Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

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Cleveland, OH

#24505 Apr 30, 2013
poundsand wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Corona, CA, you can post under all the aliases you want. It doesn't hide the fact that your a liberal, union, democrat shill. Get out of our forum and stick to bankrupting your own corrupt state.
Hey Numnuts do you pay attention to Just Watchings city???? It says New Carlisle. I'm not from Cali nor am I a Liberal. I'm a conservative male in my late 40s right here from Springboro. I believe in supporting my local teachers even though they are Union members. I believe they need a Union to protect themselves because the people who make major decisions in their line of work often have no experience in education. Case in point, the current BOE. Unlike the few ultra conservative Springboro folks on here who hate paying any taxes I don't mind paying a few extra dollars a year in taxes to pay teachers a salary. Now, I wish the state of Ohio would change the way public schools are funded but I know that's not going to happen. Politicians have ruined education and it makes me sad. I can't believe some of the things that people say about teachers, the lies, the inflated numbers, and all the other hateful things said about them. There are so many advantages to being a private sector employee like the ability to go and get a higher paying job if they are qualified that teachers don't have. A teacher with more than 10 years experience cannot change school districts because the new school district will not hire a teacher with that many years of service. Look at the 1st Question on a Springboro application. That proves my point right there. I understand that teachers have perks that private sector employees don't have but it is nothing like what the people on this blog say constantly about it. The schedule, the summers, and the decent pay are a few, but you people on here make them out to be millionaires. Like just watching always posting what their salaries WOULD be if they worked more days, well the fact is they don't and that is why their salaries are what they are. Don't forget about their benefits some like to say, why is that never mentioned about private sector employees? My wife's company employees have to pay 85% of their health insurance, what people will sometimes not mention is her boss gave her a pay raise that equals the cost of the insurance. A conservative will argue that she has to pay 85% when in reality she pays zero but the 85% makes their argument sound better. Just like all of Just Watching's numbers he loves to post. My point is, public employees and private sector employees all have perks to their jobs, the downside to it all is that tax payers have to pay public employee salaries and they have the ability to complain about it.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24506 Apr 30, 2013
Since November 2008

Delphi Plants Close
GM Plants Close
Jamestown Industries Closes
Appelton Paper Closes
Cooper Tires Closes
NCR closes Dayton
Wright Patterson looking at 14,000 furloughed workers for up to 22 days on top of those already terminated..

Our teachers since that time have seen their pay rise from 5%-17%.

I would imagine nearly everyone of the thousands of people above would love to trade places.

I wonder how many of these ex union workers replaced the jobs they had with one of equal or comparable pay and benefits?

I also wonder how many were making between $30 and $70 per hour?

While every one else struggles to keep their heads above water, our teachers are crying because in the same time period their pay "only" went up 5-17%.

And that does not include the ala carte menu for extra supplemental money.

Plus they always have summers off to do something else for more pay if they so desire.
borobeef

Girard, OH

#24507 Apr 30, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.
What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?
How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?
Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.
For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.
Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
Tell us again how you are a value at the above prices with the results we are seeing in our schools.
How much does Dave Petroni charge an hour for charter school consulting?
Hey Numbnuts

Grafton, OH

#24508 Apr 30, 2013
Numbnuts, the difference between public and private sectors is whose cash you are playing with when all is said and done. If a company owner wants to spend his money any way he pleases that is his business. In the public sector there isn't any competition, it's pretty much a guaranteed market share regardless if you are good or bad .
Unions just mean bloat as you can't get rid of anybody without spending a ton of money and time. Teachers are not starving and work some pretty Cush hours. They might have been underpaid 30 years ago but they sure aren't now at $30-$70 an hour. You can't argue a second grade teacher should make more than a engineer with the same amount of experience. I saw the classes elementary ed took and the classes I took.
Not even close
borobeef

Girard, OH

#24509 Apr 30, 2013
Hey Numbnuts wrote:
Numbnuts, the difference between public and private sectors is whose cash you are playing with when all is said and done. If a company owner wants to spend his money any way he pleases that is his business. In the public sector there isn't any competition, it's pretty much a guaranteed market share regardless if you are good or bad .
Unions just mean bloat as you can't get rid of anybody without spending a ton of money and time. Teachers are not starving and work some pretty Cush hours. They might have been underpaid 30 years ago but they sure aren't now at $30-$70 an hour. You can't argue a second grade teacher should make more than a engineer with the same amount of experience. I saw the classes elementary ed took and the classes I took.
Not even close
so....how much did you say Dave Petroni charges per hour for charter school consulting? i didn't see his hourly rste podted in your response.
appreciate

Youngstown, OH

#24510 Apr 30, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Since November 2008
Delphi Plants Close
GM Plants Close
Jamestown Industries Closes
Appelton Paper Closes
Cooper Tires Closes
NCR closes Dayton
Wright Patterson looking at 14,000 furloughed workers for up to 22 days on top of those already terminated..
Our teachers since that time have seen their pay rise from 5%-17%.
I would imagine nearly everyone of the thousands of people above would love to trade places.
I wonder how many of these ex union workers replaced the jobs they had with one of equal or comparable pay and benefits?
I also wonder how many were making between $30 and $70 per hour?
While every one else struggles to keep their heads above water, our teachers are crying because in the same time period their pay "only" went up 5-17%.
And that does not include the ala carte menu for extra supplemental money.
Plus they always have summers off to do something else for more pay if they so desire.
With a majority of the teachers getting no raises for last three years. Look at the numbers in the "Transparency Project". You like to refer to that all the time, please refute that a majority (over 50%) of the teachers have not had a raise in three years.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24511 Apr 30, 2013
appreciate wrote:
<quoted text>
With a majority of the teachers getting no raises for last three years. Look at the numbers in the "Transparency Project". You like to refer to that all the time, please refute that a majority (over 50%) of the teachers have not had a raise in three years.
They all look like they got raises in FY 2011.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24512 Apr 30, 2013
Freedom of speech wrote:
<quoted text>
The data is correct but the assumptions from the data are incorrect. Why bother trying to explain that to people who don't want to listen. It is easier to believe that our schools are failing. Which in turn makes is easier to not support our schools.
Go ahead, humor us with your rendition.

Explain to the great unwashed why the union thinks that 80% of the 8th grade receiving a D or F on the Ohio Achievement Assessment Math test is really good.

These are children who out of 50 points on the test got less than 37 of them correct.

Remember now, between 65-75% of the test is low to moderately complex.

That translates to your 37 questions, the basic parts that should have been learned in the previous 8 years.

This test is not an MIT differential calculus final.

Neither I. nor anyone I am aware of, wants our schools to fail, we want them to be all they can be.

We all want all of our children to get the education our taxpayers are funding.

Unfortunately many are stuck in a rut paying homage to the EUPHEMISMS the state endorses.

And while we do, 2000 plus children are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.

Trouble is PROFICIENT = FAILURE
Harmful Illusions

Piqua, OH

#24513 Apr 30, 2013
Freedom of speech wrote:
<quoted text>
The data is correct but the assumptions from the data are incorrect. Why bother trying to explain that to people who don't want to listen. It is easier to believe that our schools are failing. Which in turn makes is easier to not support our schools.
Is the Illusion of Excellence Harmful?
Districts love to point to their fine report card rating as evidence of high performance. Real estate agents love to tout those excellent ratings as proof that a home in the community is a good value. But at some point, Ohioans may want to take a serious look at what is really happening in their school districts. Parents and taxpayers need to know that “excellent” may not be as advertised. It is a disservice to the general public, to parents and especially to children when we pretend that more and more districts are doing a stellar job, when they are not. The stakes are much higher than they are for 1st grade soccer players, who are all superstars. Policymakers must acknowledge that there are serious flaws in an evaluation system that says that the majority of districts are doing excellent work, when all of the data comparing Ohio students nationally and internationally paint a very different picture.
A major disconnect exists when Ohio’s standards suggest that 51.7% of 8th graders are performing at an accelerated or advanced level in reading and the national data suggest that only a small fraction of these 8th graders are anywhere near an advanced level.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24514 Apr 30, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
How much does Dave Petroni charge an hour for charter school consulting?
As much as the person who hired him believes his value to be.

No more, no less.

A transaction whereby both the seller of the labor and the buyer of the labor both feel as though the got what they needed.

It is how 93% of the workers in the private sector in America conduct their lives.

Historically, the rapid growth of public employee unions since the 1960s has served to mask an even more dramatic decline in private-sector union membership.
Harmful Illusions

Piqua, OH

#24515 Apr 30, 2013
Policy Implications:

There is another critical reason t take a hard look at what constitutes an excellent district. Policymakers are increasingly inclined to waive education standards, categorical spending constraints, and other requirements for districts that appear to be high performing. The argument is, why tie the hands of administrators in districts that are so effective? Just give them a pot of money and let them continue to do their excellent job. Recently, Ohio policymakers raised the ante even further by distributing a monetary reward to districts rated excellent. In the current biennial budget, each district rated excellent or excellent with distinction received extra per pupil funding.
The stakes are higher now when it comes to receiving this excellent rating. But what if these highly rated districts aren’t really doing an excellent job? Who suffers the consequences? As the bar for excellence declines and the stakes for failing to achieve that rating rise, districts are provided with increasing incentives to manipulative the system to maintain their high ratings. As one member from the Shawnee Local School District recently shared with the Ohio House Education committee, Who suffers the consequences? As the bar for excellence declines and the stakes for failing to achieve that rating rise, districts are provided with increasing incentives to manipulative the system to maintain their high ratings. As one member from the Shawnee Local School District recently shared with the Ohio House Education committee,

The quality of the current education system is measured and rated on test scores –specifically reading and math scores—and graduation rates which are flawed inefficient and unreliable. Testing ratings and graduation requirements can easily be manipulated to imply a higher quality of education than actual performance.
(Ohio House Education Committee, Speptember 21, 2011, testimony
on HB 136)

In light of this commentary, Ohio’s performance on the Algebra II assessment pilot is an example of how the state has kept standards low and buried efforts both to raise standards and to provide direct comparisons to other states. The pilot program run by the American Diploma Project, widely publicized in 2005, was designed to evaluate students in multiple states for true college math readiness on the basis of cut scores that could not be manipulated by districts or state education agencies. In 2009, Ohio students who participated in the project scored poorly-86.6% scored at below proficient levels. Ohio’s participation in the project declined sharply in 2010 (American Diploma Project). In fact, there appears to be little or any mention of this exam, which once was touted as the first step toward ensuring that Ohio students were truly prepared for college.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24516 Apr 30, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, 89% of the teachers haven't had a raise in 3 years, not one year as you claim. 404 of the 454 listed on the website (the list is back up there after being removed for some reason). Only 50 have received raises in the past three years and it looks like 38 of them were from FY11-FY12. So only 12 of 454 have received a raise over the past two years or 3%.
Just the first three teachers on the list, but it carries on throughout the entire roster

Teacher..........FY 2010 pay,,,,,,,,,,FY 2011 pay..........FY 2012 pay
.
#1 on list..........54,091.......... 56,078..........56,638
.
#2 on list..........45,105.......... 46,833..........47,301
.
#3 on list..........60,831.......... 60,831..........61,439

The list goes on and on like this, each year they have been getting more money, some more than others, but in the past five years, since 2008, compensation cost have risen between 5-17%.

Teaching is a well paid profession and sometimes wages get a little ahead of the market.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24517 Apr 30, 2013
appreciate wrote:
<quoted text>
With a majority of the teachers getting no raises for last three years. Look at the numbers in the "Transparency Project". You like to refer to that all the time, please refute that a majority (over 50%) of the teachers have not had a raise in three years.
Look at the teachers pay in 2010 then 2011 then 2012

Between those time periods just about all of the teachers made more money than they did in 2010.

That increase is commonly known as a raise.
raises

Springboro, OH

#24518 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Look at the teachers pay in 2010 then 2011 then 2012
Between those time periods just about all of the teachers made more money than they did in 2010.
That increase is commonly known as a raise.
Love the slight of hand.......a raise is commonly known as when you get a certain rate per hour or percentage above what you made last year and it compounds into future years. You added in the 1% "bonus" to the annual salary. Wonder why the BOE didn't do that when they listed it? Because it isn't a RAISE. Shocking but they actually showed it correctly.

And to indulge you ever so slightly, even using your logic, then they haven't had a "raise" under your criteria in two years (FY12-FY13)....

Nice try though.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24519 May 1, 2013
While it is not possible to answer all the e-mails and letters from readers, many are thought-provoking, whether those thoughts are positive or negative.
An e-mail from one young man simply asked for the sources of some facts about gun control that were mentioned in a recent column. It is good to check out the facts -- especially if you check out the facts on both sides of an issue.

By contrast, another man simply denounced me because of what was said in that column. He did not ask for my sources but simply made contrary assertions, as if his assertions must be correct and therefore mine must be wrong.

He identified himself as a physician, and the claims that he made about guns were claims that had been made years ago in a medical journal -- and thoroughly discredited since then. He might have learned that, if we had engaged in a back and forth discussion, but it was clear from his letter that his goal was not debate but denunciation. That is often the case these days.

It is always amazing how many serious issues are not discussed seriously, but instead simply generate assertions and counter-assertions. On television talk shows, people on opposite sides often just try to shout each other down.

There is a remarkable range of ways of seeming to argue without actually producing any coherent argument.

Decades of dumbed-down education no doubt have something to do with this, but there is more to it than that. Education is not merely neglected in many of our schools today, but is replaced to a great extent by ideological indoctrination. Moreover, it is largely indoctrination based on the same set of underlying and unexamined assumptions among teachers and institutions.

If our educational institutions -- from the schools to the universities -- were as interested in a diversity of ideas as they are obsessed with racial diversity, students would at least gain experience in seeing the assumptions behind different visions and the role of logic and evidence in debating those differences.

Instead, a student can go all the way from elementary school to a Ph.D. without encountering any fundamentally different vision of the world from that of the prevailing political correctness.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24520 May 1, 2013
Moreover, the moral perspective that goes with this prevailing ideological view is all too often that of people who see themselves as being on the side of the angels against the forces of evil -- whether the particular issue at hand is gun control, environmentalism, race or whatever. A moral monopoly is the antithesis of a marketplace of ideas. One sign of this sense of moral monopoly among the left intelligentsia is that the institutions most under their control -- the schools, colleges and universities -- have far less freedom of speech than the rest of American society.

While advocacy of homosexuality, for example, is common on college campuses, and listening to this advocacy is often obligatory during freshman orientation, criticism of homosexuality is called "hate speech" that is subject to punishment.

While spokesmen for various racial or ethnic groups are free to vehemently denounce whites as a group for their past or present sins, real or otherwise, any white student who similarly denounces the sins or shortcomings of non-white groups can be virtually guaranteed to be punished, if not expelled.

Even students who do not advocate anything can have to pay a price if they do not go along with classroom brainwashing. The student at Florida Atlantic University who recently declined to stomp on a paper with the word "Jesus" on it, as ordered by the professor, was scheduled for punishment by the university until the story became public and provoked an outcry from outside academia.

This professor's action might be dismissed as an isolated extreme, but the university establishment's initial solid backing for him, and its coming down hard on the student, shows that the moral dry rot goes far deeper than one brainwashing professor.

The failure of our educational system goes beyond what they fail to teach. It includes what they do teach, or rather indoctrinate, and the graduates they send out into the world, incapable of seriously weighing alternatives for themselves or for American society.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24521 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
Love the slight of hand.......a raise is commonly known as when you get a certain rate per hour or percentage above what you made last year and it compounds into future years. You added in the 1% "bonus" to the annual salary. Wonder why the BOE didn't do that when they listed it? Because it isn't a RAISE. Shocking but they actually showed it correctly.
And to indulge you ever so slightly, even using your logic, then they haven't had a "raise" under your criteria in two years (FY12-FY13)....
Nice try though.
If you receive more money than your did before then you had a raise in pay.

raise (rz)
v. raised, rais·ing, rais·es
5. To increase in size, quantity, or worth

Was your total compensation increased in size, quantity, or worth?

Yes to all three, consequently a raise.
Buckeye Taxpayers

Piqua, OH

#24522 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Just the first three teachers on the list, but it carries on throughout the entire roster
Teacher..........FY 2010 pay,,,,,,,,,,FY 2011 pay..........FY 2012 pay
.
#1 on list..........54,091.......... 56,078..........56,638
.
#2 on list..........45,105.......... 46,833..........47,301
.
#3 on list..........60,831.......... 60,831..........61,439
The list goes on and on like this, each year they have been getting more money, some more than others, but in the past five years, since 2008, compensation cost have risen between 5-17%.
Teaching is a well paid profession and sometimes wages get a little ahead of the market.
Teaching is a well paid profession and NOW wages and costly compensation/benfits packages have beaten down taxpayers wo cannot carry the heavy load of the teacher unions demands for more.

Teaching is a well paid profession and SEA school employees are
well paid by school district taxpayers. The union campaign rally "support our teachers" should be a call to support our taxpayers "with thanks and appreciation."

Springboro Board of Education members are not the employers of the school union employees. Taxpayers employ our school district leaders and our school union employees. Springboro Board of Education members are "Representatives" of Springboro Taxpayers
and our children first budgeting BOE members are doing their jobs, as the taxpayers directed, by saying NO to five requests from the SEA for more money. Taxpaying homeowners cannot afford Additional taxes! Taxpayers have sent a clear message to our Springboro Education Association officials that we do not want to pay more for their educational services offered to our school children.

Teaching is a well paid profession in Springboro! Why are Springboro school union members not grateful to have such a great job?
raises

Springboro, OH

#24523 May 1, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
If you receive more money than your did before then you had a raise in pay.
raise (rz)
v. raised, rais·ing, rais·es
5. To increase in size, quantity, or worth
Was your total compensation increased in size, quantity, or worth?
Yes to all three, consequently a raise.
So then again, using your logic and argument and so eloquent use of a dictionary to define "raise" and not "pay raise" would you not agree that a large majority of teachers have not had a pay raise in two years,versus the one you keep claiming?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24524 May 1, 2013
raises wrote:
<quoted text>
So then again, using your logic and argument and so eloquent use of a dictionary to define "raise" and not "pay raise" would you not agree that a large majority of teachers have not had a pay raise in two years,versus the one you keep claiming?
Raise is a raise is a raise.

If your pay is more than it was before you got a raise.

The market of supply and demand will ultimately decide who gets what.

In our instance the princes and princesses of the ball are the special education teachers, they make more than everyone regardless of years of seniority.

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