Building Permits Ban In Wittmann Area Could Lower Property Values

Peoria has joined the state Attorney General's Office and other cities in suing Maricopa County to force it to stop issuing building permits in areas in and around Wittmann that they claim is critical to Luke Air Force Base. The suit will force the county to comply with a 2004 state law prohibiting cities and counties from issuing building permits in areas affected by the noise of base operations or threatened by possible air crashes. Maricopa County sued Goddard the same day, seeking a judges ruling on the constitutionality of the law. Maricopa county has concerns it might get sued by property owners in rural areas like Wittmann if it stops issuing the permits. The Peoria City Council unanimously voted last week to join forces with the state, Glendale and Surprise is already suing the county over the issuance of building permits in and around a buffer zone near Luke and its auxiliary fields north of the Ford-Volvo Proving Grounds.

[Sam]

sound to me that Surprise and Peoria are crying wolf, so they can expand. so we in Wittmann, Morristown and Circle City cann't! "Surprise have taken over our Trackside Bar"

[Dennis]

Folks dont seem to get too excited about this issue but it is very, very important to many of us in each of the NW cities. If you are in any of the affected areas you will not be granted a permit to do anything. If you own a home and wish to build a pool,wall, patio cover,or repair your damaged home, no permit will be issued. Your home burns down, no rebuilding. How can you sell your home if no one will buy due to the moratorium. If you own land and have sunk all of your savings into it, you will not be able to sell it. YOu lose. We bought with full understanding of the overflight by Luke. We have not complained or tried to change LUke but the law passed in 2004( one year after I bought my home)and now at stake in front of the State, County and courts is perfectly willing to make my investment and my home worthless. If you are going to do this devalueing of my home, then you must buy it at market value. You cannot sit on it indefinitly and lick your lips over your actions that basically screwed up so many of us.

[Phlbrt1]

Not one person that lives in Wittmann has a problem with Luke AFB. To all of us that live in Wittmann to see and here the jets is the sound of FREEDOM this is nothing more than grandstanding by a select few to control growth and stop it and that is bullcrap, I guess we will have to once again put on the boxing gloves !!!!

[ELLIOTT NESS]

Dennis wrote:

Folks dont seem to get too excited about this issue but it is very, very important to many of us in each of the NW cities. If you are in any of the affected areas you will not be granted a permit to do anything. If you own a home and wish to build a pool,wall, patio cover,or repair your damaged home, no permit will be issued. Your home burns down, no rebuilding. How can you sell your home if no one will buy due to the moratorium. If you own land and have sunk all of your savings into it, you will not be able to sell it. YOu lose. We bought with full understanding of the overflight by Luke. We have not complained or tried to change LUke but the law passed in 2004( one year after I bought my home)and now at stake in front of the State, County and courts is perfectly willing to make my investment and my home worthless. If you are going to do this devalueing of my home, then you must buy it at market value. You cannot sit on it indefinitly and lick your lips over your actions that basically screwed up so many of us.

You see their plan don't you. Buy our homes at TODAYS depressed market values. They are going to rush this through before our values go back up.

[ELLIOTT NESS]

Phlbrt1 wrote:

Not one person that lives in Wittmann has a problem with Luke AFB. To all of us that live in Wittmann to see and here the jets is the sound of FREEDOM this is nothing more than grandstanding by a select few to control growth and stop it and that is bullcrap, I guess we will have to once again put on the boxing gloves !!!!

You got that right. Not one of my neighbors has a problem with the overflights at aux 1 and was fully informed of the "noise concerns" and crash potential. The easiest and best solution is to STOP using aux 1. Give it up already. The main base has the greatest concerns, and rightfully so.

[puppy]

Aux 1 is crucial to Luke's Mission. There is a limit to the amount of traffic they can have in their airspace at any given moment. They do utilize all the fields to train their pilots for their various missions. If they move the training for AUX 1 they have to reasorb the training somewhere else. They issue isn't AUX 1. The real issue is poor planning and the resulting reactivenss of our politicians and leaders. The result is a blanket,'one-size-fits-all' law that is as punitive as it is a solution. The cities that want the $ from Luke are pissed at the county for representing the county residents. We can't build but the local citties around Luke keep the $ income from the base. IF this had been thought out there would be A:) Appropriate zoning and buffers in place that would make this all Moot. B:) Zoning that didn't allow ANY residential Building out there at all therefore no one would be neg affected by this. But the reality is the legislation occured midstream and the legislature was REACTIVE as opposed to being PROACTIVE and created their usual mess of things. The zone they are concerned about isn't a heavily populated strip or an all consuming piece of realestate. The solution is very workable if you use common sense and the good nieghbor type of thinking. The cities, state and county need to collaberate a 'win/win' solution instead of the usual politcal BS and posturing.

[elkc]

(I previously posted this same comment on another thread however wanted to share it here for those not following other topix)Consider if you will... Ford moved their prototype engineering from Harley Davidson Test Facility in Florida to the Wittmann Proving Grounds as well they closed the Kingman Proving Ground and moved its operation to Wittmann. The end of the runway to Luke AFB Aux 1 runway ends near a dirt built privacy wall that is at the end of Aux1 runway...on the other side of this privacy wall is a new building where Ford houses its prototype testing teams from November through April, and where Volvo runs a year round prototype testing facility. At any given time their may be 500 or more people working directly at the end of Aux 1's runway where the jets accelerate after using the afterburners to pull down. There does not seem to be a building permit problem when Ford-Volvo wants to add to its operation. A meager home on an acre or more is not as great of target as the working environment at the edge of the runway and Ford's test facility mechanics building. So why isn’t Ford joining in on protesting the building permit ban since it should be as serious of consequence for them as the homeowner in the same flight paths?

[Curious]

I agree with you ELKC. If what you're saying is accurate ( I am not doubting you, I just don't know for myself) it is a great example of the political posturing I am talking about. The potential number of persons at one of these facilities is a far greater density than we already have out here.

[elkc]

Curious wrote:

I agree with you ELKC. If what you're saying is accurate ( I am not doubting you, I just don't know for myself) it is a great example of the political posturing I am talking about. The potential number of persons at one of these facilities is a far greater density than we already have out here.

Thank you Curious…My intentions were to use Fords Mechanics Garage which is just beyond the dirt privacy mound at the end of Aux. 1 (which can be viewed from aerial pictures at a number of internet websites) as an example of why banning building in this zone is not right. The idea that Peoria is suing to keep home and property owners from building thus causing property values to drop, is ironic when during the prime testing times you have 2 F-16's barreling down the "flight corridor" aimed directly at a building (steel fabricated) full of unknowing workers, with the plane being flown in a maneuver that is many more times likely to have negative results as say a jet flying across the sky over a sparse area of homes where the owners may be at home or work during those flight times. There is much more first hand knowledge that I have concerning Ford that is not available from public sources so I don't refer it. You can see clearly from online mapping services the layouts of both the runway and the buildings, so there are no grand privy's being disclosed. Peoria's joining in with other cities to bring a lawsuit against Maricopa County forcing the county to file against the state is ridiculous! Property owners should not be subjected to this type of threat because of a flight zone buffer that can shift to any direction at the governments desire...the flight zone being argued currently is outside much of the 100 year flood plan area,information which again is available online from the county assessor and county treasure websites. We are talking about an area where disclosures should be made to anyone who is currently trying to purchase property. It would appear those existing owners of property should have grandfathered exceptions to their property which doesn’t prevent their property from loosing value or be refunded the difference each time property values increase to off set the loss of invoking such a ban.

[New Wittmann Resident]

I said it before & I'll say it again!

Some of us have Obviously FORGOTTEN about that LAW Napalitano past back in 2004!! & I dont care if Im spelling her name right or not!!!

I EVEN have a COPY of that Law! Yes they have amended it a few times BUT

Doesnt do Peoria or Anyone Else any good to jump on that ship because they KNEW about this Law & didnt bother to Tell Anyone!! And that they were getting some compensation for Luke staying for the past few years!!

Bet you didnt know that did you?¿

The Short Version of this Still STANDING Law:

Permits will be given until such a time that there are issues with it & then it will have to be reviewed and resolved.
If it's not resolved by said time, Luke can pull out.

Which MEANS: IF Nap doesnt pull the permits plug AGAIN like she DID in 2004, Luke will PULL OUT & go to Yuma just as they almost did in 2004!! & Nap & Peoria & everyone else involved LOOSE MONEY!!!!!

Wanna copy?? Let me know & I'll Scan && Email all 74++ pages to you so You can read it!

[elkc]

Governor Napolitano does not have the ability to pass laws she creates herself. She can sign a bill the states legislature sends to her then it becomes a law, and since republicans dominate that process it was they who sent her the bill. I know she signed a bill most landowners didn't like. However Luke's presence in Phoenix-Surprise, Glendale or Peoria, is manipulated by misinformation because the medical services at the base was reduced to a first aid station years ago, most of it's would be officers are in Iraq or in another country with their services directed to Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the only viable attraction for area communities is the Luke AFB Commissary, which is an attraction for retiree's and adds to the reason to spend their retirement in Golf Cart Country. What we do see flying over Yuma and those planes on approach to Aux. 1 are many times pilots in training from other countries “friendly to the U.S.” with lots of their oil money buying planes from a Wichita, Kansas military contractor that is in the Fighter Jet building business. So Luke in Arizona is in effect a training base to foreign interests or the doors would already be nailed shut. They are proposing to stop land owners to protect a runway that is not useable. Has weeds growing through the pavement. They have limited radar and testing equipment but nothing more. They fly over much more populated areas as they rocket through Surprise headed to the main base. So threatening to move the base to Yuma, is dogma because for all practical reasons they have already closed the major needs of a populated base by closing the hospital and moving out the medical professionals which has local medical services now picking up the slack. There are U.S. Military people there but the base as a function is training outpost for allies to send their people in for training. Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City has the capability to operate more efficiently and currently is. Another concern was the rail cars sitting along Grand with jet fuel waiting to be hauled in to Luke, being a threat to Glendale, Surprise and El Mirage, thus the idea comes along to build a rail yard next to an elementary school in Wittmann. I know the law you keep bringing up has everyone touchy because the big fear is loosing Luke, which again I will say has moved much of its vital operations away already. You want to fill housing? You want to have an up turn in the economy? That won't be politically removed? Go to south Texas, New Orleans or Florida right after a hurricane and turn a marketing team loose. You'll relocate people, fill empty real estate and attract employers to a region that isn't constantly being destroyed. During a time that we have a major war taking the lives of thousands the powers that be are threatening closure in the 5th largest metropolitan area while they continue to fly over more heavily populated areas within the surrounding cities without there being much concern. I say let's call their hand and see what kind of cards their holding!

[J W Simms]

Don't bet your ass, these friendly foreign countries are actually friends with the United States. If I had an enemy that was big enough and powerful enough to wipe me out, but on the other hand was stupid enough to teach me and train me in what I needed to know to come back and kick his fucking ass, why, I guess I would be his BEST! friend, until the time was right and that time is coming.

What we have in store for us will make 9/11 look like a little firecracker episode.

By the way elkc, for your information! the US doesn't have any military personnel in Iran, if we did, they would be dead military personnel, Iran is nobody to fuck with. To hell with Luke Air force base and all it's redundant personnel. Your pal J. W. Simms.

[ELLIOTT NESS]

J W Simms wrote:

Don't bet your ass, these friendly foreign countries are actually friends with the United States. If I had an enemy that was big enough and powerful enough to wipe me out, but on the other hand was stupid enough to teach me and train me in what I needed to know to come back and kick his fucking ass, why, I guess I would be his BEST! friend, until the time was right and that time is coming.
What we have in store for us will make 9/11 look like a little firecracker episode.
By the way elkc, for your information! the US doesn't have any military personnel in Iran, if we did, they would be dead military personnel, Iran is nobody to fuck with. To hell with Luke Air force base and all it's redundant personnel. Your pal J. W. Simms.

He didn't say we had military personnel in Iran. He said their services were directed at Iran.
Read his post again.

[Puppy]

While Luke does train foriegn pilots it is still the main training base for American F-16 pilots.

Most of those I know that fly and train at Luke are USAF.

The condition of the runway at Aux 1 is not relevant to it's present day purpose. The Runway is not used for landing it is used to train approaches. Thats why you'll often see two aircraft in formation, the rear aircraft os an instructor teaching the front aircraft (student) proper approach.

[elkc]

Puppy wrote:

While Luke does train foriegn pilots it is still the main training base for American F-16 pilots.
Most of those I know that fly and train at Luke are USAF.
The condition of the runway at Aux 1 is not relevant to it's present day purpose. The Runway is not used for landing it is used to train approaches. Thats why you'll often see two aircraft in formation, the rear aircraft os an instructor teaching the front aircraft (student) proper approach.

Thank you for clarifying Luke’s purpose and inclusion of training of American Pilots. The considerations given were meant to cause readers to ask more questions. Like perhaps the question...Why is it so important to ban building permits in an area that is behind the approach target? Also how can it be justified to have a building full of mechanics at the Ford-Volvo Proving Grounds at the end of the approach target with other buildings planned by Ford for the same area with no building permit issues? The property owners and Luke have previously been able to maintain suitable associations without the inclusion of government control stripping property values especially during these economic times. Luke clearly has the government as a spokesperson and as legal representation however for the individual property owner it appears that information is scarce and there is clearly no representation from officials Federal, State or County.

[Ral]

I would like to add a comment on how it's pretty funny that anytime anyone has an issue with how people keep their properties in Wittmann. For example some people's yard has ton's of garbage, broken down cars, and litter scattered everywhere. If you contact the county about this they instantly turn around and make you the target and start picking apart your property and try to see if they can get you for violations and forget about any of the other issues going on in our area. I just think that it's a way they can make more money without actually having to do "REAL" work and do their job and get after the people that are flat out violating the regulations in place to keep our neighborhood looking respectable. Thanks for hearing me vent. Everyone have a nice day.

[New Wittmanite]

We were told the ban has been lifted due to the angry home owners demanding the value of their homes be paid, and the threat of lawsuite. With the economy crunch and the pheonix area property value down 22%, and the Wittman property value down 33.11%, shown on Cyberhomes.com , Im wondering what more will be done to lower our home values. It is my understanding if Suprise purchases our homes on takeover, they can do so at under market value and we wont have a choice. If the state purchases our homes they have to give market value. Wittman has definately become a politicial issue of recent. Has anyone recently checked into mortgage guidelines outside of Wittman verses Wittman and the areas involved? What about the 6 lane going in on grand to Wickenburg? Anyone with new information on the hold due to the ecomomy crunch? Im sure the people in the right places are still planning and plotting how to get just what they want and where. Ive heard that Suprise will go around wittman and Ive heard that they are the only ones with enough monies to buy Wittman out and thats why Wickenburg will not be able to anex Wittman. Has anyone notices the changes and business going into Wickenburg on 60 of recent?

[Elliot Ness]

We must remain vigilant and keep our eyes and ears open. This is far from over. I don't trust any of them, state, county or Surprise. They don't give a hoot about us. We have no elected representation, we are on our own. And they know it.

[J W Simms]

Elliot Ness wrote:

We must remain vigilant and keep our eyes and ears open. This is far from over. I don't trust any of them, state, county or Surprise. They don't give a hoot about us. We have no elected representation, we are on our own. And they know it.

You betcha buddy, that seems to be the way things are.J. W.

[Elliot Ness]

J W Simms wrote:

<quoted text>You betcha buddy, that seems to be the way things are.J. W.

Buddy? I think right about now you are not calling me buddy.