When ‘Religious Liberty’ Was Used To ...

Sunapee, NH

#68 May 3, 2014
Larry wrote:
There's more cut and paste here than actual discussions.
This is from my left wingnut web search!
This is from my right wingnut web search!
Nobody reads those links. For obvious reasons.
You are the one who adds nothing to the discussion Larry.

Just another one of your empty, thoughtless insults.

Nobody really cares what you think Larry, because judging from your total lack of meaningfull content, obviously you are not very good at thinking.
Gott mit uns

Sunapee, NH

#69 May 3, 2014
FFRF blasts Hobby Lobby bible curriculum
April 25, 2014

"The Freedom From Religion Foundation is strongly criticizing Hobby Lobby’s public school bible course http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/20416... recently approved by Mustang Public Schools in Mustang, Okla.

National state-church watchdog FFRF has been eyeing the bible course since November, when Hobby Lobby’s billionaire owner Steve Green personally pitched it to the school board. On April 23, FFRF Staff Attorney Andrew Seidel had a chance to look over the proposed textbook.

“I am amazed that any school district would think this is appropriate for public schools,” said Seidel, adding that his amazement isn’t accompanied by surprise.“This just confirms the suspicions we had about the class last year. Clearly, Hobby Lobby and the Greens are trying to convert children to their particular brand of Christianity. There is nothing scholarly, fair or balanced about the curriculum.”

In its April 24 letter to the school district, FFRF noted that the “the draft materials MPS intends to use unequivocally fail to meet the legal standards required by our Constitution. The materials show a clear Christian bias, treat the bible as historically accurate and true in all respects and make theological claims.”

FFRF intends to further review the materials this summer because “these criticisms are not exhaustive and were revealed after a brief glance.” Seidel hopes to enroll experts to critique the class more thoroughly.

Seidel noted numerous alarming inaccuracies, including:

Perhaps the best example of the Christian bias of the book is the question it asks and answers:“What is God like?” It goes on to list only positive attributes (“Faithful and good,”“gracious and compassionate,” "orderly and disciplined,”“full of love”) or theologically Christian attributes (“always was, always will be,”“ever-present help in times of trouble,”“righteous judge”). God’s negative aspects go unmentioned. For instance, according to the same bible in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:5), it says,“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” Not only does God admit jealousy, he promises to punish innocent children for the crimes of their parents in the Ten Commandments. Any fair, balanced listing of God’s attributes must include those which he allegedly gives himself.
In an epic fail, the textbook criticizes the “historical half-truths” of Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code, a work of fiction, but fails to apply that same critical lens to the bible it’s so clearly promoting. The summary contained on that page reads,“[W]e can conclude that the Bible, especially when viewed alongside other historical information, is a reliable historical source.” The text even makes the claim that “The writer of Genesis (traditionally thought to be Moses) says …” Genuine scholarship shows that Moses was not the author. "

For other examples of how the curriculum’s text fails to pass constitutional and scholarly muster, read FFRF’s letter: http://ffrf.org/images/mustanghobby_letter.pd...

Montpelier, VT

#70 May 5, 2014
reason wrote:
<quoted text>
You are the one who adds nothing to the discussion Larry.
Just another one of your empty, thoughtless insults.
Nobody really cares what you think Larry, because judging from your total lack of meaningfull content, obviously you are not very good at thinking.
If you could do more than copy and paste, we could have an actual conversation. You could have original thoughts and we could have a discussion about a topic.

But the copy and paste thing is nothing but blah, blah, blah. It says nothing.

So let's start with a conversation. Why do people think copy and paste is entertaining? Give me an honest answer. Do you think you're "enlightening" people? Would it be more interesting reading where someone copies and pastes a liberal site, and the response is a copy and paste of a conservative site?

Do you think someone telling you to use your own mind is insulting?


Sunapee, NH

#71 May 5, 2014
Larry wrote:
<quoted text>
If you could do more than copy and paste, we could have an actual conversation. You could have original thoughts and we could have a discussion about a topic.
But the copy and paste thing is nothing but blah, blah, blah. It says nothing.
So let's start with a conversation. Why do people think copy and paste is entertaining? Give me an honest answer. Do you think you're "enlightening" people? Would it be more interesting reading where someone copies and pastes a liberal site, and the response is a copy and paste of a conservative site?
Do you think someone telling you to use your own mind is insulting?
I post articles because I want to have a conversation about the articles.

Most people it seems, like you, just want to troll me with insults without adding anything worthwhile to the conversation.

So if you wish to join the discussion Larry and use your own mind instead of just complaining about the format, we might even have an actual conversation.

If however you just want to continue to pass off insults as if they were meaningful, germane, thoughtful contributions to the discussion at hand, I will simply ignore your ham handed attempts at trolling.
Gott mit uns

Sunapee, NH

#72 May 5, 2014
Hobby Lobby’s Real Agenda: Taking Your Religious Freedom
by Amanda Marcotte May 5, 2014

"The Green family of Oklahoma, who own and operate the Hobby Lobby chain of craft supply stores, has been in the news in recent months because of their lawsuit, which has made it all the way to the Supreme Court, demanding the right to offer health insurance that doesn’t meet federal minimum standards but to get the tax benefits for doing so anyway. The Greens argue that because their personal religion forbids the use of certain forms of contraception, their employees should not be able to use their own health insurance plans to access that contraception.

While that case has gotten a lot of coverage, it’s hardly the only legally thorny issue the Greens have been involved in recently. Steve Green, the president of Hobby Lobby, has also been in the news, albeit in a much less spectacular fashion, because of his meddling with local public school curriculum. Green has spearheaded an effort to get Bible study as an extracurricular class in Oklahoma public schools, and has found success in the Mustang School District, which covers a suburban area around Oklahoma City.

Green is well aware that the First Amendment strictly forbids this use of taxpayer resources in religious instruction, so he has claimed that the class is about the history of the Bible through an anthropological and literary lens. Readers will no doubt be unsurprised to learn that this claim has turned out to be untrue. As reported by the Associated Press, while the curriculum does cover some of the promised material, discussing the Bible as a historical and literary document, it also has some old-fashioned preaching in it.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation got its hands on the textbook for the class and is drawing attention to some of its more egregious proselytizing: http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/20500... "...

..."The book also treats the Bible like an accurate representation of history, which it of course is not.

The Green family says they’re suing the Department of Health and Human Services over the birth control benefit in the Affordable Care Act because they believe in “religious freedom,” but this Bible curriculum shows how farcical a claim that is. Far from wanting the state to leave people be on the subject of religion, they instead want to use the school system—and taxpayer money—to foist their own, very narrow view of Christianity on students. The fact that the class is an elective makes no difference. Students are told they’re getting a class in history and literature, and instead are subject to Sunday school teachings, and if they aren’t compliant with it, they risk hurting their GPA. The Affordable Care Act’s provision that employers provide their employees with insurance that covers a full range of preventive health services, including contraception, is a secular law that doesn’t meaningfully affect anyone’s practice of their religion—no one is forced to take birth control—but kids in the Oklahoma Bible study class are actually having their understanding of history, as well as potentially their personal religious beliefs, manipulated by a dishonest curriculum.

Taken together, it’s clear that the Green family is not interested in “religious freedom.” Instead, the Greens seem to have an agenda of finding as many ways as they can to force their religious beliefs on others, by trying to get people at work and at school to submit to their fundamentalist Christian beliefs. "...
Gott mit uns

Sunapee, NH

#73 May 5, 2014
continued from: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/05/05/...

..."The contraception lawsuit is about trying to push their religious agenda on their employees by manipulating their benefits packages. And their Bible course is a clear-cut example of trying to inject religious teachings into public schools.

This is the religious right’s strategy: Chip away, little by little, at your religious freedom and make it so your choices, job, and education are all subject to complying with their religion. It’s exquisitely incremental—a Bible course here, a loss of benefits there. The idea is to chip away at our rights so slowly, and to make each victory so small, that the public doesn’t notice that our rights are slowly draining away.

The model for this strategy, of course, is the anti-choice movement, which has been using a similar strategy of passing one law after another, building each small strike against abortion access on top of another. Each strike, taken by itself, may not have seemed to amount to much. But after four decades of this, anti-choice advocates are now on the cusp of wiping out legal abortion access in most of Texas and all of Mississippi. The same strategy, as exemplified by the Greens, is now being used to chip away at your ability to live a life that isn’t constrained by the rules of a religion that you don’t follow (and which may in fact be contrary to everything you believe).

That’s something to keep in mind the next time someone suggests it’s not a big deal to let Hobby Lobby dodge federal law requiring that its benefits packages include contraception access for those who want it. If they win this round, many employees may be prevented from accessing contraception, and the Greens will continue to build on these victories. That’s the point: to chip and chip away, until your right to choose for yourself if you use contraception has disappeared, and you don’t even know how it went away."
Alex - Infowars Dot Com

Rutland, VT

#74 May 5, 2014
Realityphobe wrote:
<quoted text>
I post articles because I don't want to have a conversation about the articles but only throw my inane crapola opinions & looney leftist BS out there.
Most trolls like me, just want to troll with insults without adding anything worthwhile to the conversation.

I just want to continue to pass off phony 'news' as if it were meaningful, germane, thoughtful contributions to the discussion at hand, so just simply ignore my pig handed trolling.
We'll be praying for ewe susieQ
oh look what's in the news today susie!
Supreme Court upholds prayer at government meetings
Defending a practice used by the town of Greece, N.Y., the majority ruled that opening local government meetings with sectarian prayers doesn't violate the Establishment Clause as long as no religion is advanced or disparaged, and residents aren't coerced. The alternatives, the conservative justices said, would be worse: having government officials and courts "act as supervisors and censors of religious speech," or declaring all such prayers unconstitutional.

Justice Elena 'Butch' Kagan wrote the principal dissent for the court's liberal bloc, arguing that the intimate setting of local government meetings, the participate of average citizens and the dominance of Christian prayer-givers put the policy out of bounds.
read the rest at USA Today->
Fed-up freshman’s ‘white privilege’ essay goes viral:‘I apologize for nothing’
A freshman at Princeton University wrote an epic rebuttal to the numerous occasions that he’s been told to “check your privilege.”
Why We’re No Longer Number One
by Dr. Ron Paul

Montpelier, VT

#75 May 6, 2014
Rep. Gowdy:'Let Us Have a Hearing Before You Judge It'
Rep. Trey Gowdy, the South Carolina Republican tapped to head the House select committee on Benghazi, says Democratic critics shouldn't prejudge the hearings as partisan.

"Washington is its own ecosystem. They wouldn't like it if I cured malaria tonight, because I'm a Republican," Gowdy said Monday on Fox News Channel's "On the Record with Greta Van Susteren."

He advised Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff of California and others to "at least let us have a hearing before you judge it." Schiff said Sunday that Democrats should boycott the hearings to avoid giving it credibility. Some have agreed with him, while others feel Democrats should be there to provide an opposing voice.

Schiff and Gowdy are both former Justice Department prosecutors, and Gowdy noted that Schiff was hired by the Republican George W. Bush administration, while Gowdy was was hired by the Democratic Bill Clinton administration.

"That's what I love about the justice system. She wears a blindfold for a reason," Gowdy said."

Several House committees have held separate hearings on the attacks on the U.S. diplomatic facility in Benghazi, Libya on Sept. 11, 2012. Republicans have called for a select committee for months. House Speaker John Boehner finally agreed after an email became public last week tying a White House operative to talking points urging that blame for the attacks be placed on an anti-Muslim YouTube video.

The email, written by White House Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes, advised then-U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice to talk about the video, rather than terrorism, when appearing on the five Sunday news programs to discuss the attacks that killed U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans.

Republican critics say the White House feared that a terror attack so close to President Barack Obama's re-election bid would hurt his chances with voters since he was campaigning on having terrorists "on the run."

Gowdy told Van Susteren he wants all documents that have been seen by all the committees as well as any that have not yet been released.

"I'm not interested in redacted documents," he added. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah told Fox News that documents received by Congress had larger portions blacked out than the same documents released to the group Judicial Watch when it made a Freedom of Information Act request.

"I want to see every single solitary relevant material document," Gowdy said. In fact, he said he wants all possible relevant documents, including presidential daily briefing reports, so the committee can decide which are relevant.

Columnist George Will told Fox News Gowdy can't be accused of being a "careerist" since he doesn't even really want his job.

"He wants to go back to Spartanburg and play golf and raise his two children," Will said on Fox News Channel's "Special Report with Bret Baier." "He's always said,'I'm a prosecutor, not a politician,' which is why he's well-cast in this role."

And the goal of the committee isn't to energize the Republican base, Will added. It already is energized by Obamacare and other issues, he said.

Republican Texas Sen. Ted Cruz said he wants to see not only a bipartisan committee, but one composed of members of both the House and Senate.

"The truth shouldn't be partisan," Cruz said Monday on Fox News Channel's "Your World with Neil Cavuto."

Cruz said he is willing to accept the findings of the committee, even if it shows there was no intent by the administration to lie.

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained with incompetence," he said.

"These emails are nakedly political," he told Cavuto. "It is abundantly clear that the driving motivation is protecting the political interests of the president rather than telling the truth about what happened or getting to the bottom of it."

Sunapee, NH

#76 May 6, 2014
Larry the troll wrote:
This is a cut and paste from my right wingnut web search that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed!
Yup, you are just another cowardly troll with nothing to contribute to the conversation Larry....

Sunapee, NH

#77 May 6, 2014
In Case You Needed Another Reason to Dislike Hobby Lobby, Its President Is Launching a Public School Bible Course
April 16, 2014 By Hemant Mehta

"On Monday, the Mustang Public Schools board (in Oklahoma) approved a new Bible course developed by Hobby Lobby President Steve Green. Mustang will be the first district to test the supposedly secular curriculum.

Because that’s what students in Oklahoma need: More Jesus.

"The board, whose district is practically in Hobby Lobby’s Oklahoma City backyard, agreed to beta-test the first year of the Museum of the Bible Curriculum, an ambitious four-year public school elective on the narrative, history and impact of the Good Book."

This is the same Green who told a crowd last year that he thinks the course should be mandatory (5:47) because he knows the book is true (3:40):

&fe ature=youtu.be

One of the reasons you don’t see many Bible courses in public schools is precisely because it’s very hard to teach the class in a secular way.(It’s also hard, I presume, for non-Christian teachers to get through the Book of Genesis without laughing.)

There’s no word yet on whether the curriculum is indeed objective, but the ACLU of Oklahoma will be inspecting it as soon as it becomes available.

I don’t see any reason why Green should keep it limited to the school district, either. Go ahead and put the whole thing online. Let all of us take a look at it. If he cares about offering students an objective look at the Bible, there’s no reason all of us can’t help him judge whether his curriculum actually achieves that goal."

Sunapee, NH

#78 Jun 22, 2014
Stop calling Hobby Lobby a Christian business
HatefulAtheists HateTruth

Newton Center, MA

#79 Jun 22, 2014
it's a business Owned by Christians
why are ewe so intolerant of that?





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HatefulTheistsFe arFreedom

Brattleboro, VT

#80 Jun 26, 2014
HobbyLobbyWins-H atersLose

Rutland, VT

#81 Jun 30, 2014
sorry susieQ, but the Christians win this round
ewe baby killers are Really gonna be upset when Roe V Wade gets overturned, but that won't be until after the 2016 election of Rand Paul and/or Ben Carson
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Hobby Lobby on Contraception
Obamacare contraception mandate violates religious freedom

Supreme Court rules ObamaCare provision can't force some employers to cover contraception
(The ruling will have other implications, such as Govt. may finally call off its War On Nuns and war on other religious groups who oppose evils like abortion etc.)





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Port Huron, MI

#82 Jul 1, 2014
Equality wrote:
When ‘Religious Liberty’ Was Used To Deny All Health Care To Women And Not Just Birth Control
I propose two words in the title of this thread be changed and one word added..

When Hypocritical 'Christian Liberty" Is Used to Deny All Health Care To Women

SCOTUS says Hobby Lobby doesn't have to cover contraception but no other "religion" may do the same.

IOKIYAC - "It's OK If You're A Christian"

Get in your time machines and travel back to Jerusalem, 1AD where you belong.
Fundies are dumb

Port Huron, MI

#83 Jul 1, 2014
Hobby Lobby will, however, continue paying for items that prevent the egg from ever being fertilized...

...while continuing to offer products "Made In China" by women who can have abortions paid by the State.

Christians' "freedumb" doesn't negate my freedom.
The Preborn Have Rights

Rutland, VT

#84 Jul 1, 2014
"Christians' "freedumb" doesn't negate my freedom."
-such retarded statements could be used to argue for abortion of the post-born!

ewe have the right to be a slut, but not to have others pay for the consequences
Health care is not a right/freedom, neither is car care, manicures, a present and cake on ewe're birthday, or 40 acres and a mule etc. etc.

so kvetch and whine but forget about establishing Anything free or subsidized by the govt. as a right- it ain't and can never be.
Jefferson et al said that the job of Govt. is to protect (true) rights, meaning those one has from birth, especially upon becoming an adult. Rights are clearly understood by the founders as that which govt. must protect but cannot give! That's why they said they're 'unalienable' in the Dec. of Ind- cuz they came from God/the Creator of all things in nature as they stated to the King in that legal document, meaning that he the King has no legitimacy calling himself a sovereign since the leaders of the Colonies declared God as the only sovereign. For years prior to 1776 many colonists declared “No king but King Jesus!”
The Dec. of Ind was a kvetch rant against the tyrannies of the monarchy, written by those who were liberal in the true sense of the word, extending the concept of God-given rights of LIFE/Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness to also include those enumerated in the Bill of Rights, yet look at how twisted the ‘liberals’ are today in claiming that their ‘rights’ are infringed when any ‘health care’ provided by or subsidized by the govt. is a PRIVILEGE- Not a right, and the SC ruling only means they can’t necessarily make their employer pay for abortion pills like RU 486 which terminate LIFE
Similar is the que er 'marriage' controversy, where libtards also conflate a privilege (govt.-issued license) with true rights, screaming for States to allow licences for something and insisting it's about 'marriage rights'
-again, a mass stupidity that can be used to argue in favor of mass abortions of overgrown 'fetuses'!
HobbyLobs vs SnobbyLibs

Rutland, VT

#85 Jul 1, 2014
Libertarians have to laugh or they'd cry
The (leftie) internet went bonkers yesterday over the Supreme Court's Hobby Lobby decision, a narrow ruling that only let "closely held" corporations whose owners had a religious objection to paying for certain kind of contraceptives (abortifacients) off the hook from Obamacare's "contraceptive mandate." Employees, of course, would still be free to purchase supplemental insurance to cover birth control and to see their doctor to get a prescription for birth control. They can't purchase birth control over the counter but that's not because of the Supreme Court or employers with objections—it's because the federal government prohibits the sale of birth control over the counter.

Nevertheless for a certain kind of spouter of partisan talking points, the Supreme Court ruling—that the government could not, in fact, bully people into doing something if those people have religious objections—was more evidence of the "war on women" Democrats plan to keep running on.

Meanwhile in Georgia, a new gun bill that permits lawfully licensed residents to carry their firearms into a wide range of "public accommodations" (like bars) and actual government buildings goes into effect today. Opponents of the bill, generally liberals, tend to be the same people who opposed the Hobby Lobby ruling, while conservatives who applauded the Hobby Lobby ruling for protecting religious liberty applaud Georgia's law for protecting their Second Amendment rights.

Libertarians have to laugh or they'd cry. The partisan break on Hobby Lobby and Georgia's gun law doesn't make sense if principles mattered. After all, if an employer has a right not to be coerced by the government to purchase something for an employee, that same employer ought to have a right not to be coerced by the government to permit something on his property. Whether the specific objections are religious shouldn't even matter—either you have a right to run your workplace and business as you please or it belongs to the government. For too many partisan ideologues, liberal and conservative, the latter applies. Their political preferences trump any lip service to principles.
Jersey Sure

Florham Park, NJ

#86 Jul 2, 2014
Let's try and keep it real simple for the Sandra Flukey liberal simpletons; if you don’t like Hobby Lobby’s policies: Don’t work for them, don’t shop there, don't have anything to do with them. Get it!
Gott mit uns

Sunapee, NH

#87 Jul 4, 2014
William Rivers Pitt | Land of the Free, Unless You're a Woman


Friday, 04 July 2014





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