Sweat lodge manslaughter trial begins

Sweat lodge manslaughter trial begins

There are 15 comments on the CNN story from Mar 1, 2011, titled Sweat lodge manslaughter trial begins. In it, CNN reports that:

Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, New York, and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, died on October 8. Lizbeth Marie Neuman, 49, of Prior Lake, Minnesota, died on October 17.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CNN.

woman

Houston, TX

#1 Mar 1, 2011
Native American people have been warning people to stop playing with and exploiting their ways. After reading this, laws need to be put into place to prevent people like this from continuing. It is a spiritual violation to charge anyone like that, these ways are sacred,linking the natural and spiritual world. Common sense tells you not to overheat and a lodge that big is unheard of. These ways were given to the Indian people to take care of. People like this turn it into their own cult. Yes it sounds like a cult. It was manslaughter, misleading inexperienced and vulnerable people. The law, both white, and Indian, need to restrict abuse of native american spiritual healing ceremonies. There are things that non-Indian, non-tribal people do not understand, and this is one of them. It was not a trajic accident. It was abuse of the sacred for thre purpose of money and prestige. Misrepresentation. Make the law for misrepresentation of Native American way and this kind of shock can't continue to flourish.
Ken

The Pas, Canada

#2 Mar 2, 2011
At the very least Mr. Ray had too many people in the quasi sweat lodge. He,and his employees, were clearly not able to identify that people were in distress or there were just too many to watch. Of course one makes bigger bucks by serving bigger crowds.

If Mr. Ray believed in the purification aspect of a sweatlodge he also probably knew that elders ( which he emulated) would not charge for a sweatlodge.

If one travels a distance etc to participate or help out they may be given a reasonable honorarium.

“FED UP WITH TOPIX”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#3 Mar 2, 2011
You'd think the people who died would have had enough sense to get out of the lodge when they felt ill, dizzy, whatever... But I guess not. This guy isn't guilty, the deaths were an accident, a retarded accident but hey who said people were smart to begin with?

“Indigenous”

Since: Feb 11

Sacred Land

#4 Mar 2, 2011
In my opinion he was just out to make money. It's a shame people had to die like that. Also from my personal experience they had too much people in that sweet lodge. He's just another fraud out to make a quick buck. I hope he's found guilty.
Ken

Brandon, Canada

#5 Mar 3, 2011
It is an accident if a vehicle's brakes fail without warning or being in need of regular maintenance and it comes careening down a hill hitting many vehicles.

It is not an accident when one professes to be an expert in spiritual practices, should then be well versed with the potential implications, hires others to assist him in his 'business', ignores people clearly having distress ( as noted by other participants), has given the participants instructions that conflict with what is normal and what is not in intense heat,collects money for a bastardized form of sweat etc.

A handful died but a great many were sick and did manage to get out either by themselves or with assistance from people around them. The dehydration process works much faster on some than others.Real elders keep the heat at a pitch that they know will not likely do their participants harm. If they have newcomers they don't make the sweat excessive, they use fewer rocks and keep new people closer to the door and have an assistant that would guide them out if they had trouble. That doesn't happen every time because forethought goes into it.

If you can't stand up to leave it isn't as simple as "get out" unless you were being observed to heat exhaustion and someone else takes you.

Yes, who said people were smart. If they are to blame for anything it is in looking for someone to lead them to healthful practices and landing with a charlatan. You know, for believing in others.
LiddySays wrote:
You'd think the people who died would have had enough sense to get out of the lodge when they felt ill, dizzy, whatever... But I guess not. This guy isn't guilty, the deaths were an accident, a retarded accident but hey who said people were smart to begin with?

“FED UP WITH TOPIX”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#6 Mar 3, 2011
Ken wrote:
It is an accident if a vehicle's brakes fail without warning or being in need of regular maintenance and it comes careening down a hill hitting many vehicles.
It is not an accident when one professes to be an expert in spiritual practices, should then be well versed with the potential implications, hires others to assist him in his 'business', ignores people clearly having distress ( as noted by other participants), has given the participants instructions that conflict with what is normal and what is not in intense heat,collects money for a bastardized form of sweat etc.
A handful died but a great many were sick and did manage to get out either by themselves or with assistance from people around them. The dehydration process works much faster on some than others.Real elders keep the heat at a pitch that they know will not likely do their participants harm. If they have newcomers they don't make the sweat excessive, they use fewer rocks and keep new people closer to the door and have an assistant that would guide them out if they had trouble. That doesn't happen every time because forethought goes into it.
If you can't stand up to leave it isn't as simple as "get out" unless you were being observed to heat exhaustion and someone else takes you.
Yes, who said people were smart. If they are to blame for anything it is in looking for someone to lead them to healthful practices and landing with a charlatan. You know, for believing in others.
<quoted text>
Oh STFU with your novel of a comment. I read the first three words and that's all I needed to determine you're a f__king idiot. The deaths were accidental. No one forced them to go into the sweat lodge, and no one physically harmed them. Their bodies couldn't handle the situation they willingly put themselves in and they croaked, no ones fault, shit happens.
Ken

Winnipeg, Canada

#7 Mar 4, 2011
I might buy that if only one person had been harmed and there wasn't a history of serious problems at other sweats offered by this individual.Personally, I have never heard of a person dying from a traditional elder run sweat. That is not to say it hasn't or couldn't have happened just that this guy is getting a lot more press and not just with this incident.
With language like yours it is clear that you are a hothead and react like one.
LiddySays wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh STFU with your novel of a comment. I read the first three words and that's all I needed to determine you're a f__king idiot. The deaths were accidental. No one forced them to go into the sweat lodge, and no one physically harmed them. Their bodies couldn't handle the situation they willingly put themselves in and they croaked, no ones fault, shit happens.

“FED UP WITH TOPIX”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#8 Mar 4, 2011
Ken wrote:
I might buy that if only one person had been harmed and there wasn't a history of serious problems at other sweats offered by this individual.Personally, I have never heard of a person dying from a traditional elder run sweat. That is not to say it hasn't or couldn't have happened just that this guy is getting a lot more press and not just with this incident.
With language like yours it is clear that you are a hothead and react like one.
<quoted text>
People are stupid, what can I say. And no I'm not a hothead, I swear so sue me.
Ken

Winnipeg, Canada

#9 Mar 5, 2011
Excuse me, rude and uncouth would have been a better description. My experience of people who spring into action trying to drive their point home with a derogatory attitude and that type of language is that they are chronically angry.I had done nothing to you prior to that post and within it only shared an opinion. The wick must be short. I would have possibly enjoyed a bit of debate with you had you wanted to achieve anything other than attempting to establish their position in a coarse manner.
I would concede that both of us just come to this place with an opinion and a right to state it. My point was that how that occurs says a great deal and the current post is as hostile as the first.
People are stupid,suing, really..........
Is that the voice of intelligence speaking?
Tell me why my position is so far out as to be wrong. Discuss the circumstances and with respect to a legal case as opposed to just an opinion. Let's see if we can hammer out some understanding.Otherwise I will just acknowledge that you had more releasing to do and move along happily.
LiddySays wrote:
<quoted text>
People are stupid, what can I say. And no I'm not a hothead, I swear so sue me.

“FED UP WITH TOPIX”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#10 Mar 5, 2011
Ken wrote:
Excuse me, rude and uncouth would have been a better description. My experience of people who spring into action trying to drive their point home with a derogatory attitude and that type of language is that they are chronically angry.I had done nothing to you prior to that post and within it only shared an opinion. The wick must be short. I would have possibly enjoyed a bit of debate with you had you wanted to achieve anything other than attempting to establish their position in a coarse manner.
I would concede that both of us just come to this place with an opinion and a right to state it. My point was that how that occurs says a great deal and the current post is as hostile as the first.
People are stupid,suing, really..........
Is that the voice of intelligence speaking?
Tell me why my position is so far out as to be wrong. Discuss the circumstances and with respect to a legal case as opposed to just an opinion. Let's see if we can hammer out some understanding.Otherwise I will just acknowledge that you had more releasing to do and move along happily.
<quoted text>
How this for rude and uncouth? Take your opinion and shove it up your smelly ass.=D
Ken

Winnipeg, Canada

#11 Mar 5, 2011
Really happily.
Skindian

United States

#12 Mar 5, 2011
You figure they would be more then two posters on this thread. But of course their isn't. Yep....

“FED UP WITH TOPIX”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#13 Mar 5, 2011
Skindian wrote:
You figure they would be more then two posters on this thread. But of course their isn't. Yep....
lol
Skindian

United States

#14 Mar 5, 2011
LiddySays wrote:
<quoted text>
lol
Get it out of you're system.
Ken

Winnipeg, Canada

#15 Mar 6, 2011
Yes, it must be tedious for others, I apologize.
Skindian wrote:
You figure they would be more then two posters on this thread. But of course their isn't. Yep....

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