What is a miracle?
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Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#1 Dec 5, 2013
A miracle is defined as: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

A recent story I read about a Nigerian sailor that survived in the hull of the boat after it sank was credited by many, including the survivor, as a miracle from god.

I don't see it. What happened in this incident is that only 1 of the 12 fisherman survived, 11 other people died. Where's the miracle in that? Did god deem this person better than the other 11? Was god only able to help the one guy due to some sort of limited powers? Didn't god know the boat was going to sink, why didn't he stop that? So god is not benevolent, omnipotent or omniscient if he didn't or couldn't save everyone. 1/12th is a pretty crappy fraction when it comes to saving lives, that's less then a 10% success rate.

The fact is that this guy was trapped in a room with compressed air. The air had nowhere to go, so it remained trapped in this space and this man was fortunate enough to be able to reach this area and thus remain alive. That is not a miracle, that's physics.

We all see stories all the time of some "miraculous" event. A child born with a disease somehow recovers after given no chance of survival. A person given only 3 days to live, lives 40 more years. A small child in an airplane crash is the only survivor. We can't explain why it happens and then the religious immediately attribute it to god as a miracle of his. These are not miracles, these are unexplainable events. This is where the religious stop thinking and give the credit to god but don't blame him for causing it or at least not stopping it (god of the gaps fallacy and special pleading). This is the point where critically thinking doctors and scientists try to figure out what happened so that they can save more lives.

A true miracle would be (if your god is truly omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, omnipresent) no children born with cancer. Every plane that takes off lands safely. Every driver that sets off to work in the morning makes it there and back home every day. Every vessel that sets sail returns with all of it's crew unhurt. That every person in the world would love and understand each other regardless of ethnicity and background. That would be a miracle, but that doesn't happen, so therefore either god is not all powerful, all good and all knowing or he doesn't exist and neither do miracles.

I'll stick with the latter.
Tammy

Douglasville, GA

#2 Dec 6, 2013
It's a miracle that you are a person, alive and conscious of an ever expanding universe where science was allowed to evolve from nothing. You should awaken each day and realize that it is a miracle that you are awake.
This idea that "if God creates miracles, then it's all God's fault when miracles don't happen the way I want them to" just shows how limited your perception is as a human being. By the way, it's a miracle you are a human being.
reality check

Auburn, AL

#3 Dec 6, 2013
Tammy wrote:
It's a miracle that you are a person, alive and conscious of an ever expanding universe where science was allowed to evolve from nothing. You should awaken each day and realize that it is a miracle that you are awake.
This idea that "if God creates miracles, then it's all God's fault when miracles don't happen the way I want them to" just shows how limited your perception is as a human being. By the way, it's a miracle you are a human being.
It will be a miracle if I figure out what your point is.
Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#4 Dec 6, 2013
Tammy wrote:
It's a miracle that you are a person, alive and conscious of an ever expanding universe where science was allowed to evolve from nothing. You should awaken each day and realize that it is a miracle that you are awake.
This idea that "if God creates miracles, then it's all God's fault when miracles don't happen the way I want them to" just shows how limited your perception is as a human being. By the way, it's a miracle you are a human being.
I've got nothing, your incoherent rambling has left me dumbfounded. I've spent the last few minutes attempting to decipher what you've written, I still haven't a clue what you meant. I usually like to stray from the ad hominem arguments, but since your response does not appear to have any intelligible content what other option do i have?
Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#5 Dec 6, 2013
reality check wrote:
<quoted text>
It will be a miracle if I figure out what your point is.
I'm still laughing!!!
Tammy

Douglasville, GA

#6 Dec 6, 2013
Well, obviously you are both idiots, so let me spell it out for you. You have the miracle of being alive as opposed to being dead as a squashed rat. And why is that? Who knows because you are too stupid to be alive, yet nothing has come for you yet.

It is a miracle that you can read and write, although it is pretty obvious that what you read and write has no content and you have no sense of wonder at how you got here or why you are still here. You evidently are both thick.

It would be a miracle if you make it to the end of your natural lives without both winning Darwin awards. Whatever your rambling is, you can't see the forest for the trees. Get out from behind your silly keyboards and go outside. And stay there.
Atheos Aphobos

Auburn, AL

#7 Dec 6, 2013
Tammy wrote:
Well, obviously you are both idiots, so let me spell it out for you. You have the miracle of being alive as opposed to being dead as a squashed rat. And why is that? Who knows because you are too stupid to be alive, yet nothing has come for you yet.
It is a miracle that you can read and write, although it is pretty obvious that what you read and write has no content and you have no sense of wonder at how you got here or why you are still here. You evidently are both thick.
It would be a miracle if you make it to the end of your natural lives without both winning Darwin awards. Whatever your rambling is, you can't see the forest for the trees. Get out from behind your silly keyboards and go outside. And stay there.
More rambling. All you have is an ad hominem attack, you can't argue your point properly so you attack the poster. Who's the idiot?

How is being alive a miracle? It's not an act of god, didn't you take biology?

Bless your heart, I understand that it's easier to read one book than a bunch of hard ones, but you don't have to show your ignorance to the world.
reality check

Douglasville, GA

#8 Dec 6, 2013
"You are too stupid to be alive". What a great quote. So much thought put into it. If I'm too stupid to be alive, I must not be. But the fact I am typing this disproves your entire theory. Tammy, I was just trying to get you to clarify your stance. Mine is that there is no supreme being, creator, master magician, fairy goddess, tooth fairy, etc. Yours is...well, I'm not sure other than you use the word miracle a lot. Life is not a miracle if by miracle you mean divine creation. Life however is wonderful when you consider the odds against it in the natural universe. But since the universe is infinitely bigger than you or I can grasp, the odds are it is going to happen sooner or later. It's a chemical process really.
Uh oh

Douglasville, GA

#9 Dec 6, 2013
Atheos Aphobos wrote:
A miracle is defined as: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
A recent story I read about a Nigerian sailor that survived in the hull of the boat after it sank was credited by many, including the survivor, as a miracle from god.
I don't see it. What happened in this incident is that only 1 of the 12 fisherman survived, 11 other people died. Where's the miracle in that? Did god deem this person better than the other 11? Was god only able to help the one guy due to some sort of limited powers? Didn't god know the boat was going to sink, why didn't he stop that? So god is not benevolent, omnipotent or omniscient if he didn't or couldn't save everyone. 1/12th is a pretty crappy fraction when it comes to saving lives, that's less then a 10% success rate.
The fact is that this guy was trapped in a room with compressed air. The air had nowhere to go, so it remained trapped in this space and this man was fortunate enough to be able to reach this area and thus remain alive. That is not a miracle, that's physics.
We all see stories all the time of some "miraculous" event. A child born with a disease somehow recovers after given no chance of survival. A person given only 3 days to live, lives 40 more years. A small child in an airplane crash is the only survivor. We can't explain why it happens and then the religious immediately attribute it to god as a miracle of his. These are not miracles, these are unexplainable events. This is where the religious stop thinking and give the credit to god but don't blame him for causing it or at least not stopping it (god of the gaps fallacy and special pleading). This is the point where critically thinking doctors and scientists try to figure out what happened so that they can save more lives.
A true miracle would be (if your god is truly omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, omnipresent) no children born with cancer. Every plane that takes off lands safely. Every driver that sets off to work in the morning makes it there and back home every day. Every vessel that sets sail returns with all of it's crew unhurt. That every person in the world would love and understand each other regardless of ethnicity and background. That would be a miracle, but that doesn't happen, so therefore either god is not all powerful, all good and all knowing or he doesn't exist and neither do miracles.
I'll stick with the latter.
A miracle is something you experience personally. It's when your soul is stirred and logic cannot be explained. Whether it happens directly to you or through something you witness, or an account you read or are told. It's a supernatural occurrence that defies human understanding and when you recognize it, you just know.
Reality

Douglasville, GA

#10 Dec 7, 2013
Atheos Aphobos wrote:
A miracle is defined as: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
A recent story I read about a Nigerian sailor that survived in the hull of the boat after it sank was credited by many, including the survivor, as a miracle from god.
I don't see it. What happened in this incident is that only 1 of the 12 fisherman survived, 11 other people died. Where's the miracle in that? Did god deem this person better than the other 11? Was god only able to help the one guy due to some sort of limited powers? Didn't god know the boat was going to sink, why didn't he stop that? So god is not benevolent, omnipotent or omniscient if he didn't or couldn't save everyone. 1/12th is a pretty crappy fraction when it comes to saving lives, that's less then a 10% success rate.
The fact is that this guy was trapped in a room with compressed air. The air had nowhere to go, so it remained trapped in this space and this man was fortunate enough to be able to reach this area and thus remain alive. That is not a miracle, that's physics.
We all see stories all the time of some "miraculous" event. A child born with a disease somehow recovers after given no chance of survival. A person given only 3 days to live, lives 40 more years. A small child in an airplane crash is the only survivor. We can't explain why it happens and then the religious immediately attribute it to god as a miracle of his. These are not miracles, these are unexplainable events. This is where the religious stop thinking and give the credit to god but don't blame him for causing it or at least not stopping it (god of the gaps fallacy and special pleading). This is the point where critically thinking doctors and scientists try to figure out what happened so that they can save more lives.
A true miracle would be (if your god is truly omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, omnipresent) no children born with cancer. Every plane that takes off lands safely. Every driver that sets off to work in the morning makes it there and back home every day. Every vessel that sets sail returns with all of it's crew unhurt. That every person in the world would love and understand each other regardless of ethnicity and background. That would be a miracle, but that doesn't happen, so therefore either god is not all powerful, all good and all knowing or he doesn't exist and neither do miracles.
I'll stick with the latter.
You are describing Heaven and if you accept Jesus as your savior , you will live there for eturnaty.
Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#11 Dec 7, 2013
Uh oh wrote:
<quoted text> A miracle is something you experience personally. It's when your soul is stirred and logic cannot be explained. Whether it happens directly to you or through something you witness, or an account you read or are told. It's a supernatural occurrence that defies human understanding and when you recognize it, you just know.
Ok, just so that we are clear, a miracle is a "personal experience" that either:
A) happens to me personally and directly, or;
B) happens to someone else and the account is written down and I read it, or;
C) happens to someone else and the account is recounted to me by some other person.

Am I right in this assessment of your description?

Now, you also stated "when you recognize it, you just know". This statement makes me believe that the determination of whether something is or is not a miracle is completely left up to me. Is there not a standard test or some guru or yogi that I can talk to about it and get a second opinion? I mean, I've never been to miracle school and don't have a degree in the subject.

So, in essence, you describe a miracle as a "personal experience" that I may or may not have experienced and I am the sole source to determine whether it is a miracle or not based on a feeling I get from said incident.
Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#12 Dec 7, 2013
Reality wrote:
<quoted text> You are describing Heaven and if you accept Jesus as your savior , you will live there for eturnaty.
Why would we need planes, boats and cars in heaven?
reality check

Douglasville, GA

#13 Dec 7, 2013
Atheos Aphobos wrote:
Ok, just so that we are clear, a miracle is a "personal experience" that either:
A) happens to me personally and directly, or;
B) happens to someone else and the account is written down and I read it, or;
C) happens to someone else and the account is recounted to me by some other person.

Am I right in this assessment of your description?

Now, you also stated "when you recognize it, you just know". This statement makes me believe that the determination of whether something is or is not a miracle is completely left up to me. Is there not a standard test or some guru or yogi that I can talk to about it and get a second opinion? I mean, I've never been to miracle school and don't have a degree in the subject.

So, in essence, you describe a miracle as a "personal experience" that I may or may not have experienced and I am the sole source to determine whether it is a miracle or not based on a feeling I get from said incident.
Unless you want to be a saint. In that case you have to perform a verified, bonafide, straight up miracle.
Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#14 Dec 7, 2013
reality check wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless you want to be a saint. In that case you have to perform a verified, bonafide, straight up miracle.
Oh yeah, the saint clause.
Uh oh

Douglasville, GA

#15 Dec 7, 2013
reality check wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless you want to be a saint. In that case you have to perform a verified, bonafide, straight up miracle.
I don't really get the saint part of religion. But yes, miracles definitely have a strong personal component. It's tough to understand them if one has been damaged by others' religiosity or skewed by ridiculous doctrine.
Being open to the idea of witnessing a miracle is a recommended path. I hope you are blessed by one soon. It is humbling and inspiring.
Atheos Aphobos

Douglasville, GA

#16 Dec 7, 2013
Uh oh wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't really get the saint part of religion. But yes, miracles definitely have a strong personal component. It's tough to understand them if one has been damaged by others' religiosity or skewed by ridiculous doctrine.
Being open to the idea of witnessing a miracle is a recommended path. I hope you are blessed by one soon. It is humbling and inspiring.
Give me an example of a "miracle" that I can examine.
reality check

Goodwater, AL

#17 Dec 7, 2013
Atheos Aphobos wrote:
<quoted text>Give me an example of a "miracle" that I can examine.
You can only experience a miracle if you are too scared to accept the pure randomness of the universe.
reality check

Goodwater, AL

#18 Dec 7, 2013
"Personal component" = I don't care what you say. I believe in magic.
HCT

Douglasville, GA

#19 Dec 7, 2013
Its something that happens that we cannot explain.Someday believers will understand all of this crazyness , while your body is rotting and your soul no longer exist .
Uh oh

Douglasville, GA

#20 Dec 7, 2013
reality check wrote:
"Personal component" = I don't care what you say. I believe in magic.
Magic is completely different and I don't get involved with it.

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