Scientific Proof that Prayer does nothing....

Posted in the Welch Forum

First Prev
of 9
Next Last
Atheist

Danville, VA

#1 Nov 14, 2008
In a long-awaited comprehensive scientific study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals, prayers offered by strangers had no effect. In fact, contrary to common belief, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, possibly the result of anxiety caused by learning that they were being prayed for and thus their condition was more serious than anticipated.

The study, which cost $2.4 million (most of which came from the John Templeton Foundation), was begun almost a decade ago and was directed by Harvard University Medical School cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson and published in The American Heart Journal, was by far the most rigorous and comprehensive study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of patients ever conducted. In addition to the numerous methodological flaws in the previous research corrected for in the Benson study, Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of the forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, explained:

The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion.

The 1,802 patients were divided into three groups, two of which were prayed for by members of three congregations: St. Paul’s Monastery in St. Paul, Minnesota; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachusetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. The prayers were allowed to pray in their own manner, but they were instructed to include the following phrase in their prayers:“for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.” Prayers began the night before the surgery and continued daily for two weeks after. Half the prayer-recipient patients were told that they were being prayed for while the other half were told that they might or might not receive prayers. The researchers monitored the patients for 30 days after the operations.

Results showed no statistically significant differences between the prayed-for and non-prayed-for groups. Although the following findings were not statistically significant, 59% of patients who knew that they were being prayed for suffered complications, compared with 51% of those who were uncertain whether they were being prayed for or not; and 18% in the uninformed prayer group suffered major complications such as heart attack or stroke, compared with 13% in the group that received no prayers.

This study is particularly significant because Herbert Benson has long been sympathetic to the possibility that intercessory prayer can positively influence the health of patients. His team’s rigorous methodologies overcame the numerous flaws that called into question previously published studies.
Atheist

Danville, VA

#2 Nov 14, 2008
Actually the prayer made them worse, go figure.
Atheist

Danville, VA

#3 Nov 14, 2008
Bumped for EMC, which I think stands for Entirely Mindless Confusion.
My Turn

Rupert, WV

#4 Nov 15, 2008
http://www.cfpf.org.uk/

Nick Margerrison of Kerrang! Radio's The Night Before With Nick Margerrison show recently recorded a telephone interview with Michael Roll about the proof of life after death.

The interview will be broadcast on the show on Wednesday, August 20, 2008.

The show begins at 10pm.

Listen live on the Internet

Linking the study of life after death with the scientific discipline of subatomic physics - the study of forces that are normally beyond our five physical senses
We have had "evidence" of survival for hundreds of years. However, only a materialisation medium is able to provide the proof that we all survive the death of our physical bodies.

This proof has existed since 1874 when Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments with the materialisation medium Florence Cook in The Quarterly Journal of Science.

We now have the mathematics that Crookes lacked in 1874 giving a cosmological location for the "spiritual" part of the universe.
You athiest cant prove anything, but Scientist, prove over and over, that there is something out there,, And what ever it is it is sure creative...
And they seem to believe it keeps comming back.

1 post removed
EMC2

High Point, NC

#6 Nov 15, 2008
Atheist wrote:
Bumped for EMC, which I think stands for Entirely Mindless Confusion.
Bump'n you right back,,,,So explain to this mindless confused person, just who or what created your little world of Evolution/Big Bang theory? Fact is you can only back up to your version of life beginning from simple compounds and chemicals. So Please inform all of us as to WHO or WHAT created those simple compounds,chemicals and Particles? That you so much believe started your lil EVOLUTION THEORY? I assert again that the Energy had to come from somewhere. So tell me where the energy came from?
Level 3

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#7 Nov 15, 2008
Atheist wrote:
In a long-awaited comprehensive scientific study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals, prayers offered by strangers had no effect. In fact, contrary to common belief, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, possibly the result of anxiety caused by learning that they were being prayed for and thus their condition was more serious than anticipated.
The study, which cost $2.4 million (most of which came from the John Templeton Foundation), was begun almost a decade ago and was directed by Harvard University Medical School cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson and published in The American Heart Journal, was by far the most rigorous and comprehensive study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of patients ever conducted. In addition to the numerous methodological flaws in the previous research corrected for in the Benson study, Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of the forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, explained:
The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion.
The 1,802 patients were divided into three groups, two of which were prayed for by members of three congregations: St. Paul’s Monastery in St. Paul, Minnesota; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachusetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. The prayers were allowed to pray in their own manner, but they were instructed to include the following phrase in their prayers:“for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.” Prayers began the night before the surgery and continued daily for two weeks after. Half the prayer-recipient patients were told that they were being prayed for while the other half were told that they might or might not receive prayers. The researchers monitored the patients for 30 days after the operations.
Results showed no statistically significant differences between the prayed-for and non-prayed-for groups. Although the following findings were not statistically significant, 59% of patients who knew that they were being prayed for suffered complications, compared with 51% of those who were uncertain whether they were being prayed for or not; and 18% in the uninformed prayer group suffered major complications such as heart attack or stroke, compared with 13% in the group that received no prayers.
This study is particularly significant because Herbert Benson has long been sympathetic to the possibility that intercessory prayer can positively influence the health of patients. His team’s rigorous methodologies overcame the numerous flaws that called into question previously published studies.
For every sciencist who makes a claim, there are more who will disspute his claim. Science is all theory.
The point you are missing is faith. With prayer comes faith. One must have faith.
Maybe the answer to their prayer was NO.
God's greatest gift is/can be unanswered prayers, or what appears to be unanswered prayers.
EMC2

High Point, NC

#8 Nov 15, 2008
Atheist wrote:
In a long-awaited comprehensive scientific study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals, prayers offered by strangers had no effect. In fact, contrary to common belief, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, possibly the result of anxiety caused by learning that they were being prayed for and thus their condition was more serious than anticipated.
The study, which cost $2.4 million (most of which came from the John Templeton Foundation), was begun almost a decade ago and was directed by Harvard University Medical School cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson and published in The American Heart Journal, was by far the most rigorous and comprehensive study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of patients ever conducted. In addition to the numerous methodological flaws in the previous research corrected for in the Benson study, Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of the forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, explained:
The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion.
The 1,802 patients were divided into three groups, two of which were prayed for by members of three congregations: St. Paul’s Monastery in St. Paul, Minnesota; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachusetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. The prayers were allowed to pray in their own manner, but they were instructed to include the following phrase in their prayers:“for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.” Prayers began the night before the surgery and continued daily for two weeks after. Half the prayer-recipient patients were told that they were being prayed for while the other half were told that they might or might not receive prayers. The researchers monitored the patients for 30 days after the operations.
Results showed no statistically significant differences between the prayed-for and non-prayed-for groups. Although the following findings were not statistically significant, 59% of patients who knew that they were being prayed for suffered complications, compared with 51% of those who were uncertain whether they were being prayed for or not; and 18% in the uninformed prayer group suffered major complications such as heart attack or stroke, compared with 13% in the group that received no prayers.
This study is particularly significant because Herbert Benson has long been sympathetic to the possibility that intercessory prayer can positively influence the health of patients. His team’s rigorous methodologies overcame the numerous flaws that called into question previously published studies.
Atheist you are like your ancient Roman and Greek predecessors. You seek physical proof of a spiritual GOD. You are NOT going to see this proof unless you first step out of the darkness which blinds you and step into the LIGHT of GOD! I really hope for your sake this does not take a life threatening event to make you non-believers wake up and see the Bigger picture! I respect your right to believe as you choose, But as far as your idealogy or theory of Evolution your case holds no water for Factual substance.
EMC2

High Point, NC

#9 Nov 15, 2008
My Turn wrote:
http://www.cfpf.org.uk/
Nick Margerrison of Kerrang! Radio's The Night Before With Nick Margerrison show recently recorded a telephone interview with Michael Roll about the proof of life after death.
The interview will be broadcast on the show on Wednesday, August 20, 2008.
The show begins at 10pm.
Listen live on the Internet
Linking the study of life after death with the scientific discipline of subatomic physics - the study of forces that are normally beyond our five physical senses
We have had "evidence" of survival for hundreds of years. However, only a materialisation medium is able to provide the proof that we all survive the death of our physical bodies.
This proof has existed since 1874 when Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments with the materialisation medium Florence Cook in The Quarterly Journal of Science.
We now have the mathematics that Crookes lacked in 1874 giving a cosmological location for the "spiritual" part of the universe.
You athiest cant prove anything, but Scientist, prove over and over, that there is something out there,, And what ever it is it is sure creative...
And they seem to believe it keeps comming back.
I agree 100% with you MY TURN. I also have challenged ATHEIST to prove who or what created the High Energy particles that created the singularity. I also totally agree with MELLIE MOUTH!
Wow

Sneedville, TN

#10 Nov 15, 2008
Atheists are really sad.
Guest

Aldrich, MO

#11 Nov 15, 2008
Atheist wrote:
In a long-awaited comprehensive scientific study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals, prayers offered by strangers had no effect. In fact, contrary to common belief, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, possibly the result of anxiety caused by learning that they were being prayed for and thus their condition was more serious than anticipated.
The study, which cost $2.4 million (most of which came from the John Templeton Foundation), was begun almost a decade ago and was directed by Harvard University Medical School cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson and published in The American Heart Journal, was by far the most rigorous and comprehensive study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of patients ever conducted. In addition to the numerous methodological flaws in the previous research corrected for in the Benson study, Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of the forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, explained:
The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion.
The 1,802 patients were divided into three groups, two of which were prayed for by members of three congregations: St. Paul’s Monastery in St. Paul, Minnesota; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachusetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. The prayers were allowed to pray in their own manner, but they were instructed to include the following phrase in their prayers:“for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.” Prayers began the night before the surgery and continued daily for two weeks after. Half the prayer-recipient patients were told that they were being prayed for while the other half were told that they might or might not receive prayers. The researchers monitored the patients for 30 days after the operations.
Results showed no statistically significant differences between the prayed-for and non-prayed-for groups. Although the following findings were not statistically significant, 59% of patients who knew that they were being prayed for suffered complications, compared with 51% of those who were uncertain whether they were being prayed for or not; and 18% in the uninformed prayer group suffered major complications such as heart attack or stroke, compared with 13% in the group that received no prayers.
This study is particularly significant because Herbert Benson has long been sympathetic to the possibility that intercessory prayer can positively influence the health of patients. His team’s rigorous methodologies overcame the numerous flaws that called into question previously published studies.
(Matt 4:7 [KJV])
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
My Turn

Rupert, WV

#12 Nov 15, 2008
Wow wrote:
Atheists are really sad.
They live in vain.
They have no tomorrow.
I for sure don't want to be in a battle with them, for they think when your gone you're gone.
They have the tendency to duck and run.
Faith is what wins wars.
Look at the 700 billion bail out, I bet 2/3'rds of them are atheist that thinks they are only here one time, and they don't believe in a future so they destroy all things around them, on the first time around..
Poor ol people.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#13 Nov 15, 2008
EMC2 wrote:
<quoted text> Bump'n you right back,,,,So explain to this mindless confused person, just who or what created your little world of Evolution/Big Bang theory? Fact is you can only back up to your version of life beginning from simple compounds and chemicals. So Please inform all of us as to WHO or WHAT created those simple compounds,chemicals and Particles? That you so much believe started your lil EVOLUTION THEORY? I assert again that the Energy had to come from somewhere. So tell me where the energy came from?
Explain to this atheist, besides man, who created your god?

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#14 Nov 15, 2008
meelie mouth wrote:
<quoted text>
For every sciencist who makes a claim, there are more who will disspute his claim. Science is all theory.
The point you are missing is faith. With prayer comes faith. One must have faith.
Maybe the answer to their prayer was NO.
God's greatest gift is/can be unanswered prayers, or what appears to be unanswered prayers.
Faith is not fact, faith is not based upon theory only an unfounded belief.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#15 Nov 15, 2008
EMC2 wrote:
<quoted text> Atheist you are like your ancient Roman and Greek predecessors. You seek physical proof of a spiritual GOD. You are NOT going to see this proof unless you first step out of the darkness which blinds you and step into the LIGHT of GOD! I really hope for your sake this does not take a life threatening event to make you non-believers wake up and see the Bigger picture! I respect your right to believe as you choose, But as far as your idealogy or theory of Evolution your case holds no water for Factual substance.
Where is your FACTUAL SUBSTANCE that god exists? Please,please don't say the bible, it's a nice piece of fiction filled with allergories.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#16 Nov 15, 2008
My Turn wrote:
<quoted text>They live in vain.
They have no tomorrow.
I for sure don't want to be in a battle with them, for they think when your gone you're gone.
They have the tendency to duck and run.
Faith is what wins wars.
Look at the 700 billion bail out, I bet 2/3'rds of them are atheist that thinks they are only here one time, and they don't believe in a future so they destroy all things around them, on the first time around..
Poor ol people.
Most wars are started because of faith in a supernatural being.
Amen

Princeton, WV

#17 Nov 15, 2008
Guest wrote:
<quoted text>
(Matt 4:7 [KJV])
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
WE need to pray for them to see the LIGHT! Thank you JESUS for your Grace and Mercy! We love you!
Believer

Princeton, WV

#18 Nov 15, 2008
Atheist wrote:
In a long-awaited comprehensive scientific study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals, prayers offered by strangers had no effect. In fact, contrary to common belief, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, possibly the result of anxiety caused by learning that they were being prayed for and thus their condition was more serious than anticipated.
This study is particularly significant because Herbert Benson has long been sympathetic to the possibility that intercessory prayer can positively influence the health of patients. His team’s rigorous methodologies overcame the numerous flaws that called into question previously published studies.
The above post was edited fod brevity because this forum restricts all posts to 4000 characters.
My reply follows:
That's the darndest things about studies. You have one that supposedly proves one thing; then, later, there will be another one that draws a completely opposite finding/ conclusion. An earlier study that I read about several years ago concluded that surgical patients who were prayed for healed more quickly than those who weren't prayed for. Studies are a lot like statistics, which can be juggled to prove any point which the researcher wants to make. Faith is not above scientific proof. It's about accepting the evidence of things both seen and unseen. To accept that the heavens and the earth declare the glory of the Creator God takes much less faith for me than to believe in some scientific hypothesis that changes with the political whims and interpretations of the moment. There was once a time that the best scientific minds of the age accepted that the world was flat. Of course, that was later proven to be incorrect. Why do you spend so much energy trying to disprove God? Are you trying to win converts to your godless theory in order to validate your beliefs? Does it make you somehow feel superior to believe that you have the answers and meaning for man's existence neatly packaged in the latest study? When Jesus came to earth, he chose simple fishermen to help spread his message of love and forgiveness because the learned religious leaders of his day where exactly like you. They thought they had all the answers and they refused to accept the remote possiblity that they there could be wrong. It was kinda like: "That's my story and I'm sticking to it……No matter what!"Your beliefs relegates man to being a carnal animal, who owes his existence solely to happenstance. Mine leads me to know that there is a Divine purpose for life. That death is a transition to eternal life and that love is the most powerful transcending force in the universe. I shall continue to pray for you. The God you deny loves you. My prayer is that you find him. Shalom.
My Turn

Rupert, WV

#19 Nov 15, 2008
moondance27 wrote:
<quoted text>Most wars are started because of faith in a supernatural being.
Thats the excuse Athiest use. A real christian will forgive, and move on.
Only the wolves in sheeps clothing starts wars.
Remember now in the begaining, the "word" was with go.
God spoke and it was done.
Remember now.. The word was with God.
My Turn

Rupert, WV

#20 Nov 15, 2008
moondance27 wrote:
<quoted text>Where is your FACTUAL SUBSTANCE that god exists? Please,please don't say the bible, it's a nice piece of fiction filled with allergories.
Where is your facts that he dont exist? Show me the facts, show me the Big bang facts, show me the bowl of soup we supposed to come from, duplicate it in a sterial setting.
My Turn

Rupert, WV

#21 Nov 15, 2008
moondance27 wrote:
<quoted text>Faith is not fact, faith is not based upon theory only an unfounded belief.
OK now whats atheism?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 9
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Welch Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Word assocation (Sep '07) 4 min Madison in TN 15,550
**Add a word drop a word** (Oct '13) 6 min Madison in TN 1,813
The Welch Hangout (Jan '13) 16 min Hell-Sucks 12,011
Welch Music Thread (Apr '12) 1 hr Porch Honkey 293
Three Word Story (Dec '09) 1 hr texas pete 684
what is the usefulness of topix 2 hr texas pete 13,365
cooterdog's hang out (Aug '12) 2 hr purplelady1040 22,423

Welch Jobs

Welch People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Welch News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Welch

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]