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Guy

Fort Lee, NJ

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#1
Jul 31, 2012
 
How can you logically justify an almost 75% rate increase with the new transition to VTMUA from united water? How can a one bedroom condo, or even a studio condo that technically has no bedroom, use the same amount of water as a single family home with multiple residents? A single family home can have the added use of pools, lawn sprinklers and garden hoses, beyond that or general everyday use. A condo by definition does not have any of the previously listed added uses. Township taxes are based on multiple elements such as size of lot, quantity of toilets, etc. and are quantified accordingly. VTMUA is basing their "EDU" rate on a single building classification with no distinction between a 900 sq.ft. dwelling and a 5,000 sq.ft. dwelling. This is despite the fact that the township has record of all property information for tax purposes, which includes the amount of bathrooms in every building. To not even distinguish the difference between a 1, 2 or 3 bathroom dwelling unit is ridiculous and is counter to how the town taxes residents.

Does anyone else find this absurd?
Springishere

Sussex, NJ

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#2
Aug 1, 2012
 
Vernon is absurd.
Condo Owner

United States

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#3
Aug 1, 2012
 
I filed a complaint with the BPU regarding the absurd rate increase. I suggest others do the same.

http://www.nj.gov/bpu/assistance/complaints/i...

I also cannot understand how a condo and a single family home can be classified as the same "EDU" to determine rates.
Thinking Resident

Newton, NJ

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#4
Aug 1, 2012
 
The VTMUA was formed primarily to manage the sewers although I suppose it could broaden its interest into garbage. The relevance of whether a pool is present oe whether lawn sprinkler or garden hoses are used is lost on me, that water is unlikely to find its way down the sewer pipe to the treatment plant.
Multiple Condo Owner

Newark, NJ

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#5
Aug 1, 2012
 
I haven't heard anything about the VTMUA expanded to include garbage. Even if it did include garbage, that still won't ease the pain for Great Gorge Village residents who currently pay anywhere from 250 -300 a month for maintenance which includes garbage pick up, on top of this new fee of 840 a year. I personally am considering walking away from everything I own in GGV. My tenants used to pick up the water and sewer fees, now. While I understand Vernon's desire to generate revenue. I will now be responsible for $2500 in EDU fees annually, plus taxes on all three properties, in addition to the upwards of $9300 in maintenance fees. I don't see myself even breaking even at any point in the future. Good job Vernon. Good way to encourage more foreclosures and short sales, all while losing revunue on unpaid taxes. I would like to know how the EDU charge was estimated.
Owner

Lodi, NJ

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#6
Aug 2, 2012
 
Wait what new fee are you talking about? I havent heard anything about an additional 840 a year.. IF thats the case I will just like you be walking away.. You can make people hemorrhage money. The place is a dump. Half the units are short sales or foreclosures.. Things are going to get way worse in there before they get better. And they can only blame themselves..
Thinking Resident

Newton, NJ

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#7
Aug 2, 2012
 
It is not a new fee but rather an increase to the sewer charges following the buyout of United Water by the VTMUA. The increase is perfectly legal as the VTMUA is not governed to the same standards by the BPU who in turn would have capped any increases by United Water.

I do not know whether the VTMUA which is managing the expanded sewer system in Vernon including the recent expansion is balancing their budget on the backs of the existing users or whether those users had a free ride up until now.( Remember, somehow though, the approxiamately $50M that it cost to build this system has to be repaid). If the existing users are subsidizing the others then the expansion was a very bad idea, much worse than some already currently think. I do not see much difference in overall costs, not only sewerage but administration between a condo or a single family residence. The bigger question to me is whether the larger (generally commercial) users are getting sudsidized. If you conclude they are, you then need to push for meters (with their upfront and administrative costs) and hope that the skew was enough to make a sizable difference.
Owner

Bernardsville, NJ

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#8
Aug 2, 2012
 
United water charges were roughly 150 - 200 a quarter for 1 person in a 1 bedroom condo (water and sewer combined). I don't care who or what needs to be "repaid.". That is absurd to make the sewer charges for the year alone, higher than the previous companies yearly charges combined. I will be at the town meeting on August 20th. I urge others to do the same. You can spin it anyway you want... Its wrong.. The infrastructure has been in place for 20-30 years in the condos. Your going to charge 1100 plus units $840 to have water. The whole thing has nothing but greed written all over it..... The economy is shot and Vernon decides its going to create revenue by screwing its taxpayers that aren't foreclosing even further. Good idea....
Not applicable

Sparta, NJ

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#9
Aug 2, 2012
 
"I do not see much difference in overall costs, not only sewerage but administration between a condo or a single family residence."
Administrative, understandably no difference. But to classify a single bedroom, single bathroom condo or house the same as a dwelling unit that has multiple bedrooms and bathrooms is illogical. VTMUA is an entity of the municipality and therefor has all records on the quantity of bathrooms and bedrooms in every home. You are basically saying that when a septic system is designed for a home they shouldn't calculate for the quantity of rooms, nah just use a flat average number across the board.
More rooms = more people = more sewage.
Thinking Resident

Newton, NJ

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#10
Aug 2, 2012
 
If it were me, I would attend and speak out at a VTMUA meeting and see what happens before going to the Council. I am 100% certain the Council will say talk to the MUA and it is not their (the Council's) problem to solve, at least if you have approached them first you have soon comeback. The press will also have a better story.

As to a EDU definition, given the sewerage capacity is there, you really think the throughput at that level is a major cost? Sorry to rain on your parade, but very doubtful in my opinion.

Incidently no greed involved, do your research and find out what was built when and what it was built for, there is a possibility that the existing users are subsidizing the expansion, you need to be able to show that. Bigger probability to me anyway is the small user can be demonstrated to be subsidizing the big (commercial) users.
Yea

Sussex, NJ

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#11
Aug 2, 2012
 

Judged:

1

Thinking Resident wrote:
If it were me, I would attend and speak out at a VTMUA meeting and see what happens before going to the Council. I am 100% certain the Council will say talk to the MUA and it is not their (the Council's) problem to solve, at least if you have approached them first you have soon comeback. The press will also have a better story.
As to a EDU definition, given the sewerage capacity is there, you really think the throughput at that level is a major cost? Sorry to rain on your parade, but very doubtful in my opinion.
Incidently no greed involved, do your research and find out what was built when and what it was built for, there is a possibility that the existing users are subsidizing the expansion, you need to be able to show that. Bigger probability to me anyway is the small user can be demonstrated to be subsidizing the big (commercial) users.
Yea..... the town is taking over the water and sewer from united water out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't stand to turn a profit by charging 2 times what united water did.No greed involved what so ever... United Water wasn't going broke supply water to GGC for the last 25 years... Sorry to rain on YOUR parade but no one cares what you would do, what research you would do on what it costs. You can't, especially in these economic times, siphon cash from the middle class to fund GREED.. If you believe you know it all thinking resident. Know enough to mind your own business. As they say if your not going to be part of the solution....Well you know the rest.. 2 things you probably enjoy - fox news, and the sound of your own voice..
Waterboy

Sussex, NJ

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#12
Aug 2, 2012
 
Thinking Resident wrote:
It is not a new fee but rather an increase to the sewer charges following the buyout of United Water by the VTMUA. The increase is perfectly legal as the VTMUA is not governed to the same standards by the BPU who in turn would have capped any increases by United Water.
I do not know whether the VTMUA which is managing the expanded sewer system in Vernon including the recent expansion is balancing their budget on the backs of the existing users or whether those users had a free ride up until now.( Remember, somehow though, the approxiamately $50M that it cost to build this system has to be repaid). If the existing users are subsidizing the others then the expansion was a very bad idea, much worse than some already currently think. I do not see much difference in overall costs, not only sewerage but administration between a condo or a single family residence. The bigger question to me is whether the larger (generally commercial) users are getting sudsidized. If you conclude they are, you then need to push for meters (with their upfront and administrative costs) and hope that the skew was enough to make a sizable difference.
Some of us in the area have meters. Prior to the meters United Water was charging a flat rate. In my building on the flat rate it was costing us almost $250 a month! After the meters, the cost is between $35 -$45 a month! I would definitely call that a sizable difference, wouldn't you?
Thinking Resident

Newton, NJ

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#13
Aug 3, 2012
 
Waterboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Some of us in the area have meters. Prior to the meters United Water was charging a flat rate. In my building on the flat rate it was costing us almost $250 a month! After the meters, the cost is between $35 -$45 a month! I would definitely call that a sizable difference, wouldn't you?
That is the sort of evidence you need. What is the proposed rate now or is this dwelling located elsewhere in which case you would neeed to compare situations and overheads which would be problematic.

As to "Yea", good luck learning to clench, you will get nowhere with that attitude. As to whose business it is, the Town of Vernon is on the hook for $50M which has to be repaid, whether in the sewer area or not, everyone on Vernon has a vested interest. The taxpayers who are not users will not be keen to pick up the tab an that is the other available option. No huge amounts of money are going to be made running the MUA given the debts, overheads and small size of the VTMUA. The question becomes what charge can be reasonably justified given ALL the facts. I know you do not take advice well, but at least come armed with examples if you can that you are being overcharged compared to simular sub systems in SCMUA or even other systems in NJ if you can.
Owner

Bernardsville, NJ

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#14
Aug 3, 2012
 
Thinking Resident wrote:
<quoted text>
That is the sort of evidence you need. What is the proposed rate now or is this dwelling located elsewhere in which case you would neeed to compare situations and overheads which would be problematic.
As to "Yea", good luck learning to clench, you will get nowhere with that attitude. As to whose business it is, the Town of Vernon is on the hook for $50M which has to be repaid, whether in the sewer area or not, everyone on Vernon has a vested interest. The taxpayers who are not users will not be keen to pick up the tab an that is the other available option. No huge amounts of money are going to be made running the MUA given the debts, overheads and small size of the VTMUA. The question becomes what charge can be reasonably justified given ALL the facts. I know you do not take advice well, but at least come armed with examples if you can that you are being overcharged compared to simular sub systems in SCMUA or even other systems in NJ if you can.
Do you even live in the area? Are you affected by the problem personally? Or do you just troll message boards all day trying to throw your 2 cents in?
Thinking Resident

Newton, NJ

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#15
Aug 3, 2012
 
Owner wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even live in the area? Are you affected by the problem personally? Or do you just troll message boards all day trying to throw your 2 cents in?
Yes, Yes and No. But back to the point, I was told this afternoon the rate used to be calculated on an incomplete system and therefore did not include all the costs, in other words you have had a free ride and it was ending anyway nowe the system is complete regardless of the Town buying the system! Personally I want to verify that, but if you wish continue to mouth off without the facts, perhaps you could pay over some of the found money if it turns out to be true?
VernonBlows

Vernon, NJ

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#16
Aug 4, 2012
 
I recently called Vernon to discuss this issue..

I asked them how they based this, when there was no waste water analysis done, and they "assumed" 4 people lived in a place that in reality not that many people reside in.

The woman whom i spoke to was very rude, and uncaring.

I have lodged a complain with the Board Of Utilities with the State of New Jersey...we shall see what comes of it.
Sewer Charge Breakdown

Newark, NJ

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#17
Aug 6, 2012
 
Does anyone know how many gallons per day the EDU is based on? I'm assuming 250 gallons per day(but have been unable to speak to anyone educated in wastewater standards at the VTMUA), which would in turn give a rate of 0.009333333 cents per gallon of discharged water/waste. This rate is in fact comparable to the rates charged by United Water and throughout the State of NJ by other utilities. In order to come up with a baseline figure, I took an average of my bills throughout 2011, and came up with a combined rate of 0.01335122 for both the sewer facility and additional sewer charges. This number is based on an estimate of 10,250 gallons per quarter or approximately 114 gallons per day.

This is where the increase in cost is coming from. If in fact the EDU is based on 250 gallons per day, VTMUA is assuming that most residents are producing DOUBLE the amount of waste than is in fact being sent to the SCMUA. 10,250 gallons per quarter which was metered by United Water has mysteriously been increased to 22,500 gallons per quarter.
Flushing our money away-

Newton, NJ

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#18
Aug 6, 2012
 
I am an owner in GGV for the last 8yrs. I have seen taxes go up, maintenace fees rise, and,unfortunately, property values decline. Now, on top of all this, we are expected to pay more of our hard earned money for services that are "assumed" we will use. I am a single person that works away from Vernon and I am gone 12 hrs. out of the day. I know I am not alone in this situation. Many of these condos are occupied by single people. My average water & sewer usage from the past 12 mos. is only $650. Now, I will be expected to pay $850 to VTMUA plus my United Water of approx.$40/quarter. An increase of almost $400/yr for the same services. WHY??? and why are meters not being used??? Everyone, please attend the next VTMUA meeting, August 20th,Monday, 7pm.
concerned citizen

Caldwell, NJ

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#19
Aug 6, 2012
 
WTF... Wow, I thought I was already paying too
much for water in GGV. I am a weekender and now
I am going to be forced to pay more!!!! You cant make this S*&^ up. only in nj. The economy is not good, food, living expenses, water sewage bills, maintenance, tolls. I'm sure have have left a bunch out. I can't wait till my daughter goes to college. I am out of the state, going to somewhere
the cost of living is less. We keep getting hosed.
I think I will go to the meeting and see what type
of scum we are dealing with. I wonder if the price will help the mayor get his raise. LOLLOL.
Take Note

Newton, NJ

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#20
Aug 9, 2012
 
You might not like it, but is pretty much explains the increase is NOT Vernon's fault
http://advertisernewsnorth.com/apps/pbcs.dll/... --
Quotes from the article:
"no increases were made by United Water over the last 10 or 12 years"
"(T)he need to meet increased fees charged to the MUA for its connection to the county's Utility Authority, known as SCMUA". "(T)he rates charged by the Sussex County Municipal Utilities Authority (SCMUA), which handles its wastewater treatment, have doubled. Last year’s bill from SCMUA was $765,000, which represents 85 percent of the Vernon MUA's expenses".
"The Vernon MUA “can only make money to pay bills.” It is not a money making entity".
"(The Vernon MUA) is billing based on a rate recommended by the state's Board of Public Utilities".
"The (Vernon) commissioners do not receive salary or benefits......"
Some things that are not said are that SCMUA is billing based on total allowance not throughput, further the SCMUA Commissioners are paid quite well and those people ARE political hacks.

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