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“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

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#45
Feb 9, 2013
 

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The hippocratic oath is nice but meaningless. It's a codification of basic ethics but not legally binding in any way.

The art of medicine oesn't involve insanity--although the elbow-leg rhetorical example you give actually DOES reflect certain procedures, not often used today, to keep tissue alive by grafting one portion of tissue to another with a healthier blood supply.

Any patient can ask for a copy of a waiver; they are pretty standard and most offices buy them by the carton, filling in any personal info required. One's personal physician probably uses the same forms, and any decent lawyer already knows what needs to be in there. However, the form MUST be signed the day of the procedure.

It took you a year to come up with this pathetic response, and I'M the moron? Sorry, but no.
Nate wrote:
<quoted text>
Your thinking is immoral, or you're a plastic surgeon, which pretty much amounts to same thing. The versions of the Hippocratic Oath differ in style of language, not in content or purpose. Violation of the "do no harm" precept doesn't require that you do the harm on purpose; being reckless or careless is enough. I'm glad you refer to the antiquity of the Hippocratic Oath, because in that case there's another term just as ancient that you plastic surgeons never fail to invoke whenever you screw up: "Art." Whenever you butcher someone the first thing you do is take refuge behind the murky ambiguity of a phrase "art" or "healing art". You could sew a person's elbows to his knees and get away with it by claiming that to be a function of your "art", or lack thereof. I'll tell you how to reduce plastic surgery disasters. Instead of the plastic surgeon waiting until the day of the surgery to show the patient the informed consent--moments before they're led into the operating room--require him to give it to the patient with enough time in advance to have the patient's primary care doctor and family lawyer review it. I know I called you a plastic surgeon. Did I call you a moron? I intended to.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

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#46
Feb 9, 2013
 

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What patients think about the oath is irrelevant; they contract with the doctor to provide a service--their area of medicine is also irrelevant. As I noted before, many doctors never took the oath and aren't required to.

Do you always whine like this?
Nate wrote:
<quoted text>
That's valuable information, cpeter. You're a helluva guy to straighten us out on this. Patients need to know that everything they've ever believed about goodness and relevance of the Hippocratic Oath--at least from the plastic surgeon's point of view--is mistaken. I suggest the first sentence of every informed consent form therefore read, "The Hippocratic Oath is bullshit." Tell us, we know you're an MD, but are you a DMD, too? You're thinking indicates that this might be the case.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

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#47
Feb 9, 2013
 

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What...are you in line for some money if a court doesn't consider depression to be a major factor or something?
Nate wrote:
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Your remark is insulting to people like Lucille. People like you who self-righteously sniff about depression being the only cause, or the main cause, or the ultimate cause, or even the proximate cause, of a suicide have never lived with severe, chronic, debilitating pain. Do yourself, and us, a favor. Before you say anything else that's stupid, go to Netflix, or maybe Youtube, and rent a movie called "The Suicide Tourist." If this movie doesn't make you reconsider your opinion, then just wait. Life eventually will.
Rich Bergeron

Laconia, NH

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#48
Feb 10, 2013
 

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cpeter1313 wrote:
What patients think about the oath is irrelevant; they contract with the doctor to provide a service--their area of medicine is also irrelevant. As I noted before, many doctors never took the oath and aren't required to.
Do you always whine like this?
<quoted text>
Whether doctors are "required to" take the oath or not is not really the point. The fact is physicians should strive to follow it if they truly care about medicine and are in the field for the right reasons.

Your attitude in this thread reflects a general disdain For anyone who would complain about experiencing a horrible outcome from a plastic surgery procedure. You also seem to downplay the idea that doctors should be held responsible for such outcomes, even those that are debilitating and often disabling.

I wonder if you've ever had a family member die too early because of a doctor's dumb mistake or a series of stupid mistakes. If you watched the recent debut of a TNT show called "Monday Mornings" (
) maybe you would realize that serious medical mistakes may be a fact of life and inevitable, but that does not mean they are not preventable and doctors and patients should just shrug them off when they occur. Good doctors care enough about human life to try to confront and learn from their worst mistakes so as not to repeat them. Any doctor who minimizes injuring a patient and chalks it up to the idea that every patient responds differently to treatments and procedures is a doctor who doesn't belong in the profession.

As far as your points about elective surgery, Lucille would have been the first person to tell potential plastic surgery patients not to bother. She was a cheerleader for plastic surgery before the Eppley procedure went so horribly wrong, but the damage done to her changed her whole perspective. She realized that she probably shouldn't have tried to change her appearance in the first place, but that doesn't mean Dr. Eppley is somehow infallible or immune from being blamed for the results of a botched procedure he could have and should have done better.

If you knew as much as I do about the case, you'd know that Eppley had to know from the start that he would be at fault for a bad outcome. For one, there was no qualified anesthesiologist present, and Lucille posted evidence of this on her site. The anesthesiologist Eppley claimed was there that day sent Lucille a signed letter affirming he wasn't even in the building. Eppley most likely did the anesthesiology himself or had someone else who was not qualified perform that step. Many of Lucille's post-operative symptoms are often caused by improperly administered anesthesia.

Also, you act as if you know that Lucille was not really seriously injured in this case. I witnessed her struggle through daily tasks most of us take for granted. She could not possibly fake the condition I witnessed her deal with each and every day of her life, and her medical issues were serious. She was not just upset that she didn't look good after the operation. She had pain, ringing in her ears, trouble breathing, and serious issues with swallowing.

I don't know why you think you know everything about this case and the medical field in general, but I suggest you do some real research before you post again about a subject you could stand to learn a lot more about. If you really are an MD, I hope your patients know you have such a poor attitude about doctors being accountable for their mistakes.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

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#49
Feb 10, 2013
 

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The best surgeons in the best hospitals lose patients.

Why should someone strive to follow an oath they haven't taken?

Malpractice should be taken seriously, but so should patients take possible consequences seriously. I worked in the medical field for over a decade; some patients think waivers are just meaningless forms . They aren't, and for good reason. Sometimes, things go horribly wrong for completely unknown reasons. You berate me for thinking I know everything about medicine, but you are doing the same thing.
Rich Bergeron wrote:
<quoted text>
Whether doctors are "required to" take the oath or not is not really the point. The fact is physicians should strive to follow it if they truly care about medicine and are in the field for the right reasons.
Your attitude in this thread reflects a general disdain For anyone who would complain about experiencing a horrible outcome from a plastic surgery procedure. You also seem to downplay the idea that doctors should be held responsible for such outcomes, even those that are debilitating and often disabling.
I wonder if you've ever had a family member die too early because of a doctor's dumb mistake or a series of stupid mistakes. If you watched the recent debut of a TNT show called "Monday Mornings" (http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=ZIHzs6LijhQXX) maybe you would realize that serious medical mistakes may be a fact of life and inevitable, but that does not mean they are not preventable and doctors and patients should just shrug them off when they occur. Good doctors care enough about human life to try to confront and learn from their worst mistakes so as not to repeat them. Any doctor who minimizes injuring a patient and chalks it up to the idea that every patient responds differently to treatments and procedures is a doctor who doesn't belong in the profession.
As far as your points about elective surgery, Lucille would have been the first person to tell potential plastic surgery patients not to bother. She was a cheerleader for plastic surgery before the Eppley procedure went so horribly wrong, but the damage done to her changed her whole perspective. She realized that she probably shouldn't have tried to change her appearance in the first place, but that doesn't mean Dr. Eppley is somehow infallible or immune from being blamed for the results of a botched procedure he could have and should have done better.
If you knew as much as I do about the case, you'd know that Eppley had to know from the start that he would be at fault for a bad outcome. For one, there was no qualified anesthesiologist present, and Lucille posted evidence of this on her site. The anesthesiologist Eppley claimed was there that day sent Lucille a signed letter affirming he wasn't even in the building. Eppley most likely did the anesthesiology himself or had someone else who was not qualified perform that step. Many of Lucille's post-operative symptoms are often caused by improperly administered anesthesia.
Also, you act as if you know that Lucille was not really seriously injured in this case. I witnessed her struggle through daily tasks most of us take for granted. She could not possibly fake the condition I witnessed her deal with each and every day of her life, and her medical issues were serious. She was not just upset that she didn't look good after the operation. She had pain, ringing in her ears, trouble breathing, and serious issues with swallowing.
I don't know why you think you know everything about this case and the medical field in general, but I suggest you do some real research before you post again about a subject you could stand to learn a lot more about. If you really are an MD, I hope your patients know you have such a poor attitude about doctors being accountable for their mistakes.
Rich Bergeron

Laconia, NH

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#50
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Nowhere in my last post did I pretend to know everything about the medical field. This thread is supposed to be about plastic surgery victims, and you've loaded it up with useless and argumentative material about the medical profession in general. You paint a gloomy picture of doctors and act as if it's no big deal when someone dies or is seriously injured by a trained physician's worst mistakes. It is a big deal. I lost my mother to medical negligence when I was just 6 years old, and your comments here are offensive and insensitive to people like me who really know what it's like when a doctor's ego costs a loved one their life.

We're not talking about unpreventable accidents here. I do realize the best doctors mess up every now and then. What this thread is specifically designed for is to discuss victims of negligence and malpractice, not freak accidents. It seems you are trying to argue that a doctor's mistake is only relevant if he makes it on purpose. As for why a doctor should strive to follow an oath they haven't taken, it's the same reason as why people who aren't Catholic or Christian who follow the Ten Commandments. It's just the right thing to do.

I wonder how many other threads have you hijacked with your 35,000 plus comments here. How many other people did you go out of your way to piss off and denigrate with what you think is such a special opinion you feel some need to share so much? It's callous people like you who are really poisoning the medical profession. I feel sorry for anyone who was under your care during your more than a decade in the field. You know, there's a reason they call it Health "CARE."

You've also jumped to some ignorant conclusions about Lucille's case, and your constant focus on waivers is beside the point. Just because you signed a waiver before a surgery does not mean you should not be considered a victim if something goes wrong.

Women are under a whole different level of scrutiny than men are. You obviously have no idea about what drives them to seek plastic surgery. Society doesn't drive people to look better just to attract members of the opposite sex. Women in particular often get plastic surgery because there is tremendous pressure on them to look their best. Sometimes a woman's looks and physique actually helps in getting better opportunities in life. Attractive people really do get all the best breaks in life in many cases. It's a fact of life, and while some people can deal with it, others choose to take the opportunity to do whatever they can to become as attractive as possible. They should not be demonized for that choice. I understand if someone is getting a procedure every other week or month, but your comments here seem to argue everyone who gets any kind of cosmetic procedure is just vain and stupid.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

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#51
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Fucwit, this thread was dead for a year; I didn't hijack anything. I didn't revive it.

You still blame doctors when things go wrong, refusing to believe/accept that sometimes it just comes down to the individual patient's biology. That's peachy, but it's wrong. That's true of any medical field.

A fact of life is that doctors are human. Can they make mistakes? Of course. But until they invent perfect robotic surgeons, we're all going to have to accept that. If you expect perfection, you'd best be perfect yourself.

I'm not a christian and the 10 commandments are meaningless.

Don't want to take a risk? Don't have elective and/or vanity surgery. The waiver exists precisely because the results of surgery CANNOT be guaranteed. You can rationalize vanity surgery all you want, but it's unnecessary and completely avoidable.
Rich Bergeron wrote:
Nowhere in my last post did I pretend to know everything about the medical field. This thread is supposed to be about plastic surgery victims, and you've loaded it up with useless and argumentative material about the medical profession in general. You paint a gloomy picture of doctors and act as if it's no big deal when someone dies or is seriously injured by a trained physician's worst mistakes. It is a big deal. I lost my mother to medical negligence when I was just 6 years old, and your comments here are offensive and insensitive to people like me who really know what it's like when a doctor's ego costs a loved one their life.
We're not talking about unpreventable accidents here. I do realize the best doctors mess up every now and then. What this thread is specifically designed for is to discuss victims of negligence and malpractice, not freak accidents. It seems you are trying to argue that a doctor's mistake is only relevant if he makes it on purpose. As for why a doctor should strive to follow an oath they haven't taken, it's the same reason as why people who aren't Catholic or Christian who follow the Ten Commandments. It's just the right thing to do.
I wonder how many other threads have you hijacked with your 35,000 plus comments here. How many other people did you go out of your way to piss off and denigrate with what you think is such a special opinion you feel some need to share so much? It's callous people like you who are really poisoning the medical profession. I feel sorry for anyone who was under your care during your more than a decade in the field. You know, there's a reason they call it Health "CARE."
You've also jumped to some ignorant conclusions about Lucille's case, and your constant focus on waivers is beside the point. Just because you signed a waiver before a surgery does not mean you should not be considered a victim if something goes wrong.
Women are under a whole different level of scrutiny than men are. You obviously have no idea about what drives them to seek plastic surgery. Society doesn't drive people to look better just to attract members of the opposite sex. Women in particular often get plastic surgery because there is tremendous pressure on them to look their best. Sometimes a woman's looks and physique actually helps in getting better opportunities in life. Attractive people really do get all the best breaks in life in many cases. It's a fact of life, and while some people can deal with it, others choose to take the opportunity to do whatever they can to become as attractive as possible. They should not be demonized for that choice. I understand if someone is getting a procedure every other week or month, but your comments here seem to argue everyone who gets any kind of cosmetic procedure is just vain and stupid.
Rich Bergeron

Laconia, NH

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#52
Feb 11, 2013
 

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So it's either the patient's fault for having a unique biology or the doctor just made a natural, innocent mistake? Those are your only two explanations for when things go wrong in the medical field? I accept that doctors can make those type of mistakes that are in many occasions not their fault. However, there are too many cases where the surgeon is clearly at fault, be it an elective procedure or one that is absolutely essential. There are even doctors who have been documented alcoholics or drug addicts who perform their procedures under the influence. You don't seem to want to account for doctors who should and do know better and still take shortcuts or make truly poor choices that maim or kill people. And did I say everyone follows the ten commandments? You don't even get basic logic. I used the ten commandments reference to debunk your argument about doctors who don't officially swear to the oath but still follow the tenets and principles of it. Millions of people across the world follow the ten commandments even though they aren't Catholic or Christian. Just because you don't give a damn about living a clean and responsible life and doing the right thing doesn't mean my statement about everyone else who does strive to follow those righteous guidelines is wrong. The waiver exists to protect the doctor and limit insurance claims, and no patient expects a guarantee if they have done their research and have been told the truth about the risks. Waivers are also not infallible. A patient signing one does not always bar a civil claim against a doctor for pure negligence. I agree that nobody should seek out elective or plastic surgery. So did Lucille, and so do a ton of patients who make innocent decisions to get what they think is a simple procedure and then get seriously injured as a result. You say doctors are human and make excuses up and down for them, but so are those injured patients, and you seem to forget that. Not every human on the planet can cope with being less attractive than they want to be, and as sad and pathetic as that may seem to you it's just a simple matter of the frailty of human nature. Does it make these victims not worthy of a place to air their grievances without some dick like you coming in and blaming them for a doctor's poor performance?

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

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#53
Feb 11, 2013
 

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I said nothing against the existence of true malpractice, but nothing so far has indicated any in the case in question.

The 10c's point is meaningless; there is nothing inherently helpful in them that doesn't exist in secular sources. The hippocratic oath is similar, which is why many doctors don't bother taking it.

You know nothing about my life, you judgmental moron.

Medical doctors aren't responsible for peoples' inability to deal with themselves as they are. That's the job of a psychologist. Why are you dismissing an obvious mental-health issue?

Going under the knife is always a risk. Deal with it.
Rich Bergeron wrote:
So it's either the patient's fault for having a unique biology or the doctor just made a natural, innocent mistake? Those are your only two explanations for when things go wrong in the medical field? I accept that doctors can make those type of mistakes that are in many occasions not their fault. However, there are too many cases where the surgeon is clearly at fault, be it an elective procedure or one that is absolutely essential. There are even doctors who have been documented alcoholics or drug addicts who perform their procedures under the influence. You don't seem to want to account for doctors who should and do know better and still take shortcuts or make truly poor choices that maim or kill people. And did I say everyone follows the ten commandments? You don't even get basic logic. I used the ten commandments reference to debunk your argument about doctors who don't officially swear to the oath but still follow the tenets and principles of it. Millions of people across the world follow the ten commandments even though they aren't Catholic or Christian. Just because you don't give a damn about living a clean and responsible life and doing the right thing doesn't mean my statement about everyone else who does strive to follow those righteous guidelines is wrong. The waiver exists to protect the doctor and limit insurance claims, and no patient expects a guarantee if they have done their research and have been told the truth about the risks. Waivers are also not infallible. A patient signing one does not always bar a civil claim against a doctor for pure negligence. I agree that nobody should seek out elective or plastic surgery. So did Lucille, and so do a ton of patients who make innocent decisions to get what they think is a simple procedure and then get seriously injured as a result. You say doctors are human and make excuses up and down for them, but so are those injured patients, and you seem to forget that. Not every human on the planet can cope with being less attractive than they want to be, and as sad and pathetic as that may seem to you it's just a simple matter of the frailty of human nature. Does it make these victims not worthy of a place to air their grievances without some dick like you coming in and blaming them for a doctor's poor performance?
Rich Bergeron

Laconia, NH

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#54
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Now you resort to insults, because you can't make an intelligent point. And you call me judgmental when it's you who is so quick to judge the choices people make when they decide to undergo plastic surgery. You already proved you know virtually nothing about Lucille's case, so if that's what you are calling "the case in question" then you aren't even in any position to adequately decide whether there was malpractice and negligence there.

You don't even seem to get the point about the 10 commandments. It went right over your head. It has nothing to do with whether or not the same principles can be found elsewhere. It has everything to do with people who don't prescribe to the religion they come from who still follow the general tenor of what they require for exemplary personal behavior. The same goes for the oath. You don't have to swear by it to take stock in the tenets of it.

You keep ascribing ridiculous points to me as if I am trying to insinuate them when I'm not. I don't blame doctors for people who can't deal with themselves as they are. It's not always a mental health issue, either. When it really becomes Body Dysmorphic Disorder it does become a psychological problem, but just because people think they need a little "nip and tuck" (as these procedures are often innocently described as), that does not make them crazy. Again, you just don't seem to grasp what a woman goes through in life and how women in particular have their success or lack thereof directly correlated to how attractive they are or are not.

Also, your last comment is particularly funny considering I started this thread to begin with. "Going under the knife is always a risk. Deal with it." I AM DEALING WITH IT! I started this thread to call attention to the issue to prevent people from seeking out plastic surgery in the first place, because I've seen what it can do to people like Lucille. I know the risks are high. My point is the procedures are risky enough as it is. They become much more so when people who perform them are money hungry hacks like Dr. Barry Eppley. Doctors are always complaining about how the price of their practice insurance continues to increase exponentially. Eppley's insurance paid for him to sue a victim in federal court, curtailing her constitutional right to express herself. She took her concerns to the internet so she wouldn't have to take her claims to court and pay lawyers thousands of dollars when all she really wanted from Eppley was an apology, and that's what many victims really hope for and never get. Eppley has a documented history of malpractice, and I recently found one woman who told me he is responsible for the death of her husband. I put this thread out there to help me find other victims of other doctors so I can write a definitive book detailing how horrible these elective procedures can be and why patients should avoid them at all costs and be wary of the worst doctors out there performing these surgeries if for some reason they feel they absolutely need plastic surgery. I'm smart enough to know I'm not going to convince everyone not to go under the knife, but the least I can do is warn people about the doctors who have done the worst harm and have the most questionable track records. All you're doing here is clouding the issue entirely and injecting baseless insults as if they are salient points.

“Reality is better than truth.”

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#55
Feb 11, 2013
 

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There is no point to the commandments; 70% of the world's population don't follow them or care about them. They do good work without them. Aside from murder and theft, there is nothing to offer me or anyone else. Similarly, the same medical ethics apply whether you take (or even read) the hippocratic oath.

BTW--you aren't qualified to determine if it's malpractice. All you present is melodrama and innuendo. If I am interfering in that, good. I'm frigging sick of people whining.
Rich Bergeron wrote:
Now you resort to insults, because you can't make an intelligent point. And you call me judgmental when it's you who is so quick to judge the choices people make when they decide to undergo plastic surgery. You already proved you know virtually nothing about Lucille's case, so if that's what you are calling "the case in question" then you aren't even in any position to adequately decide whether there was malpractice and negligence there.
You don't even seem to get the point about the 10 commandments. It went right over your head. It has nothing to do with whether or not the same principles can be found elsewhere. It has everything to do with people who don't prescribe to the religion they come from who still follow the general tenor of what they require for exemplary personal behavior. The same goes for the oath. You don't have to swear by it to take stock in the tenets of it.
You keep ascribing ridiculous points to me as if I am trying to insinuate them when I'm not. I don't blame doctors for people who can't deal with themselves as they are. It's not always a mental health issue, either. When it really becomes Body Dysmorphic Disorder it does become a psychological problem, but just because people think they need a little "nip and tuck" (as these procedures are often innocently described as), that does not make them crazy. Again, you just don't seem to grasp what a woman goes through in life and how women in particular have their success or lack thereof directly correlated to how attractive they are or are not.
Also, your last comment is particularly funny considering I started this thread to begin with. "Going under the knife is always a risk. Deal with it." I AM DEALING WITH IT! I started this thread to call attention to the issue to prevent people from seeking out plastic surgery in the first place, because I've seen what it can do to people like Lucille. I know the risks are high. My point is the procedures are risky enough as it is. They become much more so when people who perform them are money hungry hacks like Dr. Barry Eppley. Doctors are always complaining about how the price of their practice insurance continues to increase exponentially. Eppley's insurance paid for him to sue a victim in federal court, curtailing her constitutional right to express herself. She took her concerns to the internet so she wouldn't have to take her claims to court and pay lawyers thousands of dollars when all she really wanted from Eppley was an apology, and that's what many victims really hope for and never get. Eppley has a documented history of malpractice, and I recently found one woman who told me he is responsible for the death of her husband. I put this thread out there to help me find other victims of other doctors so I can write a definitive book detailing how horrible these elective procedures can be and why patients should avoid them at all costs and be wary of the worst doctors out there performing these surgeries if for some reason they feel they absolutely need plastic surgery. I'm smart enough to know I'm not going to convince everyone not to go under the knife, but the least I can do is warn people about the doctors who have done the worst harm and have the most questionable track records. All you're doing here is clouding the issue entirely and injecting baseless insults as if they are salient points.
Rich Bergeron

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#56
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Pulling statistics out of your ass now, huh? That's no surprise. That's the same place you got your whole argument here. It's only whining to you because you obviously don't know anyone or have anyone in your family who died or was injured due to negligence or medical malpractice. I have studied the subject and dealt with the consequences for nearly my whole life since losing my mother at the age of six and then testifying at the trial when I was in high school. I also became a legal expert over the past decade, representing myself in multiple venues across four states. I went as far as the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. That's not melodrama and innuendo, it's REALITY. I'm not living in some dream world like you are.

Oh, and you did a fantastic job of contradicting yourself with this gem: "Similarly, the same medical ethics apply whether you take (or even read) the hippocratic oath." Thanks for making my point for me.

You say I'm not qualified to decide if Lucille's case was negligence/malpractice, but how are you qualified? What hard evidence do you have? All you bring to the table are pompous, unfounded assumptions.

Do you have the medical records from the case? I do.

Did you review any of the court documents? I wrote half of them.

Do you know about Dr. Eppley's past episodes of malpractice? I have the records: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/20657484/Dr-Barry...

You're obviously not interfering with anything here, because you only proved how ignorant and biased you are. At this point your blind support of Eppley makes me think you're a colleague, friend, or relative of his. Next time you see let him know he won't be able to hide the truth about his past forever. I still plan to write a book about what he did to Lucille, and the next time he tries to sue me he's not going to get such a biased and corrupted judge.

“Reality is better than truth.”

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#57
Feb 12, 2013
 

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A legal expert? Then you should know that past cases are irrelevant to curent case. Did you get a malpractice verdict in this case--at the age of 6? And how does one become a legal expert who doesn't understand or believe in patient waivers? Or, for that matter, who believes someone has to prove innocence in a court case. Burden of proof is on the accuser, remember?

To establish malpractice, you need medical experts, which you are not.

Medical ethics are standardized by the AMA; the oath is not relevant.

As for stats--only 25% of the world's population is jewish or christian--and not all sects follow the 10 commandments.

I have no connection to eppley; just another of your butt-hurt fantasies. I do have many years in the medical fields and heard a lot of patients moan about consequences of procedures that were all explained as possible side effects. The doctors with whom I worked had only one malpractice case brought, which was decided in their favor. It still was devastating to them. So yes, I have a stake in this game--doctors need to be protected from patients who refuse to accept that bad things can result from perfectly appropriate procedures. Aside from the ethical considerations, constant litigation is a major factor in the cost of halthcare.
Rich Bergeron wrote:
Pulling statistics out of your ass now, huh? That's no surprise. That's the same place you got your whole argument here. It's only whining to you because you obviously don't know anyone or have anyone in your family who died or was injured due to negligence or medical malpractice. I have studied the subject and dealt with the consequences for nearly my whole life since losing my mother at the age of six and then testifying at the trial when I was in high school. I also became a legal expert over the past decade, representing myself in multiple venues across four states. I went as far as the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. That's not melodrama and innuendo, it's REALITY. I'm not living in some dream world like you are.
Oh, and you did a fantastic job of contradicting yourself with this gem: "Similarly, the same medical ethics apply whether you take (or even read) the hippocratic oath." Thanks for making my point for me.
You say I'm not qualified to decide if Lucille's case was negligence/malpractice, but how are you qualified? What hard evidence do you have? All you bring to the table are pompous, unfounded assumptions.
Do you have the medical records from the case? I do.
Did you review any of the court documents? I wrote half of them.
Do you know about Dr. Eppley's past episodes of malpractice? I have the records: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/20657484/Dr-Barry...
You're obviously not interfering with anything here, because you only proved how ignorant and biased you are. At this point your blind support of Eppley makes me think you're a colleague, friend, or relative of his. Next time you see let him know he won't be able to hide the truth about his past forever. I still plan to write a book about what he did to Lucille, and the next time he tries to sue me he's not going to get such a biased and corrupted judge.
Nate

Phoenix, AZ

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#58
Feb 12, 2013
 

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cpeter1313 wrote:
What patients think about the oath is irrelevant; they contract with the doctor to provide a service--their area of medicine is also irrelevant. As I noted before, many doctors never took the oath and aren't required to.
Do you always whine like this?
<quoted text>
What patients think about the oath IS relevant if it factors into their decision to have the surgery. I repeat, it's good to know that the Hippocratic oath is meaningless. We need to do all we can to make sure that word about this is publicized, along with all the other excellent reasons you give for why we should all avoid doctors.
Nate

Phoenix, AZ

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#59
Feb 12, 2013
 

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cpeter1313 wrote:
The hippocratic oath is nice but meaningless. It's a codification of basic ethics but not legally binding in any way.
The art of medicine oesn't involve insanity--although the elbow-leg rhetorical example you give actually DOES reflect certain procedures, not often used today, to keep tissue alive by grafting one portion of tissue to another with a healthier blood supply.
Any patient can ask for a copy of a waiver; they are pretty standard and most offices buy them by the carton, filling in any personal info required. One's personal physician probably uses the same forms, and any decent lawyer already knows what needs to be in there. However, the form MUST be signed the day of the procedure.
It took you a year to come up with this pathetic response, and I'M the moron? Sorry, but no.
<quoted text>
Hey, dentist, it didn't take me a year to come up with my "pathetic response", as you call it. I discovered this website yesterday, when someone sent me a link to it. It's interesting though to see that YOU'VE been sitting around for a year waiting for a response. That's a real busy dental practice you have, Dr shit-for-brains. Maybe you should cut down on your own consumption of the nitrous oxide. Better yet, keep a supply in your car to use while you drive around.
Nate

Phoenix, AZ

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#60
Feb 12, 2013
 

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cpeter1313 wrote:
I said nothing against the existence of true malpractice, but nothing so far has indicated any in the case in question.
The 10c's point is meaningless; there is nothing inherently helpful in them that doesn't exist in secular sources. The hippocratic oath is similar, which is why many doctors don't bother taking it.
You know nothing about my life, you judgmental moron.
Medical doctors aren't responsible for peoples' inability to deal with themselves as they are. That's the job of a psychologist. Why are you dismissing an obvious mental-health issue?
Going under the knife is always a risk. Deal with it.
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You mamma's boy. You're so fucking stupid, cpeter, I doubt you can chew gum while chewing gum at the same time. Plastic surgeons RELY on "peoples' inability to deal with themselves as they are," and they do all that they can to ENCOURAGE this feeling--at least until the fee is collected and surgery is done--because THAT'S how they make their money. It's only AFTER they've perpetrated their butchery they one hears all the sniffing, self-serving talk about patients mental states. Send me your address, cpeter. Let's spend a weekend together.
Rich Bergeron

Laconia, NH

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Feb 12, 2013
 

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I didn't personally get a malpractice verdict in the case of my mother, and the case went to court when I was in high school, not when I was six. Our lawyers did get a malpractice verdict, and the doctor involved is now chief of medicine at her hospital. So, not all doctors who are wrapped up in these type of cases have their lives ruined.

You continue to prove you know nothing about the Eppley case. Eppley sued Lucille for saying in a public forum that he damaged her in his procedure. In that scenario, yes he would indeed have to prove innocence. Yet, he didn't prove that, because he testified as his own expert witness, and the judge accepted the testimony without Lucille having any opportunity to cross examine him.

I'm not trying to establish malpractice/negligence in a court of law when it comes to Lucille. I'm trying to write a book about what the victims of these botched procedures go through. As someone who has actually witnessed a malpractice trial, researched the subject for years, and represented myself in court I am miles ahead of you in my understanding of what malpractice and negligence is and what it does to families when someone dies as a result. You know one doctor who had a bad experience with a case, and you don't even describe the details or say why the case was filed. Did he make an innocent mistake, or was it a case of a failure on his part to take the correct precautions? We don't know, because again you just talk out of your ass and have no concrete facts to back up your contentions. Now you've got another percentage out there with nothing to corroborate it. How can you possibly even know or find out who follows the ten commandments or not? At any rate, you already agreed with me and proved my point on that whole subject. You argued for about 6 posts trying to refute the same point you made for me. Why should anyone take stock in anything you say?

And waivers don't mean a damn thing when the problem is a clear cut case of malpractice or negligence. Waivers simply explain side effects and potential complications, and they do not cover mistakes made due to irresponsible shortcuts or pure stupidity on a doctor's part. Their main function and purpose is to make people think they can't sue if they signed one. That's not true at all. You also don't NEED a medical expert to prove negligence when the records speak for themselves or if a witness from the surgery team testifies.

You keep coming up with BS about your connection to medicine and the side effects being told to the patient making everything OK. Yet, how do you account for all the drugs and procedures that get advertised on TV and then the commercials for the law firms that follow asking for class action participants against the manufacturers of those drugs and performers of those procedures? Also, did any of your doctor friends die or get seriously injured by the cases against them?

The fact is, doctors are as much to blame for the litigation expenses that are incurred because of malpractice and negligence cases, and frivolous cases are not as much of a burden on the system as they used to be. Doctors Like Eppley who sue their critics to silence them are adding to the insurance costs all doctors face, and he's not alone.
DocSpringer

Los Angeles, CA

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#62
Feb 12, 2013
 
cpeter1313 wrote:
The hippocratic oath is nice but meaningless. It's a codification of basic ethics but not legally binding in any way.
The art of medicine oesn't involve insanity--although the elbow-leg rhetorical example you give actually DOES reflect certain procedures, not often used today, to keep tissue alive by grafting one portion of tissue to another with a healthier blood supply.
Any patient can ask for a copy of a waiver; they are pretty standard and most offices buy them by the carton, filling in any personal info required. One's personal physician probably uses the same forms, and any decent lawyer already knows what needs to be in there. However, the form MUST be signed the day of the procedure.
It took you a year to come up with this pathetic response, and I'M the moron? Sorry, but no.
<quoted text>
cpeter1313 is right. The Hippocratic oath really is very silly. We plastic surgeons pay no attention to it at all, except to quote it to our patents when it works to our advantage to do so. Patients need to realize that plastic surgeons are no different from car salesmen, or the stranger who walks up to you on the street pulls up his sleeve and shows you an arm covered in watches. It's a jungle out there, and we have to make money, too. So what if we exploit a patients vulnerability and lack of self-confidence. So what if sometimes we are wolves to the very persons who place their highest trust in us. In our line of work, it's nature red in tooth and claw. Cpeter is right about the "first do no harm" precept referring to intentional harm. If a patient comes in wanting a 38th face lift, and I know that the more surgeries a person has the higher the risk that the outcome will be poor, as long as it isn't my intention to hurt the person, I can go ahead and give the patient her 39th surgery with a completely free conscience. If something happens to go wrong, oh, well, I'm only human. I haven't violated the precept.
DocSpringer

Los Angeles, CA

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Feb 12, 2013
 

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cpeter is right. The Hippocratic oath really is very silly. I'm a plastic surgeon and I know. I violate it all the time. For instance, a woman came in several weeks ago wanting a face lift. The problem would have been that she had already had 17 face lifts. Now if the Hippocratic oath had had any force at all, I certainly wouldn't have operated on her, which in fact I did. So, the outcome of her surgery was poor. Is it my fault? So her life was ruined; is it my fault? Nobody held a gun to her head. I'm only human. She knew what she was doing, and if she didn't, well, the important thing is that she signed the consent form. As for giving the patient the consent form at the initial consult, well, that would be stupid. I'd run the risk of the patient showing the thing to her primary care doctor, or even worse to her lawyer. You can't have patients showing things to their doctors and lawyers because then we won't make any money.We plastic surgeons are no different from the car salesman, or the guy who walks up to you in the street, rolls up his sleeve and shows you an arm covered in fake Rolex watches. We and our families gotta eat, too, you know. So what if we're wolves to our patients sometimes. It's a jungle out there for everybody.
universalaesthet ics

UK

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#64
Feb 14, 2013
 

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Thank you for advocating for plastic surgeons, Peter. We always seem to get a bad wrap. I've had 3 patients commit suicide after I gave them face lifts. The families sued. It was no problem to convince the juries that the patients' suicide had nothing to do with my surgery, but rather had to do with depression. It made no difference that the plaintiff argued that the patient had no history of depression. You see in plastic surgery we often find that depression can be latent. A person can actually spend there entire lives happy and showing no signs of depression, and then presto! they have a plastic surgery and for some reason that latent depression decides to manifest itself. It's purely coincidence, of course. Funny Nate should mention sewing a person's knees to his elbows. I actually had to do this once. I was doing a nose job, you see, and I was looking for skin to graft to the end of the patient's nose. The patient was concerned that donor site have absolutely no hair. In this patient's case, the only part of his body that had no hair was the head of his penis. So, in an amazingly innovative and brilliant surgery, I did a flap of his penis onto the bridge of the patient's nose. Because the nose has a poor blood supply, for several weeks until the graft healed, I had the patent's nose attached to his penis. In order to ensure patient compliance I took the added precaution of sewing his elbows to his knees. I can send you pictures.

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