was Seth. He was in the lineage of Christ.
So they just slept with their siblings then and that's how the earth got populated by inbreeding?. How was Seth in lineage of Christ.

Since: Jan 13

Lexington, KY

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#25072
Feb 5, 2014
 
mutt wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't want to crap on your new-found respect for me, as I do enjoy debating with you, but I did say that I had misspoke when I used the word "evidence". I should have said "proof". There is evidence for any belief, but the evidence doesn't necessarily prove the theory.
I've consistently tried to discuss the quality of the evidence that scientists have found, as well as the accuracy of the dating methods and the questionable interpretations of the evidence. As I said before, I believe it's possible that another race of humans lived on the earth before Adam's race, and it was destroyed by a catastrophic event. So, I don't doubt that very old fossils have been found. But I doubt the reconstructions of them and the very detailed assumptions that scientists have made about these lifeforms based on very little evidence. The fact that the scientists continually change their opinions, shows that they're making assumptions about things they don't know enough about. I think the evidence more strongly supports the theory that there have been two separate human races and types of lifeforms on the earth at different times, more than it supports any other theory.
So did God create these life forms before Adam, thought Adam was a human what type of race was before that.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

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#25073
Feb 6, 2014
 
joanna50 wrote:
<quoted text>So they just slept with their siblings then and that's how the earth got populated by inbreeding?. How was Seth in lineage of Christ.
Here's what the Bible says in Genesis 5:

"1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

Since: Jan 13

Lexington, KY

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#25074
Feb 6, 2014
 

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Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's what the Bible says in Genesis 5:
"1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Still doesn't answer my question of how the earth was populated. You cant keep inbreeding and have genetically inferior offspring, the gene pool is tainted. So basically Seth just looked like Adam in physical appearance?.
Huh

Napoleon, OH

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#25075
Feb 6, 2014
 
joanna50 wrote:
<quoted text>Still doesn't answer my question of how the earth was populated. You cant keep inbreeding and have genetically inferior offspring, the gene pool is tainted. So basically Seth just looked like Adam in physical appearance?.
You lady, have missed the part, about the Land Of Nod! People from here were the procreators with Adam & Eve's son!
mutt

Chillicothe, OH

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#25076
Feb 6, 2014
 
joanna50 wrote:
So they just slept with their siblings then and that's how the earth got populated by inbreeding?.
Yeah, I guess so. If the bible is correct, Adam is the father of all of us.
How was Seth in lineage of Christ.
He had a son, who had a son, who had a son, etc.... all the way to either Joseph or Mary.

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