Hey Boeing go to Texas
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Historian

Paducah, KY

#23 Dec 30, 2013
ThomasA:

You are wrong. Today's obsenely inflated executive pay is NOT the result of "industry having the best brains available". It is the result of a kind of crony system. It also flies in the face of history. This country's best, most productive industrial era, and the era in which workers had the best living conditions, was the 1940 - 1970 years. Those decades produced the best industrial and financial leadership, but those leaders made far less in proportion to wage workers than today's robber barons do.

In those days the stockholders actually exercised a high degree of control over a company, too. Today the shareholder vote is a farce. Companies are actually controlled by little insider executive cliques. Those same cliques use inflated salaries to loot the company. The man who ran American industry in the pst World War II era were basically honest. Today's executives are basically crooks who push the envelope just as far as they possibly can and still stay out of jail.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#24 Dec 30, 2013
Valid points there Historian.

And today's shareholders aren't so knowledgeable on the whole either, they just want to know how much they'll be getting, how much they can sell for,......

Unions insisting on what amounts to semi-skilled labor being paid $36 p.h. is farcical. Would have to question that... how much are those bozo's making themselves. Gone are the days when unions represented workers and didn't take such fatcat profits for themselves, as if they were exec's.

Would rather buses were made than nothing at all. Too many industries have gone from the Northwest.
Historian

Paducah, KY

#25 Dec 30, 2013
Not really. To someone thinking in 1950-70 terms, yes,$36 an hour seems like a lot of money, but really it is not.

Adjusted for inflation $36 today is equal to $3.72 in 1950 dollars.

In terms of buying power adjusted for inflation, today's minimum wage is actually considerably less than it was in the 1970s.

Hourly workers have actually lost a lot of ground in the last 30 years or so, while at the same time the executives and the wealthy Wall Street wheeler dealer types have gained tremendously.
ThomasA

Birmingham, AL

#26 Dec 30, 2013
Historian wrote:
ThomasA:
You are wrong. Today's obsenely inflated executive pay is NOT the result of "industry having the best brains available". It is the result of a kind of crony system. It also flies in the face of history. This country's best, most productive industrial era, and the era in which workers had the best living conditions, was the 1940 - 1970 years. Those decades produced the best industrial and financial leadership, but those leaders made far less in proportion to wage workers than today's robber barons do.
In those days the stockholders actually exercised a high degree of control over a company, too. Today the shareholder vote is a farce. Companies are actually controlled by little insider executive cliques. Those same cliques use inflated salaries to loot the company. The man who ran American industry in the pst World War II era were basically honest. Today's executives are basically crooks who push the envelope just as far as they possibly can and still stay out of jail.
In the 40s-70s the American consumer bought American made goods and jobs were plentiful in every little town across this country. We bought American furniture, American cars, American clothes, American TV and radios ,and American raised beef and most other foods. You spent your years, retired and lived off your pension and savings interest. What happened? It wasn't a bomb ,guns, soldiers marching down main street, but a don't give a damn where it comes from attitude that invaded our country. The jobs dried up, small towns dried up and it took and still takes some pretty smart people at the top of the ladder to keep companies running and profitable in a global economy and where our people really don't care where a product is made, what it's made out of, or whether or not child and slave labor was used. Without these people you're knocking at the top , there would be no product, no production, no machines and no buttons for Doofus to push eight hours a day.
Historian

Paducah, KY

#27 Dec 30, 2013
It was those very people at the top that you seem to idolize who moved the American jobs overseas to those sweatshops that use child labor, etc.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#28 Dec 30, 2013
Historian wrote:
Not really. To someone thinking in 1950-70 terms, yes,$36 an hour seems like a lot of money, but really it is not.
Adjusted for inflation $36 today is equal to $3.72 in 1950 dollars.
In terms of buying power adjusted for inflation, today's minimum wage is actually considerably less than it was in the 1970s.
Hourly workers have actually lost a lot of ground in the last 30 years or so, while at the same time the executives and the wealthy Wall Street wheeler dealer types have gained tremendously.
Yes, in terms of today hourly wages are less. My point really being isn't it better to have a lower wage than no wage at all. Greedy employers as you've said outsource overseas and the unions don't actual help with demands for wage increases that the companies are not going to agree to.
Historian

Paducah, KY

#29 Dec 31, 2013
The "isn't it better to have a lower wage than no wage at all" premise is false, a kind of smokescreen that the wealthy wheeler dealers at the top have managed to pawn off on American workers. It really does not matter if an American worker accepts lower wages, because no matter how low they go, even down to minimum wage or below the amount needed to survive in the American economy, the American will never be able to compete with the overseas sweatshop. That, combined with the new business model predicated on maximizing short term profits and executive salaries, will still lead to the jobs being shifted overseas.

For almost all of its history, the American labor movement concentrated on bread and butter issues - wages and working conditions - and steered clear of European style labor political activism. With the economic structure and wealth distribution that has now developed in the USA, it is time that working people think about a politically active Labor Party moldeled on the lines of the ones in western Europe. That is the only way that they will ever be able to regain any kind of parity with the executives.
ThomasA

Chelsea, AL

#30 Dec 31, 2013
Historian wrote:
The "isn't it better to have a lower wage than no wage at all" premise is false, a kind of smokescreen that the wealthy wheeler dealers at the top have managed to pawn off on American workers. It really does not matter if an American worker accepts lower wages, because no matter how low they go, even down to minimum wage or below the amount needed to survive in the American economy, the American will never be able to compete with the overseas sweatshop. That, combined with the new business model predicated on maximizing short term profits and executive salaries, will still lead to the jobs being shifted overseas.
For almost all of its history, the American labor movement concentrated on bread and butter issues - wages and working conditions - and steered clear of European style labor political activism. With the economic structure and wealth distribution that has now developed in the USA, it is time that working people think about a politically active Labor Party moldeled on the lines of the ones in western Europe. That is the only way that they will ever be able to regain any kind of parity with the executives.
Yeah, and you might as well invite them to commit industrial suicide. The companies and shareholders are going to make money or they will take production overseas since the American consumer really doesn't care where products come from any more. Just how many people Christmas shopping actually took the time to read labels and even make an attempt to buy American made Christmas gifts? The working conditions are mostly a bitchin' point for labor looking for something to throw spears at. EPA, OSHA, Workman' Comp, and the EOC have rules in place to protect workers. Far too many grievances filed today are baseless and come from disgruntled morons that didn't get their way, looked over for promotion for low performance, or have the " somebody done me wrong" attitude. These trivial matters cloud the air for when a REAL problem does come up. In instances like that, labor pushing members to stay coiled up like a snake ready to strike instead of concentrating on their jobs is a detriment to the movement. If the next vote goes no at Boeing and they move production of the 777X away from Washington, the last thing they would want to do is hire any organized labor employees from the old plant. That would be the same as inviting cancer into your body. Start over with people who appreciate their jobs and not the mental level that spend eight hours a day hiding behind the union's apron strings trying to be a pain in company's butt!
Historian

Paducah, KY

#31 Dec 31, 2013
Not true.

Preventing big business from taking the jobs overseas is where the Labor Party political activism comes in. You simply hit them with a huge tariff on the imported goods and, if even better, a huge tax on the profits when they bring those profits back into the USA. There are 1001 ways to penalize a company that goes offshore.
ThomasA

Chelsea, AL

#32 Jan 1, 2014
Historian wrote:
Not true.
Preventing big business from taking the jobs overseas is where the Labor Party political activism comes in. You simply hit them with a huge tariff on the imported goods and, if even better, a huge tax on the profits when they bring those profits back into the USA. There are 1001 ways to penalize a company that goes offshore.
Yeah and you still believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. The blame is on the consumers. If OUR people still believed in the American dream, we would all be driving American brand cars, wearing American shoes and American clothing, buying American furniture, and American electronics and small towns factories that fed larger factories would still be providing jobs and security for the people. FORCING factories to stay here would make about as much sense as forcing Walmart by law to sell only American made products. Ain't gonna happen!!!!!
Historian

Paducah, KY

#33 Jan 2, 2014
Enacting laws that forced Walmart to sell only American made products would be a very good idea. Walmart is chiefly to blame for the closure of many American clothing and shoe factories. It is a beast like nothing the world has ever seen before - a retailer that has the size and power to dictate prices and terms of sale to the producers of the goods that it sells. That is a reversal of the old way, in which large American producers dictated to small retailers. And in its quest for ever lower prices, Walmart dictated prices so low that the goods could not be produced in the USA for its price. So Walmart contracted the work out to horrific sweatshops in Third World countries like Bangladesh. Hell, even Egypt, which has very very low wages, cannot make clothing cheap enough for Walmart.

“Every day, Improve..”

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#34 Jan 13, 2014
Irrespectively of the viewpoints, the short-term perception SHOULD be that we have very good jobs and high-tech remaining in Seattle area. I think the overall concern still remains that the average worker is being shafted and shorted. A solution is hard to imagine the way the global situation is, but the skills and high-tech involved in this is something we got to keep in Seattle area. Not only that, but think of al the other jobs coming OFF this.

Yes, wages for us al need to get better, but still (for the overall Seattle), this was HUGE.
ThomasA

Birmingham, AL

#35 Jan 13, 2014
VeganTiger wrote:
Irrespectively of the viewpoints, the short-term perception SHOULD be that we have very good jobs and high-tech remaining in Seattle area. I think the overall concern still remains that the average worker is being shafted and shorted. A solution is hard to imagine the way the global situation is, but the skills and high-tech involved in this is something we got to keep in Seattle area. Not only that, but think of al the other jobs coming OFF this.
Yes, wages for us al need to get better, but still (for the overall Seattle), this was HUGE.
It also sent a message to other labor choked industries that there are right to work states out there that will move the earth and stars to get them to move there production there. Boeing used it as a wedge and the big bad stand- your- ground no vote people kneeled and voted yes because they finally realized Boeing could actually move production South and there would be no guarantee of people who had "instances" on their work record being able to transfer and get a job. The offers from the states will still be on the table if and when the same strike situation rears it's ugly head in the future. The cod lock was broken.
ThomasA

Birmingham, AL

#36 Jan 13, 2014
Historian wrote:
Enacting laws that forced Walmart to sell only American made products would be a very good idea. Walmart is chiefly to blame for the closure of many American clothing and shoe factories. It is a beast like nothing the world has ever seen before - a retailer that has the size and power to dictate prices and terms of sale to the producers of the goods that it sells. That is a reversal of the old way, in which large American producers dictated to small retailers. And in its quest for ever lower prices, Walmart dictated prices so low that the goods could not be produced in the USA for its price. So Walmart contracted the work out to horrific sweatshops in Third World countries like Bangladesh. Hell, even Egypt, which has very very low wages, cannot make clothing cheap enough for Walmart.
You're pointing the finger of blame in the wrong direction. If you happen to remember when Sam was alive, Walmart pushed" MADE IN THE USA" but the American consumer reached over the domestic and bought imported to save a few pennies. When the domestic sat on the shelf and gathered dust, the purchasing people restocked the shelves with what OUR consumers wanted and the Walmartian mentality was born. We just went through the big sales time for CHINA as our shoppers loaded up on their products made in sweat shops by child and slave labor for our religious holiday that they know nothing about other than the money end of the deal.. We are the cause for our own problems as thousands of ship containers hit out docks every week .

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