Letters on Homestead Heritage: Commun...

Letters on Homestead Heritage: Community or cult?

There are 7205 comments on the Waco Tribune-Herald story from May 20, 2007, titled Letters on Homestead Heritage: Community or cult?. In it, Waco Tribune-Herald reports that:

For seven years, we've shared fence lines with members of Homestead Heritage on three sides of our land.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Waco Tribune-Herald.

Janice Alvear

Sapulpa, OK

#4149 May 24, 2012
I witnessed some of the points above however we all see things in the light of our personal experiences. There are many reasons that people are for or against them...Many people because of connections, family and other things prefer not to become involved.
I pray for them almost everyday. I received many letters at one time telling horrors that supposedly happened there but the letters were not signed...however I have read things that seemed to confirm things that were written to me...
I am glad we walked away...my missionary mom (not blood mother) lived and is buried there talked to me at length on several occasions about things that she knew I would never go along with.
First I do not think they have truth on many issues and especially Jesus in the flesh doctrine.
I asked mom on several occasions why she would mention to me, don't say this or that to the brothers, don't tell the brothers...why such fear? I do not really know all the answers except that she told me she took or maybe she said made I cannot remember. a covenant to them and it could not be broken.

I strongly disagree with many things there however many of the people are very sweet and I will never forget their kindness. I think about them often and wish that God would send a move of His spirit and things would change.

None of us are perfect I sure am a long ways from being perfect. I hope that things work out at some point and families can be mended and the love of Christ can be restored and all hurt and anger can be put aside.

I was hurt and angry for a while over things however to be right with God we must GET OVER IT...and walk on...

Shema....

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#4150 May 24, 2012
This is copied from the comments following the WFAA article.

Speaking as a pastor who has had to help some of these teens after they escape or are kicked out. This group's philosophy and doctrine has problems! It is in many God fearing, Christ followers beliefs who also study the scripture, that any group that demonizes people if they leave or tells them because they are not in "that" church their going to hell is acting like a controlling cult. This teaching also helps them keep people in fear and control so as to help cover the true reality. I pray the true Christ followers in that movement will come forward and walk in the light.

I haven't named him but his name and the name of his church were there on his post.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4151 May 24, 2012
There is only one reason that brings me back to this website.

That reason is the fact the HH elders will target another saint to abuse.

The abuses repeat themselves in HH; over and over, again and again.

Their demonic ways through their doctrines need to finally stop.

God's light is shining in HH and some on this website cannot stand that fact.

Why are you so shocked that the LORD is allowing every terrible result from HH doctrines to be revealed?

I believe everyone wants the same end; that they will come back to Jesus Christ, and HIS WORD ALONE.

Little Red Hen

Fredericksburg, TX

#4152 May 24, 2012
Back to the Gospel wrote:
This is copied from the comments following the WFAA article.
Speaking as a pastor who has had to help some of these teens after they escape or are kicked out. This group's philosophy and doctrine has problems! It is in many God fearing, Christ followers beliefs who also study the scripture, that any group that demonizes people if they leave or tells them because they are not in "that" church their going to hell is acting like a controlling cult. This teaching also helps them keep people in fear and control so as to help cover the true reality. I pray the true Christ followers in that movement will come forward and walk in the light.
I haven't named him but his name and the name of his church were there on his post.
I'm truly not trying to be contentious, but I wonder if this pastor has ever spoken to any in HH that are still in HH and are happy there? If he has only spoken to those who are no longer part of HH, that would seem to give a very one sided view of things.

I've had to make leadership decisions before that involved asking people to cease involvement in an organization ~ several times ~ due to the harmful behavior of those asked to leave. Harmful behavior like one person( unprovoked) slugging another person in the face! If only those who were asked to leave were listened to, they would have told a very different story than what leadership was aware of, and frankly, a very different story than what the truth actually was. I've seen this dynamic in action, more than once. In the slugging case, the "slugg-er" was quite effective in gathering a mob to support his cause that he had supposedly been mistreated by being asked to leave.

Of course, the " slugg-ee" who'd had his nose broken felt differently about that. So did the police. But, none the less, slugger told his sad story to whoever would listen, and many did listen, wrote angry letters and emails all with the same message: "Hang the leadership and their blasted rules (that don't allow people to slug others in the face) How legalistic of you! How controlling!!!!!!" Well, fist + face = broken nose + stitches= assault

So, unless the pastor quoted above has actually talked to current members, he may hold a very one sided view of things.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4153 May 25, 2012
[I'm truly not trying to be contentious, but I wonder if this pastor has ever spoken to any in HH that are still in HH and are happy there?](Little red hen)

It was explained in previous posts that HH doctrines are based on 'levels' within HH.

There are people there who are never treated unkindly in HH. Ever.

It also has been testified to, that when outsiders come to HH they meet, and are greeted by, those the HH elders choose.

The chances that you met those in the past who eventually committed suicide, or had other terrible events happen themselves or towards their family is nil-zero.

It has been testified to, that the HH elders school all of those who are involved with the public-on how exactly they are to answer questions concerning HH to the public.

Another testimony included this:
I.G.; at the HH fair, a woman was not smiling enough, so the HH elders pulled her and told her to stay in her home.

Everything is orchestrated by the HH elders.
Baaah

Austin, TX

#4154 May 25, 2012
Janice Alvear wrote:
I witnessed some of the points above however we all see things in the light of our personal experiences. There are many reasons that people are for or against them...Many people because of connections, family and other things prefer not to become involved.
I pray for them almost everyday. I received many letters at one time telling horrors that supposedly happened there but the letters were not signed...however I have read things that seemed to confirm things that were written to me...
I am glad we walked away...my missionary mom (not blood mother) lived and is buried there talked to me at length on several occasions about things that she knew I would never go along with.
First I do not think they have truth on many issues and especially Jesus in the flesh doctrine.
I asked mom on several occasions why she would mention to me, don't say this or that to the brothers, don't tell the brothers...why such fear? I do not really know all the answers except that she told me she took or maybe she said made I cannot remember. a covenant to them and it could not be broken.
I strongly disagree with many things there however many of the people are very sweet and I will never forget their kindness. I think about them often and wish that God would send a move of His spirit and things would change.
None of us are perfect I sure am a long ways from being perfect. I hope that things work out at some point and families can be mended and the love of Christ can be restored and all hurt and anger can be put aside.
I was hurt and angry for a while over things however to be right with God we must GET OVER IT...and walk on...
Shema....
None of us are perfect I sure am a long ways from being perfect. I hope that things work out at some point and families can be mended and the love of Christ can be restored and all hurt and anger can be put aside.
This statement comes to the core of the fellowship -- and the core
of our lives.
The multifarious rules and patterns which seem to indicate a perfect life is only the tip of the iceburg and every older wiser person in or out will acknowledge this; our attitude before God will always be the primary thing which will be judged...faith above works, attitude before outward penance, the great agape love of Christ before secondary covenants...
All pleasure is not abrogated. We forego the carnal pleasures for the greater, cleaner, and exponentially more spiritual pleasure
of eternal life. Glimpses of this is accessed upon this earth.
And our hope is in this and our love is from this.
This is the living water and the mystery of Christ. This is the gospel. This is the Way and the Truth.
I am convinced that when the word 'glory' is used in the NT this
speaks of the indescribable joy, power and love of YHWH. Extended
through his Son who is the Messiah who walked the earth.
It was what Jesus asks for just before he faced his own greatest test:
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This glory is everything and all. This glory is what stands in stark contrast to the pleasures of the flesh, whether perverted or even 'normal.'
This glory is what we hold in front of our children. It surpasses
nightclubs, rave parties and any drug past or present. It makes
romantic love only a type and shadow of the Bride's love.
It surpasses the greatest rock and roll song ever composed. The
lyrics or the melody. The greatest basketball shot or the greatest football pass or the seeming finest beautiful thing we can perceive upon this earth.
Let us hold up and affirm this glory. It is our hope and our life.
It was the core of God's covenant as the Israelites were about to cross into the land of plenty.
"I have loved thou. Now love thou me."
Little Red Hen

Fredericksburg, TX

#4155 May 25, 2012
ILTTTT-

Suicide happens across all sectors of society. It happens to rich people, poor people, religious people, atheists, Americans, Russians, executives, and street sweepers.

Suicide is a human problem that is not owned by one particular group.

All humans who have committed suicide in modern times were most likely part of some kind of group somewhere, but that does not mean the group was at fault.

Years ago, a member of my own extended family committed suicide. He was an atheist. He was highly educated, respected, and well off. He was well past middle age.

Decades later, a very close friend of mine committed suicide. He was a Catholic, middle class and still a young man. He was greatly loved by his young family.

Virtually the ONLY thing these two men had in common was...they both knew ME!!!

By your logic of causation, both of these men knew me, so I must some how be to blame. Surely there is a pattern of behavior here? Surely there is something that would cause not just ONE person who knew me to kill themselves, but TWO?!

I MUST be hiding something!

Hardly. I was only 6 years old when my family member killed himself.

My friend killed himself due to long standing depression that began when he lost his own dad.

Part of the tragedy of suicide is that those who were close to the deceased DO look for causation. But, usually, the comment you hear most at their funerals is, "He had so much to live for."

Commonality does not = causation.

Logic 101

Little Red Hen

Fredericksburg, TX

#4156 May 25, 2012
The formal name of the logical fallacy that ILTTTT continually relies upon is :

"Correlation does not imply causation"

Known also by it's Latin name:

"Cum hoc ergo propter hoc"

Contrary to my own feelings at the time, that Formal Logic class I had to take in college DID come in handy in later life !

Who knew?!
Baaah

Austin, TX

#4157 May 25, 2012
Your analogy falls short regarding the recent child abuse incidents.

There was a time when no one could conceive of such a condition within the HH body.

Because nothing happened amongst us randomly...
And the Spirit of Truth divides the false from the true...

The good from the evil and the righteous from the
wayward.

We believed absolutely in the pentecostal Spirit which would inform us of dangers and principalities amongst us...

Something went haywire, and this too not by accident. Although it is not random, the significance will be interpreted differently by different people.

I will not attempt this here. I was never a member.
All I knew were certain priciples held. The ones I mentioned.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#4158 May 25, 2012
Can't imagine they still believe they are" Jesus coming in the flesh" now that they have such proof against their doctrine. All of those convicted were indeed members or member's children and were very much part of community and church life there. They may have been separated out to work things out, but they were indeed raised in and by the community in all cases. To say that they were not actually members or were no longer members merely proves that the HH elders and ministers "refuse to accept personal responsibility" for their claims and their doctrines and their teachings.
And Little Red Hen; whereas it is true about disgruntled people being only too ready to castigate former associations and associates, abuse cases once swept under the mat by priests and religious elders and such were once common. Many people live with undisclosed emotional, spiritual, physical and sexual abuse because people believed such statements. Open investigation years ago would have been beneficial in protecting children, as would the whole of the HH society being accountable to educational scrutiny and health care. That would have been simple protection for both the group in question and more importantly the children raised there. Instead, the required reading and acceptance for would-be members prior to baptism was a book written by Blair Adams. Who Owns the Children is an add-on to become a member of the body of Christ in Homestead Heritage and Heritage Ministries.
aero

United States

#4159 May 25, 2012
I lived to tell the truth wrote:
[I'm truly not trying to be contentious, but I wonder if this pastor has ever spoken to any in HH that are still in HH and are happy there?](Little red hen)
It was explained in previous posts that HH doctrines are based on 'levels' within HH.
There are people there who are never treated unkindly in HH. Ever.
It also has been testified to, that when outsiders come to HH they meet, and are greeted by, those the HH elders choose.
The chances that you met those in the past who eventually committed suicide, or had other terrible events happen themselves or towards their family is nil-zero.
It has been testified to, that the HH elders school all of those who are involved with the public-on how exactly they are to answer questions concerning HH to the public.
Another testimony included this:
I.G.; at the HH fair, a woman was not smiling enough, so the HH elders pulled her and told her to stay in her home.
Everything is orchestrated by the HH elders.
You want us to believe people are either so stupid or so lacking in any spiritual discernment that they can't even tell when someone is their friend, even after years of relationship with them. You, who have had no personal contact with any members for decades, would also like us to buy the idea that this group is peopled by the finest actors to be found anywhere in America. I was a member for many years after you left and I didn't know anybody who could act well enough to make it into a high school play. Much less well enough to fool someone in a friendship that has lasted for years.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4160 May 26, 2012
The people who killed themselves-and two instances where the mothers killed their children as well- were Holy Spirit filled people. Two of those saints were in HH FOR DECADES.

No such occurrance should happen among the saints, ever when they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

The question becomes what happened to their relationship with Jesus?
What caused them in HH to loose ALL hope?

The point that is brought out on this website is the ABUSE perpetrated by THE HH ELDERS that is thrown on those who did commit suicide in HH.

You are mentioning a Catholic?!
The priest DOES NOT stand up in mass and PUBLICLY ridicule anyone in the church as the HH elders do!!!

Catholics are NOT disfellowshipped FROM THEIR FAMILIES-INCLUDING MINOR CHILDREN-BY PRIESTS!

I do not know any Christian group EXCEPT FOR HH who practices such barbaric events at their Sunday meetings.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4161 May 26, 2012
AERO,
There are OVER 7,000 posts ON FACTNET alone that have been placed by numerous people; all of them had a heinous event happen to them and/or their family while in HH. All of the testimonies speak about the CONTROL the HH elders have over that group.
Take your pick from those testimonies; most of those testimonies ARE RECENT-not decades old.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#4163 May 27, 2012
I think the problems are much deeper than these posters can see and that's perfectly understandable. The members and elders, ministers and such are not merely acting. They really live what they believe. Others with any sense would reject such control. When you have been there for a decade or two you begin seeing through things that before were hidden from you by your blindness in exalting men above God as "Jesus coming in the flesh." That's when you must face facts, repent and get back on track walking in the Spirit and allowing God His rightful place instead of man. Things turned bad for many of us there and we were fortunate enough to find grace back to the throne. How we got off track is different for each one of us and thankfully we were able to recover much of what the devil tried to rob from us. When you finally decide God is what matters and you get away from "high demand" organizations you can rededicate your life to Him and recovery begins one step at a time. That's the miracle-working wonder of Jesus. Don't you just love Him. For me it was definitively PTSD not unlike coming from the war zones but obviously different because we all though that we were on the same side. Now we help one another to recover

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#4164 May 28, 2012
No matter the past I look forward to the upward call and the prize that lays ahead, knowing now and ever hoping that others will find life apart from HH/HM. I think that that has been achieved now and though there has been some damage along the way there is are enough warning flags that they can make a balanced and educated decision.
This will be my last post (unless something changes). It's good to live in a free and democratic country where we still have the freedom to express our concerns.
Little Red Hen

Fredericksburg, TX

#4165 May 28, 2012
With A Christian Outlook wrote:
Can't imagine they still believe they are" Jesus coming in the flesh" now that they have such proof against their doctrine. All of those convicted were indeed members or member's children and were very much part of community and church life there. They may have been separated out to work things out, but they were indeed raised in and by the community in all cases. To say that they were not actually members or were no longer members merely proves that the HH elders and ministers "refuse to accept personal responsibility" for their claims and their doctrines and their teachings.
And Little Red Hen; whereas it is true about disgruntled people being only too ready to castigate former associations and associates, abuse cases once swept under the mat by priests and religious elders and such were once common. Many people live with undisclosed emotional, spiritual, physical and sexual abuse because people believed such statements. Open investigation years ago would have been beneficial in protecting children, as would the whole of the HH society being accountable to educational scrutiny and health care. That would have been simple protection for both the group in question and more importantly the children raised there. Instead, the required reading and acceptance for would-be members prior to baptism was a book written by Blair Adams. Who Owns the Children is an add-on to become a member of the body of Christ in Homestead Heritage and Heritage Ministries.
I have the book you are speaking of in the above quote and I have read it.

For those reading this forum who have not read the book, this book is mainly a defense of the parent's right to direct the education of their own children, rather than giving over that authority to the government.

Most main stream Christians would not take issue with the idea that it is parents, not the government, that have the right, if push comes to shove, to direct the manner in which their child is raised and educated.

I am well aware that big government types and some public educators would disagree that parents have a right to say much about their own children at all. These types prefer that children be raised
by government "experts". We can look around our culture and see how well THAT is working.*ahem*

What happens, though, when it is the government trained "experts" who are abusing the children?
Several times a month now I read news stories on the web about :
~ coaches in public schools molesting players
~ public school teachers, both male and female, molesting students
~ inappropriate photos taken of children while they are at school, by their own teachers
~ and the list goes on.

Where is the protest for these offenses? Who will provide "educational scrutiny" in these cases, I wonder?

Is the public school system creating these molesters? Something in the teacher's manual, maybe, that drives them to molestation? Or does the fault lie with the individual?

You cannot have it both ways. Either you must say that when any individual commits atrocities against children that we have to look for some one ELSE to blame OTHER than the perpetrator ( his family background, the stress in his life, his church, his non church, etc.) OR we have to say that the individual is responsible for his own deeds.

Thus, if we follow your logic ( and others on this board) since there are monthly, numerous cases of child molestation in public schools around the USA, we must have a full blown investigation into the public school system in its entirety. We must examine every teacher's manual, we must find out why these teachers (through no will of their own) are somehow being molded into child molesters by their government training, or the teacher's union, or something?!

Or, we can face up to the fact that, tragically, there are perverts in many walks of life, and they alone should bear the blame for their crime.

I'm tired of criminals blaming their deeds on others.
Little Red Hen

Fredericksburg, TX

#4166 May 29, 2012
Just by way of further clarification, I bought the book "Who owns the Children" myself, at one of HH's thanksgiving fairs. No one gave it to me. It was for sale, right out in the open, along with a bunch other books that were authored by HH. Every time I have attended the HH fair they have numerous doctrinal books for sale, along with DVD's of some teachings they consider to be vital - like non resistance/non violence. I bought some of those DVDs as well.

I bought the book in question because it sounded interesting.

I didn't even have to use a secret handshake or anything.

Turns out, they accept most major credit cards.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4167 May 29, 2012
[Every time I have attended the HH fair they have numerous doctrinal books for sale, along with DVD's of some teachings they consider to be vital -like non resistance/non violence](Little red hen)

NON-RESISTANCE? NON VIOLENCE?

While we-including myself-worked on 'Who owns the children'-sometimes working throughout the night at Blair's request- there were families being broken up in HH-

Did you know that little red hen?

By the commands of the HH elders those families were broken up.

In one case the elders disfellowshipped the husband when he realized the amount of control that the HH elders had over the lives in HH and he approached the elders to discuss the fact that IT WAS NOT IN LINE WITH THE HOLY BIBLE...

When he came to get his family the wife exclaimed that they were now TAKEN CARE OF BY HH AND THE HH ELDERS!
It turned out that the wife had a large inheritance so the HH eldership was not about to let her go at all!

I still remember the wife and her kids sobbing in the ladies room the week's following the break up of that family.

NOT VERY PRETTY, IS IT?

It was during that time that Blair began the disfellowshipping practice in HH that INCLUDED MINOR CHILDREN.

MINOR CHILDREN!

Of course you will NOT find THAT HH DOCTRINAL information anywhere in HH's literature THAT IS PLACED IN FRONT FOR THE PUBLIC TO SEE.

As far as the HH elders were concerned those HH doctrines would never see the light of day.

They were kept hidden until the internet came along.

Many have posted their testimonies as to what truly happens in HH.

I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4168 May 29, 2012
There is one more issue you should know about
'Who owns the children'-

My name was in the acknowledgements of the first edition of that book.

Today's edition has my name erased-NOT because I requested it; I still poured my heart and soul into HH's work.
The HH elders took my name out.

When you are disfellowshipped, YOU ARE DEAD TO THEM...

Unlike Jesus Christ, who leaves the 99 to go after the one sheep.

There is a TREMENDOUS difference between Jesus Christ who is found in the Holy Bible alone, and the 'Jesus coming to you in the flesh' the HH elders profess themselves to be.

There is no comparison.
I lived to tell the truth

Jackson, NJ

#4169 May 29, 2012
JOHN 10:
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father —and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

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