Calvary Chapel Visalia
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Idaho Falls, ID

#4595 Aug 14, 2010
A letter from Bruce Mumper, Calvary Chapel Fresno regarding the Bob Grenier Calvary Chapel Visalia situation:

"Dear Alex,

I’ve read through your website this morning and felt compelled, both personally and as a local Calvary Chapel pastor, to express my concern and compassion for your family situation. I don’t take the Fresno Bee so I wasn’t aware of the article until somebody mentioned it to me last night. No doubt I’ll be dealing with “inquiring minds” in weeks to come. I can’t possibly know the validity of your allegations against Bob but, I’m well aware that “innocent until proven guilty” goes both ways. For this reason, I mustn’t assume that Bob is the “abuser” that you describe nor, that you are the “embittered, underhanded, tool of the devil” that many “loyal” Calvary Chapelites will assume you to be when they hear of what you’re now doing. I do know that, if even a portion of your allegations of physical and psychological abuse were true, then I can only guess at the emotional sufferings that you’ve gone through. If you’ve lived under such circumstances then I am grateful that you still have your hope in God for your healing.

As far as the concerns you’ve expressed on your website about the Calvary Chapel “non-denominational denomination”, personally, I’m not selling, nor sold on, Calvary Chapel as a church franchise or a pure model for ministry. I think that many of your concerns, and the concerns of other ”Calvary Chapel Recovery” websites that I’ve read through, are quite valid. I couldn’t agree more. Accountability is essential for credibility. I do know, from personal experience, that many pastors aren’t nearly as “transformed” as their celebrated testimonies would indicate. They are not emotionally secure nor psychologically stable people. They may be gifted speakers but they still bear the scars of their own painful past. God’s word still works through them but they’ve never allowed it to do the necessary, and often painful work, on them. They feed the flock with God’s word but it seems that they themselves feed off of something that they get from being the “big fish” in a small pond. Thus, getting “caught” and lifted out into the light is their greatest dread. But in Truth, it’s their greatest need.“I will make you fisher’s of men,” and,“The Truth shall set you free.” I pray that you, and all who visit your website, will seek that Truth and find that freedom. It’s good to know that we’re not alone!!!!
Feel free to post this on your website if you think it would be helpful to anybody. I’m forwarding a copy to Bob in prayers that your family might somehow be made whole.
With deep concern and prayerful support,
Bruce Mumper
Calvary Chapel of Fresno"
Who

Los Angeles, CA

#4596 Aug 14, 2010
CalvaryChapelAbuse_com wrote:
A letter from Bruce Mumper, Calvary Chapel Fresno regarding the Bob Grenier Calvary Chapel Visalia situation:
"Dear Alex,
I’ve read through your website this morning and felt compelled, both personally and as a local Calvary Chapel pastor, to express my concern and compassion for your family situation. I don’t take the Fresno Bee so I wasn’t aware of the article until somebody mentioned it to me last night. No doubt I’ll be dealing with “inquiring minds” in weeks to come. I can’t possibly know the validity of your allegations against Bob but, I’m well aware that “innocent until proven guilty” goes both ways. For this reason, I mustn’t assume that Bob is the “abuser” that you describe nor, that you are the “embittered, underhanded, tool of the devil” that many “loyal” Calvary Chapelites will assume you to be when they hear of what you’re now doing. I do know that, if even a portion of your allegations of physical and psychological abuse were true, then I can only guess at the emotional sufferings that you’ve gone through. If you’ve lived under such circumstances then I am grateful that you still have your hope in God for your healing.
As far as the concerns you’ve expressed on your website about the Calvary Chapel “non-denominational denomination”, personally, I’m not selling, nor sold on, Calvary Chapel as a church franchise or a pure model for ministry. I think that many of your concerns, and the concerns of other ”Calvary Chapel Recovery” websites that I’ve read through, are quite valid. I couldn’t agree more. Accountability is essential for credibility. I do know, from personal experience, that many pastors aren’t nearly as “transformed” as their celebrated testimonies would indicate. They are not emotionally secure nor psychologically stable people. They may be gifted speakers but they still bear the scars of their own painful past. God’s word still works through them but they’ve never allowed it to do the necessary, and often painful work, on them. They feed the flock with God’s word but it seems that they themselves feed off of something that they get from being the “big fish” in a small pond. Thus, getting “caught” and lifted out into the light is their greatest dread. But in Truth, it’s their greatest need.“I will make you fisher’s of men,” and,“The Truth shall set you free.” I pray that you, and all who visit your website, will seek that Truth and find that freedom. It’s good to know that we’re not alone!!!!
Feel free to post this on your website if you think it would be helpful to anybody. I’m forwarding a copy to Bob in prayers that your family might somehow be made whole.
With deep concern and prayerful support,
Bruce Mumper
Calvary Chapel of Fresno"
Well. Not sure why this is at topix.com . It's already at your website
PickAPersonFromYourDistantPastThatYouWantToBl... .
Oh that's it. Slow news day. News cycle's a pain, huh Alex?! Specially you tabloid guys, always gotta be coming up with something new.
Anyways, they coulda read this themselves at your hatesite.com , but that's not enough for you, is it?. It's never enough Alex.
Who

Los Gatos, CA

#4597 Aug 14, 2010
And everything you've written thus far at
http://PickAPersonFromYourDistantPastThatYouW...
could have been written there the first day you "opened."
translation: management of the news cycle, another reason for believing this is a cut-and-dried, Eric Cartman-dressed-as-Hitler hate campaign.
"Respect My AuthoritAH!"
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Idaho Falls, ID

#4598 Aug 14, 2010
How the hell does Bob Grenier Pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia get away with this stuff?

Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, Chuck Smith Sr., Roger Wing of CCOF, Calvary Chapel Visalia, Visalia Police Department, Sheriff Bill Wittman, District Attorney Phil Cline, Calvary Chapel Visalia 501(c)3 Board of Directors including Brent Calvin, Dean at College of the Sequoias, John Millinich and Jeff Fly…along with Raul Ries, Calvary Chapel Diamond Bar, Gary Ruff, Calvary Chapel Foothills and David Rosales, Calvary Chapel Chino Valley:

How the HELL does Bob Grenier continue to walk around freely and continue to fly a Calvary Chapel Dove from literally “his” building?

What is wrong with all of you “men”?

Pathetic. Shameful. You “guys” are all going to be held accountable…in time.

Here is a direct testimony from Faith Lowery made on this site. Faith has shared her story with a Reporter…and her dad has corroborated much of the information. It’s an ugly shameful story of pastoral malpractice and possibly scandal and cover-up by local law enforcement. It certainly begs the question when you have a pastor like Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia who has such deep and close ties with Sheriff Bill Wittman, D.A. Phil Cline and the Visalia Police Department.

Bob, the Teflon Jedi (as me and another Calvary Chapel Pastor have nicknamed him)…continues to get away with wrongdoing like this:

“Then when I was 15, I was raped. I was a virgin.(Despite my “lower social status” in Pastor Bob’s eyes… I was a good girl.) I was traumatized, terrified, no one believed me. Your dad didn’t believe me. Told me I was making it up for attention. If it did happen I was covering up what really happened, etc. Over the course of several months there were many offensive things I was told, none of which were true, SO much more than I can dredge up to write about. His “PROFESSIONAL OPINION” was enough that it was a contributing factor to the man getting off scott free. LITERALLY. It was not solely his fault. I had a taped confession from the guy over the phone, and so much more evidence, and Pastor Bob stood by his opinion, and went in the report, and went all the way to the decision. I will never forget, sitting in a litigation room, being 17 years old, looking at a female attorney who was defending my assailant, who stared at me and said,“Even this girl’s own pastor doesn’t believe her. She has no credibility.”:( There is a lot more I could say, but it just doesn’t matter, to be honest. I abandoned my faith shortly after. I’ve looked back once. I wrote to Paul. But, here I am, 26, still injured by what I’ve mentioned here & the many other things I haven’t dove into, and unable to justify any of it, and truthfully lacking the “answers from God” making it impossible to change how I believe now.”

Again, how the HELL does Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia get away with this stuff? Why? In my opinion, because of all of the “men” listed above who provide Bob with cover and protection and cover-up and protect him.
Who

Los Gatos, CA

#4599 Aug 14, 2010
"[this CyberChurch] ain’t big enough for me and Believe[Alex]…I’ve had it."
by ABC @12:35
"I agree that Believe needs to keep his site’s postings to his site. I would imagine many of us read there and don’t need to have it here as well."
by 56:4 @12:49
Alex responds:
"Correct me if I’m wrong…but I remember being told it was “OK” to post an update once in a while about the other situation……it’s been a while … and I posted an update.
If that policy has changed…it’s news to me…and I won’t post anymore “updates” if that is the consensus. I don’t mean to offend ABC…and I’ll reserve further comment on that update. Heck, remove the update…no problem on my end. I’ll participate regardless["Heck"? W ho are you? Wally Cleaver?]."
by Believe @12:53
"I mean no disrespect but simply because there has been no response form “the other side” isn’t a good enough excuse to allow unproven allegations to be continually aired here. I don’t feel a forum like [this] is the best way to do that. Too often there is the smell of blood in the water and we have erred in the past on this [ie that British dude I told you about earlier, dear reader].
For what ever reasons he has not chosen those courses.Instead, he has chosen to use [this CyberChurch] to keep his cause alive.
As long as Alex continues to have a platform to present his unproven allegations..I say again,[this CyberChurch] isn’t big enough for the two of us."
by ABC @1:22
Who

Los Gatos, CA

#4600 Aug 14, 2010
"Believe [Alex], i think that posting here is serving more as a catharsis for you than it is providing useful information.
by  xdrf @1:59
"But regardless, it’s a matter of principle. We cannot allow unvalidated allegations to go on too long. It is, IMO, a form of spiritual abuse itself."
by ABC @2:18
"For the record, I harbor no ill will towards you or anyone here…it is as I said a matter of principle. I have tried for quite some time to work see your intention and work around it but I see unproven allegations in the end, being counterproductive to your goals and ultimately, doing more harm than good." by ABC @2:21
"That being so it probably is time to stop airing it."
by hutdcj @2:39
"Without disclosing sources, I have it from a very good confidential reliable informant that the matter has been looked into by more than one CC pastor. They have determined there is simply not enough evidence that warrants discipline or any further action. If the allegations are baseless, then giving Alex a platform only harms the reputation of CC.,pastor Chuck, all of us who are CC pastors, as well as his father."
by [email protected]:58
"ABC, I’m with you. I’m not going to make a dramatic exit from [this CyberChurch](done that too many times already) but I cannot participate, or even be an audience, for Alex’s mono-mania anymore. Again, not stomping off, but stepping away for a while."
by cfgjif @ 3:10
"At what point, Alex, does your sin of running a vendetta exceed the sin of your father?"
by cfgjif @3:11
Who

Los Gatos, CA

#4601 Aug 14, 2010
Alex / Believe,
You have a stunning sense of entitlement. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus require me to retain you as a Facebook friend, something which you obviously take for granted. As I said before, I wish you the best, ust at a distance because I choose not to sign on to your worldview of a global conspiracy or evil intent on the part of the Obama administration. To randomly call me out as some kind of hypocrite of intolerance because I choose to focus solely on the 4Gospels and Jesus and not believe in your conspiracy theories is quite a disconnect so don’t waste your time taking potshots at me as it only further erodes your credibility."
by vhhffbj @3:30
Alex says:
"…what is this going to a vote or something?" 
by Believe @ 3:35
"No, because even if we all voted that you’d go to your own website and talk about your own issues, you’d completely ignore every one else’s wishes and keep doing whatever you want here. Voting is pointless in this regard. You don’t seem to want to hear what used to be “the community” is saying to you[ouch!!! Comment by Who]."
by fbjgfb @ 3:37
"That’s enough for today and those who wish to announce their departures can email me."
by CyberPastor @3:38
Wow. Somebody's FINALLY getting a clue!!!
Who

Los Gatos, CA

#4602 Aug 14, 2010
Previous Who posts out of order, but show that Alex' CyberChurch that he attends is sick of him, too
Who

San Jose, CA

#4603 Aug 14, 2010
Mississippi Mass Choir
It wasn't
the nails that
held him
to the cross.
He could have come down
but my soul would
still be lost.
The ransom
was so high
only He could
pay the cost.
It wasn't the nails that
held him to the cross
Who

San Jose, CA

#4604 Aug 14, 2010
Oh and let's not forget, because I'd never reall dig being accused of being "off-message," that
Alex Grenier is a semi- experienced media professional that received special training in college on how to originate, manage and operate multi-tiered, Internet-driven, hate campaigns,
he and others [Alex'sect] are currently engaged in just such a hate campaign,
and Alex is doing this because vacuuming a pawn shop's carpets is not fulfilling work.
If you believe I am wrong, Alex, then
Provide your reasons in the empty box provided for you below, Alex or one of the lackeys. Not asking for a yes or no. That's what I mean by reasins(raisinsaregoodmmm).
That empty box down der where you were posting just a few short weeks ago.
I know you know where that box is.
Go.
Commentary: website will have improved moderation.
Who

San Jose, CA

#4605 Aug 14, 2010
Who wrote:
hsjdgijd said:
Alex / Believe,
You have a stunning sense of entitlement. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus require me to retain you as a Facebook friend, something which you obviously take for granted."
Alex says:
"…what is this going to a vote or something?" 
by Believe @ 3:35
Wow. Somebody's FINALLY getting a clue!!!
no Who, they ain't gotta cluyet. As in Ther'yl. DeClouet. Galactic. Great band . Yooshoodsheckmmout
Who

Los Angeles, CA

#4606 Aug 14, 2010
And just so you know, dear reader, Alex'sect made fun of my mother.
Oh. Ha. Haha. So funny.
Who

Los Angeles, CA

#4607 Aug 14, 2010
Who wrote:
Who says.
1)Going through some old paperwork, i found a lovely poem Alex'sect wrote to me a few short weeks ago.
False Predictions at topix.com
by
Alex Grenier.
Utmost | Thursday Jul 1 | 
"[the topix.com board] is down while they are tracing and erasing Who. Same thing happened the last time. Good luck Who, your time is short."
Who says.
2)Going through some old paperwork, i found a lovely poem Alex'sect wrote to me a few short weeks ago.
False Predictions at topix.com
by
Alex Grenier.
Utmost | Jun 30, 2010 | Reply
Down again due to removing Who's posts and banning him. This will take some time.
Please join us at
PickSomeoneFromYourDistantPastThatYouWantToBl...
Who says?
Then I say so, too
Oh and let's not forget, because I'd never reall dig being accused of being "off-message," that
Alex Grenier is a semi- experienced media professional that received special training in college on how to originate, manage and operate multi-tiered, Internet-driven, cross-Continental (hate those Continentals [British Empiricist inside joke hehe])[inverted ([]) part of the joke (I guess)] hate campaigns,
he and others (his panty-headed lackeys) are currently engaged in just such a hate campaign,
and Alex is doing this because vacuuming a pawn shop's carpets is not fulfilling work.
If you believe I am wrong, then
Provide your reasons in the empty box provided for you below, Alex or one of his panty-headed lackeys.
That empty box down der where you were posting just a few short weeks ago.
I know you know where that box is.
Go.
Commentary: website will have improved moderation.
Who

Los Angeles, CA

#4608 Aug 14, 2010
Who | Saturday Aug 7 | Reply
Who | 1 min ago
Currently reading Otto Dietrich's memoir. He had an interesting insight into Hitler's methods, and I see a definite connection between Hitler and Alex' tactics. They both ran hate campaigns. Read along with me.Caps and small edits courtesy of Who.
"Apparently I had touched him at the quick of his demagogic soul, the true nature of which I was only then beginning to suspect. If I were now to sum up Hitler's method in a few words, I should say this: The essence of it was to get the people into his grip by CUNNINGLY PLANTING FALSE PREMISES INTO THEIR MINDS.
"Hitler had a technique for presenting false or highly debatable premises at the very start of his argument, giving them the air of being indisputable, obvious facts. Building upon these premises, he could then prove to the listener who accepted the premises whatever he wished to prove. From the UNTENABLE BASE his thesis was built up with unassailable logic and PUT FORWARD WITH GREAT FORCE of conviction.
"ANYONE examining the first premises more closely, and challenging THEM rather than accepting [the premises] without question would soon have recognized THE FAULTINESS OF HIS [Hitler/Alex] CONCLUSIONS.
"But challenging the premises was not so easy. To support his view Hitler would marshal an array of facts that could not be checked by most of his listeners. He would DRESS UP [withpanties?] such facts and inflate their importance enormously WHILE HE WOULD EITHER BELITTLE OR ENTIRELY IGNORE THE ARGUMENTS on the other side."
Alex. If I'm calling it right, now you are going to twist Otto Dietrich's observation into being about Vob, when in reality I'm writing on this board to compare HItler's tactics to YOUR tactics."
I always liked magnifying glasses pointed at the sun.
My name is still Who.
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Boise, ID

#4609 Aug 15, 2010
Bob, the Teflon Jedi (as me and another Calvary Chapel Pastor have nicknamed him)…continues to get away with wrongdoing like this:

“Then when I was 15, I was raped. I was a virgin.(Despite my “lower social status” in Pastor Bob’s eyes… I was a good girl.) I was traumatized, terrified, no one believed me. Your dad didn’t believe me. Told me I was making it up for attention. If it did happen I was covering up what really happened, etc. Over the course of several months there were many offensive things I was told, none of which were true, SO much more than I can dredge up to write about. His “PROFESSIONAL OPINION” was enough that it was a contributing factor to the man getting off scott free. LITERALLY. It was not solely his fault. I had a taped confession from the guy over the phone, and so much more evidence, and Pastor Bob stood by his opinion, and went in the report, and went all the way to the decision. I will never forget, sitting in a litigation room, being 17 years old, looking at a female attorney who was defending my assailant, who stared at me and said,“Even this girl’s own pastor doesn’t believe her. She has no credibility.”:( There is a lot more I could say, but it just doesn’t matter, to be honest. I abandoned my faith shortly after. I’ve looked back once. I wrote to Paul. But, here I am, 26, still injured by what I’ve mentioned here & the many other things I haven’t dove into, and unable to justify any of it, and truthfully lacking the “answers from God” making it impossible to change how I believe now.”
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Boise, ID

#4610 Aug 15, 2010
OC Weekly covers the Bob Grenier Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith Sr. Calvary Chapel story here:

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-t...
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Boise, ID

#4611 Aug 15, 2010
Bob often won’t address direct allegations…and uses surrogates to attack who Bob views are his “attackers”. Bob also uses the pulpit to do the same…often framing himself as King David, Nehemiah or Job…and his “enemies” are like those who opposed those men…and those who oppose Bob (those who in actuality are trying to hold him to pastoral accountability). The fact of the matter is, Bob will not sit at the table with his accusers per Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5…he stonewalls, plays the victim and then uses others to slam those attempting to bring proper accountability…while Bob backbites them and poisons the well to whoever will listen to him.

Here’s the link to the Red Alert:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wedesirehim/4785...

Here’s Bob’s recent teachings…King David, Nehemiah, Job…satan attacking…This is no coincidence. He was King David, Nehemiah and Job…and the devil was attacking him…all in the 90′s when a group of associate pastors and elders tried to hold Bob accountable…half the people left “Immanuel Christian Fellowship” after Bob went “Reformed”…only for Bob to change course dramatically…”repent” of Calvinism…clean house of the pastors and elders who had tried to hold him accountable…beg for his Dove back from Pastor Chuck…and put people back in seats with their checkbooks in tow.
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Boise, ID

#4612 Aug 15, 2010
The official Court Transcript has been released. A link to the PDF is posted for your viewing.

Key take-aways:

1. Bob Grenier says he’s King David and doesn’t “hear” or “speak” to or about his “enemies” and “attackers”(all of “us”). Yet, Bob sends an attorney to try and block the release of the police report. Guess he “hears” and “speaks” just fine.

2. The Visalia Police Department has not only watered down and omitted much from the police report we made in February 2010…they’ve also conveniently lost a police report Paul filed a few years ago after Robert threatened to kill him. Coincidence? You be the judge. Bob Grenier has deep ties and friendships in the VPD, Tulare County Sheriff’s Department and Tulare County District Attorney’s Office. Read the ringing endorsements by Sheriff Bill Wittman, D.A. Phil Cline and former VPD Chief of Police for yourself.

3. Paul reported abuse that we believe is not covered under statute. I reported allegations via email that I believe are not covered under statute. Why were these serious allegations not included in the police report? If we file another report…is it going to get “lost” again? Is the D.A. compromised in doing his job? See the Law Enforcement endorsements on pages 6 & 7 of Bob’s book “A Common Miracle.”

http://ccvisalia.com/media/acommonmiracle.pdf

Lots of questions…not very many good answers. Visalia is pretty far from the Coast to be smelling this fishy.
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Boise, ID

#4613 Aug 15, 2010
From the Fresno Bee:

Adult sons of a prominent Visalia preacher say they filed a criminal complaint earlier this year alleging their father physically abused them as boys.

But they say pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia has so much clout that police won't properly investigate -- and won't even give them copies of their own complaint.

Paul and Alex Grenier, two of the sons alleging the abuse, say they're worried that Visalia police don't want to offend their father, who is a volunteer chaplain with the department.

Bob Grenier did not return phone calls about the charges of abuse. Church leaders contacted by The Bee declined to comment, calling it a private family matter. But the allegations -- highlighted on a website created by Alex -- are causing a stir.

The elder Grenier's connections to law enforcement run deep in Visalia. The introduction of his self-published book "A Common Miracle," telling his life story, includes praise from former Visalia Police Chief Bob Carden, Sheriff Bill Wittman and District Attorney Phil Cline. And the staff at Calvary Church includes a retired sheriff's lieutenant.

Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/07/17/2010135/s...
CalvaryChapelAbu se_com

Boise, ID

#4614 Aug 15, 2010
More from the Fresno Bee:

It took a court order for two brothers to finally see the report they gave the Visalia Police Department about allegations that their father, a Visalia pastor, savagely and repeatedly beat them as boys. But the brothers say the report "watered down" the details they gave investigators.

"I felt victimized all over again," Paul Grenier, 29, of Visalia said after reading the two-page narrative.

Grenier and his brother Alex Grenier, 38, of Idaho filed a criminal complaint with Visalia police on Feb. 19 alleging that their father, Bob Grenier, 62, pastor of Calvary Chapel Visalia, beat them hard enough to cause bruises and draw blood.

The brothers spoke with investigators for more than an hour, but were disheartened that the finished report left out what they say is crucial information.

"The report did not include the brutal nature of the many beatings," Alex Grenier wrote in an e-mail. "It was a seriously watered-down version of what we reported and left out the most serious allegations of abuse."

Alex Grenier said some of the most serious allegations left out of the report include that Bob Grenier hit his sons in the face with his fist, hit the boys until they bled, beat one son repeatedly with a tree branch, kicked the boys, pushed them into walls and locked them in closets.

Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/07/27/2020931/p...

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