Is Hawaii more like Cuba, or like the...

Is Hawaii more like Cuba, or like the U.S.?

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Arthur Lemay

Santa Cruz, CA

#1 Feb 27, 2008
I see things like the Honolulu fixed rail system, opposed by a large majority of citizens. I see Doctors fleeing Hawaii because the legislature is controlled by special interests, who do not permit any reduction in malpractice judgements. I see billions of dollars transferred on the basis of race in the Akaka Bill. I see massive corruption and the theft of undreds of millions of dollars. I see that voters in Hawaii don't have any say in these matters, and recalls of politicians are nearly impossible. I see the "machine" politicians controlling the state for their own benefit.

How could Hawaiians have let their liberties and their votes be stolen by a self-perpetuating elite who run the state exactly the same way that Fidel Castro ran Cuba? No, not nearly as well, and he did not steal as much, either.



Unreal

Hilo, HI

#2 Feb 27, 2008
It's too easy to not care. When the surf is pounding, nothing else matters.

THAT is why things are the way they are.
maui gal

AOL

#3 Feb 27, 2008
While I would not want to live in Cuba (although visiting Cuba would be cool, and I have had friends who've done it) there are some things that the people there have that we don't:

First and most important of all, is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Cuba has access to free healthcare and medications. In the US, we have approximately 45 MILLION uninsured people, and many other people with insurance are but one denied insurance claim away from bankruptcy.

Second, since the American embargo and the Russian government stopping economic support of the Cuban regime, their balance of trade is nonexistent, so they face many times of scarcity.

But because they can't always count on having a ready supply of everything at all times (like we can), they tend to value what they DO have more and will recycle things until they finally fall apart. They have American cars, circa the 1950s and 1960s, still running around the streets of Havana.

Americans tend to discard things that are out of fashion but still perfectly usable, just because they can. I saw a TV documentary once about Cuban life, and they said that Cubans recycle those plastic shopping bags over and over and over again. You would never find a plastic shopping bag blowing around in the streets because they are too valuable to people there. Hmm...maybe we should collect all our old plastic shopping bags and send them to Cuba as a goodwill gesture. I'm sure the Cubans would appreciate it. And that beats having the government create some stupid rule banning them in this country.
maui gal

AOL

#4 Feb 27, 2008
BTW: You obviously have forgotten why Castro came into power in the first place: it was because of the corrupt puppet dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista, who was in bed with the Americans. Of course, in typical American foreign policy fashion, we also were assisting Castro during this fight against Batista, too, and eventually he turned around and bit the hand that fed him.
Arthur Lemay

Santa Cruz, CA

#5 Feb 29, 2008
Maui gal,

Your opinion about health care in Cuba is incredible. Haven't you seen the photographs of the filthy hospitals? Yes everyone is covered by the plan, but the care is disgusting. Yes, 45 million uninsured in the U.S., but they can all go to Hospitals and get free care.

Tell me, would you want to live in Cuba?

Stay on the point, please. Hawaii is not a free society either. The elites control the state and deny a democratic vote on the most important issues, like the Akaka Bill.

Who is in charge? Not the Governor, not the legislature, and the corruption just keeps rolling on.
maui gal

AOL

#6 Feb 29, 2008
Arthur Lemay wrote:
Maui gal,
Your opinion about health care in Cuba is incredible. Haven't you seen the photographs of the filthy hospitals? Yes everyone is covered by the plan, but the care is disgusting. Yes, 45 million uninsured in the U.S., but they can all go to Hospitals and get free care.
Tell me, would you want to live in Cuba?
Stay on the point, please. Hawaii is not a free society either. The elites control the state and deny a democratic vote on the most important issues, like the Akaka Bill.
Who is in charge? Not the Governor, not the legislature, and the corruption just keeps rolling on.
You obviously have been snookered by the American Medical Association and the health insurance industry into believing that "myth" that anyone, regardless of income, can just show up at the door of an emergency room and get free care. If that was the case, why is infant mortality in this country not the lowest in the world? The US is about 9th or 10th, behind some developing countries in delivering healthy babies.

Just go see a movie like "Sicko" and then tell me you still believe that we have the best care that is accessible to everyone. The state of health care is just hunky dory unless you're one of the 45 million uninsured or if you thought you had full medical coverage and have a $200,000 kidney transplant claim denied and have to pay for it out of your own pocket.

And just who are the "elite" who are running the government in Hawaii anyway? It's not "local" people or businesses...it's those corporatists from the Mainland who look at the state of Hawaii as prime territory for them to plunder. Look at MLP, look at A&B, look at Grove Farm, look at more recent entities like Mesa/go!, HawaiiTel (Carlyle) and Hawaii Superferry. If you have money, you can buy influence in this town.

And why can't the people of Hawaii vote on issues like the Akaka Bill and the Train to Nowhere? Simple. Because the State Constitution doesn't allow it. Until that changes and the voters are allowed to participate in initiatives and referenda, this State will always be the Banana Republic entity, run in the same manner, as it was in the days of the plantation lunas who "took care of everything" for the workers. It's time for the voters of this State to stop sitting back and letting others control their destinies.
Proud Haole

San Diego, CA

#7 Feb 29, 2008
maui gal wrote:
While I would not want to live in Cuba (although visiting Cuba would be cool, and I have had friends who've done it) there are some things that the people there have that we don't:
First and most important of all, is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Cuba has access to free healthcare and medications. In the US, we have approximately 45 MILLION uninsured people, and many other people with insurance are but one denied insurance claim away from bankruptcy.
Second, since the American embargo and the Russian government stopping economic support of the Cuban regime, their balance of trade is nonexistent, so they face many times of scarcity.
But because they can't always count on having a ready supply of everything at all times (like we can), they tend to value what they DO have more and will recycle things until they finally fall apart. They have American cars, circa the 1950s and 1960s, still running around the streets of Havana.
Americans tend to discard things that are out of fashion but still perfectly usable, just because they can. I saw a TV documentary once about Cuban life, and they said that Cubans recycle those plastic shopping bags over and over and over again. You would never find a plastic shopping bag blowing around in the streets because they are too valuable to people there. Hmm...maybe we should collect all our old plastic shopping bags and send them to Cuba as a goodwill gesture. I'm sure the Cubans would appreciate it. And that beats having the government create some stupid rule banning them in this country.
Free health care? Think again. If you think the Cubans didn't pay dearly for their "free" health care you are a lost cause.
Safety Net

Honolulu, HI

#8 Feb 29, 2008
@maui gal

I work in a community health center so I know a little bit about this and if we met we'd probably agree on a number of issues, but I highly disagree with you on others. Our American health care system is an absolute Rube Goldberg inspired mess, and insurance companies give me daily headaches, but please don't use Michael Moore's Sicko as a reference. Full access to 1905 healthcare isn't what we need or want, and Moore completely lost credibility for me with the comparison.(Although I did get a good laugh at him in the boat outside GitMo calling to the guards.)
If an ambulance pulls into Queens ER with an unconscious homeless guy in cardiac arrest, he will get immediate and excellent care, including emergency bypass surgery if it's indicated. He may get a bill from Queen's that he'll never pay, or he might qualify for Quest, or the loss will be spread out by Queens to the rest of us in one way or the other. But you are wrong to say that people don't still get free care in the ER. We in the CHC system do all we can to keep people OUT OF the ER first of course.
I worked as an NICU nurse and get so tired of people talking about our infant mortality rate when criticizing our country. In this country a 480 gram, 22 5/7 week gestation "baby" that lives for 3 days on a respirator then dies, is counted against us as a neonatal death in our stats. In other countries it's a miscarriage. So I've know long ago that we're comparing apples to oranges.
I wish I knew what the answer was, and I could bore you for hours with stories about the lunacy I deal worth from insurance companies. I'm not sure how best to deliver "universal" care. I certainly feel Obama and Clinton have better answers that McCain. Interestingly though, even Bush, whom I can't stand, saw how CHCs can help and did support us a little with funding.
maui gal

AOL

#9 Feb 29, 2008
Safety Net wrote:
@maui gal
I work in a community health center so I know a little bit about this and if we met we'd probably agree on a number of issues, but I highly disagree with you on others. Our American health care system is an absolute Rube Goldberg inspired mess, and insurance companies give me daily headaches, but please don't use Michael Moore's Sicko as a reference. Full access to 1905 healthcare isn't what we need or want, and Moore completely lost credibility for me with the comparison.(Although I did get a good laugh at him in the boat outside GitMo calling to the guards.)
If an ambulance pulls into Queens ER with an unconscious homeless guy in cardiac arrest, he will get immediate and excellent care, including emergency bypass surgery if it's indicated. He may get a bill from Queen's that he'll never pay, or he might qualify for Quest, or the loss will be spread out by Queens to the rest of us in one way or the other. But you are wrong to say that people don't still get free care in the ER. We in the CHC system do all we can to keep people OUT OF the ER first of course.
I worked as an NICU nurse and get so tired of people talking about our infant mortality rate when criticizing our country. In this country a 480 gram, 22 5/7 week gestation "baby" that lives for 3 days on a respirator then dies, is counted against us as a neonatal death in our stats. In other countries it's a miscarriage. So I've know long ago that we're comparing apples to oranges.
I wish I knew what the answer was, and I could bore you for hours with stories about the lunacy I deal worth from insurance companies. I'm not sure how best to deliver "universal" care. I certainly feel Obama and Clinton have better answers that McCain. Interestingly though, even Bush, whom I can't stand, saw how CHCs can help and did support us a little with funding.
There have been instances where indigent patients are kept waiting for hours upon hours in emergency rooms waiting to be seen by a doctor---any doctor. There have been other incidents (even seen on YouTube) of indigent patients being discharged from the hospital before they were completely healed because the money ran out, and tossed out on the streets to fend for themselves. For every indigent patient who gets "free" emergency care, how many are chronically ill who resist going to a doctor because they can't pay the bill? How many resist going to the dentist because it costs so much money who then end up with abscesses which develop into cardiac problems? Not everyone is a freeloader who wants to use charity care. By the time indigent patients get emergency care, they are so sick they HAVE to end up being hospitalized.

Look at the Big Island. Even patients WITH medical coverage can't find a doc! Tell me that's the BEST this country and State can do.
lchow

Kaunakakai, HI

#10 Feb 29, 2008
Cuba is not a great issue at this time in relationship to the US Presidential election. Iraq is as well as Iran, China, Pakistan, Russia, and North Korea!

Could I be mistaken? Please e-mail and tell me. By the way how do you send others e-mail on Topix?
vegasdoc

United States

#11 Feb 29, 2008
maui gal wrote:
While I would not want to live in Cuba (although visiting Cuba would be cool, and I have had friends who've done it) there are some things that the people there have that we don't:
First and most important of all, is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Cuba has access to free healthcare and medications. In the US, we have approximately 45 MILLION uninsured people, and many other people with insurance are but one denied insurance claim away from bankruptcy.....
You are right, MG, there is no charge for Cubans to have "medical care". However, many medications and techniques are unheard of in Cuba. You would be surprised by their lack of exposure to modern medicine, their lack of knowledge of what treatment modalities are available. I go to Central (Ibero) America, and I take students of all disciplines with me, under the auspices of a University. We only go where we are invited by the Ministry of Health, or equivalent government agency of the country in question. One of the few exports Cuba has is it's medical professionals, and they send them to under-served areas of the different countries. I have had some opportunities to work with these people. They are usually paid the equivalent of about 50.00 per month. The Cuban government gets a little more for sending them there. It used to be a plan that the Cubans would send Doctors to all of Central and South America, proselytizing the "communist" message to the poor masses, thereby eventually causing a revolution that would put communist leaders in power. A more or less well known example of this was Che Guevara. Anyway, I doubt that you would like medical care under the Cuban system. Diagnostic tests that we take for granted are virtually non-existent. Therefore, diagnosis, treatment, and ultimately survivability of many diseases,such as diabetes and heart disease is extremely poor. Free, yep, acceptable? Well, you decide, but let me assure you, if the state legislature does not act quickly, most or all of the more talented physicians in the islands will migrate to the mainland. You may have a chance to taste Cuban style medicine after all!
Safety Net

Honolulu, HI

#12 Feb 29, 2008
maui gal wrote:
<quoted text>
There have been instances where indigent patients are kept waiting for hours upon hours in emergency rooms waiting to be seen by a doctor---any doctor. There have been other incidents (even seen on YouTube) of indigent patients being discharged from the hospital before they were completely healed because the money ran out, and tossed out on the streets to fend for themselves. For every indigent patient who gets "free" emergency care, how many are chronically ill who resist going to a doctor because they can't pay the bill? How many resist going to the dentist because it costs so much money who then end up with abscesses which develop into cardiac problems? Not everyone is a freeloader who wants to use charity care. By the time indigent patients get emergency care, they are so sick they HAVE to end up being hospitalized.
Look at the Big Island. Even patients WITH medical coverage can't find a doc! Tell me that's the BEST this country and State can do.
Some good points made, of which I am well aware. Again, we may agree more than we disagree.

The fact that patients are discharged "sicker and quicker" nowadays is an enormous problem if they don't have a good network to help them. I guess I'm too old to ever consider YouTube as an important reference, but I've been appalled by news footage of ambulances dumping homeless people in hospital gowns on the streets in downtown LA. I am glad to say that I have not seen that happen here. ALMOST that bad, but Hawaii does have more humanity than that.

Yes, people do wait hours to see Doctors, both in the ER and in offices. Why do you think that is? In the ER patient acuity counts more than wait times on determining when patients are seen. Perhaps "supply and demand" is at play here?

I agree that the number of folks getting "free" ER care is smaller than the # who hold off care because of cost or absent providers. And what is your solution to that? Are you familiar with community clinics. I work with great people for whom it is more like a MISSION, to give good primary care and keep folks out of the ER. And you will NEVER here the word "freeloader" from my colleagues.

I'm not sure I understand your viewpoint. It seems you are bringing in a general dislike of America? Since this thread did start with talk of Cuba, are you a Marxist? I'm interested in your replies.
maui gal

AOL

#13 Feb 29, 2008
No, I am not Marxist, but I did study health administration, and did a little studying of the health care delivery systems in places like Tanzania, China and Cuba, which happen to be diametrically opposed to our political system.

In those systems, they have networks of trained nurses and paraprofessionals who go out into the field to treat patients (by "cookbook"). They are able to successfully treat almost 80% of those they see, and they send the sickest patients to the city to be seen by the specialists.

I believe every single citizen has a RIGHT to access to "basic" healthcare, regardless of age, sex, or economic status. "Basic" healthcare is preventive medicine in community health centers...treat em before they get so sick they have to be hospitalized. I believe we need more ancillary care workers: NPs and more community health nurses who can see and treat 80% of all the people in a community, so that the docs only have to treat the sickest 20% where their time and skills are most needed.

Why do we try to save 24-week old preemies? How much money is spent on NICUs? What will the quality of life be for those tiny babies if they do survive? Why do 90 year old people undergo open heart surgery or other invasive procedures costing hundreds of thousands of dollars when their life expectancy might only be a couple of more years, and 24-year olds die for lack of a donor kidney or heart?

It's because we're selfish and we can pay for it. We can only look at ourselves and not think about the consequences our choices might have on others who are younger than us or sicker than us. All we know (and all our culture teaches us) is that we have to get our share first.

It's a paradigm that we need to shift away from if we believe that basic, preventive healthcare is a right, and not a privilege.

So we might have to wait a little longer to see the doc. To me, if it means that someone sicker than me then gets to see that doc, I'm willing to wait a little longer.
LMAO

Makawao, HI

#14 Feb 29, 2008
maui gal wrote:
No, I am not Marxist, but I did study health administration, and did a little studying of the health care delivery systems in places like Tanzania, China and Cuba, which happen to be diametrically opposed to our political system.
In those systems, they have networks of trained nurses and paraprofessionals who go out into the field to treat patients (by "cookbook"). They are able to successfully treat almost 80% of those they see, and they send the sickest patients to the city to be seen by the specialists.
I believe every single citizen has a RIGHT to access to "basic" healthcare, regardless of age, sex, or economic status. "Basic" healthcare is preventive medicine in community health centers...treat em before they get so sick they have to be hospitalized. I believe we need more ancillary care workers: NPs and more community health nurses who can see and treat 80% of all the people in a community, so that the docs only have to treat the sickest 20% where their time and skills are most needed.
Why do we try to save 24-week old preemies? How much money is spent on NICUs? What will the quality of life be for those tiny babies if they do survive? Why do 90 year old people undergo open heart surgery or other invasive procedures costing hundreds of thousands of dollars when their life expectancy might only be a couple of more years, and 24-year olds die for lack of a donor kidney or heart?
It's because we're selfish and we can pay for it. We can only look at ourselves and not think about the consequences our choices might have on others who are younger than us or sicker than us. All we know (and all our culture teaches us) is that we have to get our share first.
It's a paradigm that we need to shift away from if we believe that basic, preventive healthcare is a right, and not a privilege.
So we might have to wait a little longer to see the doc. To me, if it means that someone sicker than me then gets to see that doc, I'm willing to wait a little longer.
Holy rap! She's not just a moralist she thinks she's God. Whatever we don't need we don't need a medical system run by people deciding to cut off health care after you're 90. Woops you missed the cut off date on your last birthday, we can't operate on you except that old kidney of yours we're taking it out to give to this 15 year old. Yea, basic care for everyone that's average and kill old and too young - you were born too soon sorry can't no won't help you. Ugh how ugly!
vegasdoc

United States

#15 Feb 29, 2008
maui gal wrote:
No, I am not Marxist, but I did study health administration, and did a little studying of the health care delivery systems in places like Tanzania, China and Cuba, which happen to be diametrically opposed to our political system.
In those systems, they have networks of trained nurses and paraprofessionals who go out into the field to treat patients (by "cookbook"). They are able to successfully treat almost 80% of those they see, and they send the sickest patients to the city to be seen by the specialists.
I believe every single citizen has a RIGHT to access to "basic" healthcare, regardless of age, sex, or economic status. "Basic" healthcare is preventive medicine in community health centers...treat em before they get so sick they have to be hospitalized. I believe we need more ancillary care workers: NPs and more community health nurses who can see and treat 80% of all the people in a community, so that the docs only have to treat the sickest 20% where their time and skills are most needed.
Why do we try to save 24-week old preemies? How much money is spent on NICUs? What will the quality of life be for those tiny babies if they do survive? Why do 90 year old people undergo open heart surgery or other invasive procedures costing hundreds of thousands of dollars when their life expectancy might only be a couple of more years, and 24-year olds die for lack of a donor kidney or heart?
It's because we're selfish and we can pay for it. We can only look at ourselves and not think about the consequences our choices might have on others who are younger than us or sicker than us. All we know (and all our culture teaches us) is that we have to get our share first.
It's a paradigm that we need to shift away from if we believe that basic, preventive healthcare is a right, and not a privilege.
So we might have to wait a little longer to see the doc. To me, if it means that someone sicker than me then gets to see that doc, I'm willing to wait a little longer.
Sorry MG, no can agree with you on this one. Let's see, where to begin, Ok, Tansania.
When I visited Tanzania a few years ago, along with a container of medical supplies and equipment that had been donated by medical personnel from this county, whose medical system you seem to have so much disdain for, their health care system was in absolute Chaos. They have one of the highest documented AIDS/HIV infection rates in the world, besides Botswana and Lesotho,how do they deal with it? The government, a decidedly marxist regime, issued a proclamation stating that AIDs did not exist in Tanzania. In addition, you only could get that disease, which did not really exist, if you were tested for it. Pretty well takes care of that situation, wouldn't you say.
I have addressed Cuban health care in another post, and will not bore you with that again.
China. Ok, worlds most populous country. Must be really good at taking care of their people, right? Have the most, must be that they keep them alive with excellent health care, right? Review your notes for a little thing called "life expectancy", I think you will understand what I am saying.
Health care is not a right specifically mentioned in the US Constitution, or the bill of rights.
If you want to help the situation in this country, we need to severely limit the profits that can be derived from health insurance by insurance companies. There is the waste of resources, while a large percentage of the "uninsured" are in fact denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions. Nice people, but they aren't on my Christmas card list.
Safety Net

Honolulu, HI

#16 Feb 29, 2008
maui gal wrote:
No, I am not Marxist, but I did study health administration, and did a little studying of the health care delivery systems in places like Tanzania, China and Cuba, which happen to be diametrically opposed to our political system.
In those systems, they have networks of trained nurses and paraprofessionals who go out into the field to treat patients (by "cookbook"). They are able to successfully treat almost 80% of those they see, and they send the sickest patients to the city to be seen by the specialists.
I believe every single citizen has a RIGHT to access to "basic" healthcare, regardless of age, sex, or economic status. "Basic" healthcare is preventive medicine in community health centers...treat em before they get so sick they have to be hospitalized. I believe we need more ancillary care workers: NPs and more community health nurses who can see and treat 80% of all the people in a community, so that the docs only have to treat the sickest 20% where their time and skills are most needed.
Why do we try to save 24-week old preemies? How much money is spent on NICUs? What will the quality of life be for those tiny babies if they do survive? Why do 90 year old people undergo open heart surgery or other invasive procedures costing hundreds of thousands of dollars when their life expectancy might only be a couple of more years, and 24-year olds die for lack of a donor kidney or heart?
It's because we're selfish and we can pay for it. We can only look at ourselves and not think about the consequences our choices might have on others who are younger than us or sicker than us. All we know (and all our culture teaches us) is that we have to get our share first.
It's a paradigm that we need to shift away from if we believe that basic, preventive healthcare is a right, and not a privilege.
So we might have to wait a little longer to see the doc. To me, if it means that someone sicker than me then gets to see that doc, I'm willing to wait a little longer.
Again, you make some good points and ignore others.

You're kind of preaching to the choir here because I've been both a community health paraprofessinal and an NP. I'm quite aware of "basic" healthcare delivery systems overseas. Absolutely!, I support more money going into education of paraprofessionals and nurses. But it does take MONEY to do that. Unless you are willing to use your expertise from your prior studies to work for free?

I agree there is too much greed in America. I came from a Christian tradition and I wish there were still nuns like those at the old St. Frances Hospitals. But most of us couldn't stand the celibacy I guess, and now most in health care have families we help support.

I am very familiar with the trained workers in other countries who help substitute for the lack of Drs. Ask my Micronesian clients what they think of that system though? And God Bless those health providers over there -- I actually tell my patients that their Docs are doing a really good job, because they have so little to work with. America has created the illusion that every malady can and should be cured. So people expect miracles or, "God Da*n it, I'm calling my lawyer!"

I don't know if you have children, but if YOUR 24 week premie were delivered, I wonder what you'd do? I don't know what I would do either and am lucky to have healthy kids. But my career has taught me some humility, and I don't PRETEND to know what I'd do in the crisis situations I've seen. All NICU staff question the ethics of what they do, and they are often in the role of LOVINGLY trying to help a family to "let nature take it's course" and withdraw support.

As I'd said, I can bore you for hours on the topic of health care in America so I'll stop here.

To answer the original question: Hawaii is like the US, not like Cuba. Except for perhaps the geographic and weather features.
LMAO

Makawao, HI

#17 Feb 29, 2008
vegasdoc wrote:
<quoted text> Sorry MG, no can agree with you on this one. Let's see, where to begin, Ok, Tansania.
When I visited Tanzania a few years ago, along with a container of medical supplies and equipment that had been donated by medical personnel from this county, whose medical system you seem to have so much disdain for, their health care system was in absolute Chaos. They have one of the highest documented AIDS/HIV infection rates in the world, besides Botswana and Lesotho,how do they deal with it? The government, a decidedly marxist regime, issued a proclamation stating that AIDs did not exist in Tanzania. In addition, you only could get that disease, which did not really exist, if you were tested for it. Pretty well takes care of that situation, wouldn't you say.
I have addressed Cuban health care in another post, and will not bore you with that again.
China. Ok, worlds most populous country. Must be really good at taking care of their people, right? Have the most, must be that they keep them alive with excellent health care, right? Review your notes for a little thing called "life expectancy", I think you will understand what I am saying.
Health care is not a right specifically mentioned in the US Constitution, or the bill of rights.
If you want to help the situation in this country, we need to severely limit the profits that can be derived from health insurance by insurance companies. There is the waste of resources, while a large percentage of the "uninsured" are in fact denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions. Nice people, but they aren't on my Christmas card list.
How about limiting the doctors profits by more attorneys? The lawyers are doing a great job! They've doctors down to zero in many cases.
vegasdoc

United States

#18 Feb 29, 2008
LMAO wrote:
<quoted text>
How about limiting the doctors profits by more attorneys? The lawyers are doing a great job! They've doctors down to zero in many cases.
I do not recall the exact movie, or even what the plot was, however it was set in the old west, and the "comic relief" was the editor of the local newspaper, and I do remember his line, something to the effect of: "the first thing we have to do is take all of the lawyers out, line them up, and shoot them down like dogs!" To quote another "great" american, tricky dick Nixon, "but that would clearly be wrong".
LMAO

Makawao, HI

#19 Feb 29, 2008
Another moralist.
vegasdoc

United States

#20 Feb 29, 2008
LMAO wrote:
Another moralist.
yea, I don't remember if that tricky dicky quote was preceded or followed by several minutes of silence on the tape...

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