If ex-felons pay their dues to society, let's give them a chanc...

[Dark Side]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>Thank you very much Dr. Phil. You obviously have the same reading and comprehension problem as the Dark Side. I didn't say I committed a crime by accident. Your wrong also about being sorry I got caught. I'm of the opinion that the experience made me a better person, more determined to succeed. What I am sorry about is the fact that I let myself become involved in the incident at all. See? I blame myself. Now, do you have an answer to my question? If ex-offenders who are trying to make an honest living and stay out of trouble are denied the ability to get gainful employment, what are they to do? Ex-offender Mike Vick is making millions playing football tonight but you want to deny ex-offender Joe Regularguy a chance to make minimum wage? It's a simple question. What do ex-offenders do when no one will give them honest work?

Take any job or work with a temp agency. Cut grass, clean gutters, clean buildings, etc. Its what I did to pay my way through college so if I could do it anyone can. No matter how much they want to blame their felony record for their lack of motivation. There is work to be done you just have to go find it and deal with the limitations you put on yourself by your actions.

[Dark Side]

NonBeliever wrote:

<quoted text>
No one can answer a question when the premise of the question is in error. First, no one is an "ex-offender". The law you break does not become unbroken because you do some jail time watching TV and lifting weights. Second, you are proof that ex-cons CAN get jobs if they are willing to perservere. There is ALWAYS honest work available for people willing to do it. There is no answer to your question because your question is a lie. Oh, and changing your tune doesn't change what you sang before. It is clear that while you were willing to keep pounding the pavement til you got a job, you think they should be handed to other ex-cons. In today's economy, any job available should first be offered to law-abiding citizens. The leftovers are all an ex-con should hope for until he/she has proven their trusworthiness over a long period of time. Rewarding people for bad behavior is just plain stupid. Oh and please stop insulting people's "comprehension". Every poster here who is NOT an ex-con has better comprehension than you do. We understood that breaking the law is stupid and will have a negative effect on our lives. You obviously had to learn that simple lesson the hard way.

Perfectly put!!!

[Va is for Lovers]

There are many different types of felons. You can be considered a felon for just writing a bad check. Does that mean that this person does not deserve a second chance they did not hurt anyone but themselves and are still considered a felon. Just because people make bad decisions doen not mean that they also dont learn from them, that is the whole point of living. Learn from your mistakes to not make them again. However I still believe that some people do not learn and that it what it should be determined by. The consistancy of ones record. Although how many people do you think commit the same crimes that people we consider felons do but just dont get caught. There is no justice in this world, not one person is perfect and who are we to judge others. Personally I believe that noone can change anything our lives are planned out before we live them whether we like it or not.

[EX CON]

Dark Side wrote:

<quoted text>
Take any job or work with a temp agency. Cut grass, clean gutters, clean buildings, etc. Its what I did to pay my way through college so if I could do it anyone can. No matter how much they want to blame their felony record for their lack of motivation. There is work to be done you just have to go find it and deal with the limitations you put on yourself by your actions.

Now you're starting to talk like you have some sense. I started out doing menial jobs and worked my way up. Many ex-offenders are not lacking motivation and need an opportunity to make an honest living. The problem is that society has less problem with hiring illegal aliens than they do with hiring ex-offenders. You are also correct in that by their actions, ex-offenders have put some limitations on themselves. So why would you add more limitations and make them indefinite? I never asked for special treatment, I only asked for a chance. I got my chance because I refused to give up. I now interview, hire, and fire people. I do not disregard individuals simply because they have a record, it is one of many things I consider. At least you've taken a step away from your "no jobs for ex-offenders" attitude. Now you're willing to let them compete with the illegal aliens for lawn care jobs, it's a start. I started digging ditches and breaking up concrete for a plumber. It was honest work. Think we can start to consider better paying positions with better conditions for those who prove they are willing to work hard for an honest wage? There may be hope for you after all.

[EX CON]

NonBeliever wrote:

<quoted text>
No one can answer a question when the premise of the question is in error. First, no one is an "ex-offender". The law you break does not become unbroken because you do some jail time watching TV and lifting weights. Second, you are proof that ex-cons CAN get jobs if they are willing to perservere. There is ALWAYS honest work available for people willing to do it. There is no answer to your question because your question is a lie. Oh, and changing your tune doesn't change what you sang before. It is clear that while you were willing to keep pounding the pavement til you got a job, you think they should be handed to other ex-cons. In today's economy, any job available should first be offered to law-abiding citizens. The leftovers are all an ex-con should hope for until he/she has proven their trusworthiness over a long period of time. Rewarding people for bad behavior is just plain stupid. Oh and please stop insulting people's "comprehension". Every poster here who is NOT an ex-con has better comprehension than you do. We understood that breaking the law is stupid and will have a negative effect on our lives. You obviously had to learn that simple lesson the hard way.

Once again you exhibit a lack of reading comprehension. If you don't want me to mention it, please try to read what I say and not what you would have me say. I have never said that jobs should be "handed to other ex-cons". I never said any such thing nor do I expect it. What I said (I'm typing real slow so you can keep up) is that people shouldn't be disregarded for employment simply because they have a record. Got it this time?

BTW, We didn't have TV and weights were boring. I read and educated myself.

There is one flash of insight in your post. I do try to set an example for other ex-offenders because I know that many of them are WORTH the effort. There are millions of way for a person to get in trouble, not all of them equate to the person being worthless.

[The Always Amazing Al]

Well, ex felons who were convicted of serious sex crimes have 'paid their debt' and should be allowed to fully reintegrate into society?

Or ex felons who brutally beat and rob old people?

Okay by me, as long as they live next door to your children and grandma, but not mine.
Sorry, but their 'payment' means to me that they are free to leave prison. Idiot that I am, I'm not aware that prison makes their inmates better and more responsible people.

[EX CON]

The Always Amazing Al wrote:

Well, ex felons who were convicted of serious sex crimes have 'paid their debt' and should be allowed to fully reintegrate into society?
Or ex felons who brutally beat and rob old people?
Okay by me, as long as they live next door to your children and grandma, but not mine.
Sorry, but their 'payment' means to me that they are free to leave prison. Idiot that I am, I'm not aware that prison makes their inmates better and more responsible people.

No one is saying that every ex-offender (I use the term ex-offender because your crime doesn't need to be a felony to follow you the rest of your life) is reformable. Each person should be considered as an individual. Even those who have been convicted of very serious crimes should be given a chance after paying their dues. Repeat offenders and sex offenders are another story. Those who have transgressed once and are trying to get their lives back on the right track are the ones we can help the most. Whether the prison experience improves or ruins a person depends entirely on that individual person. You are practicing a form of bigotry if you lump all ex-offenders into the same category. Are you willing to say that ALL Muslims are terrorists? Are you willing to say that ALL black people are criminals? Are you willing to say that ALL white people are racist? Are you willing to say the ALL Hispanics are here illegally? What you are saying is that ALL ex-offenders are dangerous and worthless. Think about it, how can you expect a person to reform if there is no light at the end of the tunnel? The next time you hear about a first time offender who got out and became a repeat offender, ask yourself if it could have been avoided by simply giving that individual a chance to do right. No one is asking for special status, just a chance. You may be surprised at how many will make good on that chance and no longer be a burden to society as a prisoner or welfare recipient. I stepped in sh*t once. I cleaned my boots off and made a mental note not to step in it again. There are many others like me, those who screwed up once and aren't really interested in doing so again. I'm saying take a look at the individual as a whole, the record is only one facet of many.

[The Always Amazing Al]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>No one is saying that every ex-offender (I use the term ex-offender because your crime doesn't need to be a felony to follow you the rest of your life) is reformable. Each person should be considered as an individual. Even those who have been convicted of very serious crimes should be given a chance after paying their dues. Repeat offenders and sex offenders are another story. Those who have transgressed once and are trying to get their lives back on the right track are the ones we can help the most. Whether the prison experience improves or ruins a person depends entirely on that individual person. You are practicing a form of bigotry if you lump all ex-offenders into the same category. Are you willing to say that ALL Muslims are terrorists? Are you willing to say that ALL black people are criminals? Are you willing to say that ALL white people are racist? Are you willing to say the ALL Hispanics are here illegally? What you are saying is that ALL ex-offenders are dangerous and worthless. Think about it, how can you expect a person to reform if there is no light at the end of the tunnel? The next time you hear about a first time offender who got out and became a repeat offender, ask yourself if it could have been avoided by simply giving that individual a chance to do right. No one is asking for special status, just a chance. You may be surprised at how many will make good on that chance and no longer be a burden to society as a prisoner or welfare recipient. I stepped in sh*t once. I cleaned my boots off and made a mental note not to step in it again. There are many others like me, those who screwed up once and aren't really interested in doing so again. I'm saying take a look at the individual as a whole, the record is only one facet of many.

I totally agree with you.(Even though my last post might imply otherwise) If we are not to give some kind of opportunity to those who've been convicted of felonies, we guarantee their recidivism.(Everyone loses!)
We can't treat all as pariahs, or as reformed either. As you say, we must give treat them as individuals and have processes which, tailored to each, gives each a shot at regaining our trust, and becoming the person his/her parents wanted him to be.

[Peste]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>No one is saying that every ex-offender (I use the term ex-offender because your crime doesn't need to be a felony to follow you the rest of your life) is reformable. Each person should be considered as an individual. Even those who have been convicted of very serious crimes should be given a chance after paying their dues. Repeat offenders and sex offenders are another story. Those who have transgressed once and are trying to get their lives back on the right track are the ones we can help the most. Whether the prison experience improves or ruins a person depends entirely on that individual person. You are practicing a form of bigotry if you lump all ex-offenders into the same category. Are you willing to say that ALL Muslims are terrorists? Are you willing to say that ALL black people are criminals? Are you willing to say that ALL white people are racist? Are you willing to say the ALL Hispanics are here illegally? What you are saying is that ALL ex-offenders are dangerous and worthless. Think about it, how can you expect a person to reform if there is no light at the end of the tunnel? The next time you hear about a first time offender who got out and became a repeat offender, ask yourself if it could have been avoided by simply giving that individual a chance to do right. No one is asking for special status, just a chance. You may be surprised at how many will make good on that chance and no longer be a burden to society as a prisoner or welfare recipient. I stepped in sh*t once. I cleaned my boots off and made a mental note not to step in it again. There are many others like me, those who screwed up once and aren't really interested in doing so again. I'm saying take a look at the individual as a whole, the record is only one facet of many.

Are you eligible to get your conviction expunged? More and more states are doing that but I believe that there are restrictions (Non violent, no sex crimes I think) and I'd say that there is some some of petition or request that you have to make.
I agree that employers should look at what that the conviction was for and how many convictions etc. before making an automatic judgement.

[EX CON]

Peste wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you eligible to get your conviction expunged? More and more states are doing that but I believe that there are restrictions (Non violent, no sex crimes I think) and I'd say that there is some some of petition or request that you have to make.
I agree that employers should look at what that the conviction was for and how many convictions etc. before making an automatic judgement.

Don't know if I'm eligible to have my record expunged, never tried. As I understand it here in the state of MD there is no official criteria, it's entirely up to the Governor like a pardon. I guess I could have my lawyer look into it, but after all the years I've dealt with it, it almost doesn't matter anymore. I think I'd ask the Gov. to give my share of his consideration to a younger person who needs it more, someone with a young family and a desire to do right.

BTW, thank you for your opinion. I wish more people thought as you do.

[EX CON]

The Always Amazing Al wrote:

<quoted text>
I totally agree with you.(Even though my last post might imply otherwise) If we are not to give some kind of opportunity to those who've been convicted of felonies, we guarantee their recidivism.(Everyone loses!)
We can't treat all as pariahs, or as reformed either. As you say, we must give treat them as individuals and have processes which, tailored to each, gives each a shot at regaining our trust, and becoming the person his/her parents wanted him to be.

Thank you. I'm glad you can see the logic and truth in what I say. I wish more people would follow suit and give ex-offenders a chance. Anyone can screw up but it takes real character to pick yourself up and go straight. When you see that character in someone, encourage it.

[Dark Side]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>Now you're starting to talk like you have some sense. I started out doing menial jobs and worked my way up. Many ex-offenders are not lacking motivation and need an opportunity to make an honest living. The problem is that society has less problem with hiring illegal aliens than they do with hiring ex-offenders. You are also correct in that by their actions, ex-offenders have put some limitations on themselves. So why would you add more limitations and make them indefinite? I never asked for special treatment, I only asked for a chance. I got my chance because I refused to give up. I now interview, hire, and fire people. I do not disregard individuals simply because they have a record, it is one of many things I consider. At least you've taken a step away from your "no jobs for ex-offenders" attitude. Now you're willing to let them compete with the illegal aliens for lawn care jobs, it's a start. I started digging ditches and breaking up concrete for a plumber. It was honest work. Think we can start to consider better paying positions with better conditions for those who prove they are willing to work hard for an honest wage? There may be hope for you after all.

How about you start talking with some sense. You are asking for special treatment though you say you aren't. And there is no such thing as an "ex-offender" you did the crime you have to deal with the consequences. You can't kill someone and not be a murder. That's like asking a zebra to change his stripes he can't. You commit the crime you deal with the social ramifications. Once you realize criminals don't deserve special treatment there may be hope for you.

[EX CON]

Dark Side wrote:

<quoted text>
How about you start talking with some sense. You are asking for special treatment though you say you aren't. And there is no such thing as an "ex-offender" you did the crime you have to deal with the consequences. You can't kill someone and not be a murder. That's like asking a zebra to change his stripes he can't. You commit the crime you deal with the social ramifications. Once you realize criminals don't deserve special treatment there may be hope for you.

Now you're going to tell me what I want? With all due respect, show me where I asked for special treatment. I didn't even ask for an even break. What I asked is that people not be disregarded for employment solely on the basis of having a record. Dang it! For a minute there I thought you'd grasped the concept. Gotta' be careful with those social ramifications, sometimes they say more about the ills of the society than those of the individual.

[Dark Side]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>
Now you're going to tell me what I want? With all due respect, show me where I asked for special treatment. I didn't even ask for an even break. What I asked is that people not be disregarded for employment solely on the basis of having a record. Dang it! For a minute there I thought you'd grasped the concept. Gotta' be careful with those social ramifications, sometimes they say more about the ills of the society than those of the individual.

What concept? Please give me something over someone else who has done nothing wrong? If it comes down to you, the criminal, or a law abiding citizen being up the job, it goes to the law abiding citizen. Tough. You live with what you have done. If the criminal doesn't like it they should have thought about that before doing the crime. The criminals ARE THE ILLS OF THE SOCIETY. If we used the death penalty more then we should have less of them to deal with and we would all be better off.

[White chuch lady]

obama will see to it you will all be treated like felons some day get prepared.

[EX CON]

Dark Side wrote:

<quoted text>
What concept? Please give me something over someone else who has done nothing wrong? If it comes down to you, the criminal, or a law abiding citizen being up the job, it goes to the law abiding citizen. Tough. You live with what you have done. If the criminal doesn't like it they should have thought about that before doing the crime. The criminals ARE THE ILLS OF THE SOCIETY. If we used the death penalty more then we should have less of them to deal with and we would all be better off.

You really don't listen to what people say to you. Do you? I have never said that anyone should be deprived of a job in favor of an ex-offender simply because he is an ex-offender. Please show me where I said anything even close to that. What I said (pay attention now) is that a person should not be disregarded for employment solely on the basis of having a record. It's a very straight forward statement with no hidden meanings.

[Dark Side]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>You really don't listen to what people say to you. Do you? I have never said that anyone should be deprived of a job in favor of an ex-offender simply because he is an ex-offender. Please show me where I said anything even close to that. What I said (pay attention now) is that a person should not be disregarded for employment solely on the basis of having a record. It's a very straight forward statement with no hidden meanings.

No I've been listening. Sad thing is this a part of what is the extreme left wing problem with this country, not holding people accountable for the actions and just forgiving without making sure they have learned the lesson that what they did will not be tolerated in a civilized society. I'm all for giving people second chances but you have to live with the consequences of your actions and work your ass off to get that chance and it will not come easy. Reread your posts, you are coming off that you are asking society to give and give to them without them having to pay for their actions. Sorry it doesn't end after they serve their time in jail. If it did no one would learn anything by having a roof over their heads and 3 squares a day with no responsibilities and all the cable television to watch and free work out equipment. How is that punishment?

[EX CON]

Dark Side wrote:

<quoted text>
No I've been listening. Sad thing is this a part of what is the extreme left wing problem with this country, not holding people accountable for the actions and just forgiving without making sure they have learned the lesson that what they did will not be tolerated in a civilized society. I'm all for giving people second chances but you have to live with the consequences of your actions and work your ass off to get that chance and it will not come easy. Reread your posts, you are coming off that you are asking society to give and give to them without them having to pay for their actions. Sorry it doesn't end after they serve their time in jail. If it did no one would learn anything by having a roof over their heads and 3 squares a day with no responsibilities and all the cable television to watch and free work out equipment. How is that punishment?

I don't know how many way I need to say this to you but I'll give it another try. I had to work twice as hard as a non-offender for every advance I've mad in the years since I finished paying my debt to society. I'm not complaining, simply stating a fact. You reread my posts, I have repeatedly stated that the ex-offenders I'm talking about are the ones who've paid their dues and are trying to work their way back into a respectable life. You say you're all for giving people a second chance, when? I've been a law abiding citizen for more years than the number of years I had been alive at the time of my offense. I was 18 and that was 40 years ago. Will you finally give me some respect when they're shoveling dirt on to my coffin? The only thing I've asked people to give an ex-offender is a look past the record. All I've asked for employers to give anyone is a chance to work. Giving someone a chance speaks volumes about the giver. What the individual ex-offender does with that chance will define him. I have a serious problem with recidivism and would like to see society reduce the rate at which it occurs by letting those who show a true desire to reform have a chance to do so.

[Angel]

Dan wrote:

Some of you write some idiotic comments and some of you probably know the problems with finding a job from being an ex felon. I committed a crime in 1986, went on the run for two years, got caught in 1988. I did five years, end of determined sentence. I've been out since 1993 and haven't been back. I have a high school diploma, an Associate Degree in Business and am currenty working on another Associate in Information Services & Support. I will complete spring 2009. I have been paying for my education through financial aid and student loans.
I haven't had a job for three years. No one wants to hire me. I'll take that back. I can get a job at a local factory if I get experience from the local Job & Family Services, who wont give me the training I need because I have a CDL, which in turn, I can't get a driving job because I'm an ex felon and those stupid terrorists back on 9/11.
I'm actually a nice guy but the retention against me and others like me in finding meaningful, gainful employment, is nil.
The only step I have is to totally change my identity. It can be done by ruining my great credit score of 715, having someone steal my SSN and credit card info, and just wreck havoc. I can then go get a new name and SSN and start over. Back ground checks do not check previous identities, lol.
I wont be back on this form, I surfed in. If you post a good comment, I'll feel the vibe, negative comments, you'll just be talking to yourself and the rest of the idiots that think like you do.

You realize that in the current market, the supply of available workers exceeds demand. This means, of course, many people who have a Bachelor's degree and no criminal record are also struggling to find "meaningful, gainful employment." In fact, reports indicate that many of these job candidates are going on eight interviews to compete for one job. All other things being equal, employers will hire the person who not only has the most to offer in education and skill sets, but also who has demonstrated character traits they value.(Because the belief is past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior.) This does put you at a disadvanatage --but it does not make you particularly unique. The fact is many would've liked to have had the time or the money to pursue an education, but could not because they had other commitments. Then there are those who weren't blessed with an abundance of talents or a particularly high IQ.(Life isn't fair.)
Railing against this isn't going to make your circumstances better. Attitude will help. You could also invent something others find particularly valuable or start a business of sorts in your garage.(Start thinking of what you can do to accomplish your goals instead of focusing on the negative. Develop faith that God has a purpose for you.) And good luck/

[Pat-Canada]

EX CON wrote:

<quoted text>I don't know how many way I need to say this to you but I'll give it another try. I had to work twice as hard as a non-offender for every advance I've mad in the years since I finished paying my debt to society. I'm not complaining, simply stating a fact. You reread my posts, I have repeatedly stated that the ex-offenders I'm talking about are the ones who've paid their dues and are trying to work their way back into a respectable life. You say you're all for giving people a second chance, when? I've been a law abiding citizen for more years than the number of years I had been alive at the time of my offense. I was 18 and that was 40 years ago. Will you finally give me some respect when they're shoveling dirt on to my coffin? The only thing I've asked people to give an ex-offender is a look past the record. All I've asked for employers to give anyone is a chance to work. Giving someone a chance speaks volumes about the giver. What the individual ex-offender does with that chance will define him. I have a serious problem with recidivism and would like to see society reduce the rate at which it occurs by letting those who show a true desire to reform have a chance to do so.

Nothing you say to dark side will sink in. His/her opinion is his/her own. Discrimination does not only apply to the colour of ones skin.
I appreciate your way of thinking. Non-violent offenders do deserve a second chance. A record will follow a person for their life, for a lot of cases, one stupid mistake.
Many employers do give someone a second chance.
cheers to you