kinniconick creek
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Seeking Information

Grayson, KY

#1 Jan 29, 2013
Does anyone know any "experts" on the creek? Perhaps someone who has traveled the full 99 miles of it?
Maybe

Lexington, KY

#2 Jan 29, 2013
Depends on what you call an "Expert". What are you wanting to know?
seeking information

Grayson, KY

#3 Jan 30, 2013
I'm interested in possibly canoeing/wading/walking the full 99 miles of the creek this summer. So I was wanting to learn as much as I could about it. I suppose I would consider an expert someone who has lived around the creek for many of years, someone who has explored a large majority of the creek through fishing, hiking, canoeing. Many people tend to ignore it's beauty and it's right in our backyard, it's a great source of food, plants and leisure. I like a good adventure and the thought of this journey has sat in my back pocket for a couple of years now and I think it's about time to make it happen. Any information on any topic regarding the creek would be much appreciated.
Landowner

Morehead, KY

#4 Jan 30, 2013
seeking information wrote:
I'm interested in possibly canoeing/wading/walking the full 99 miles of the creek this summer. So I was wanting to learn as much as I could about it. I suppose I would consider an expert someone who has lived around the creek for many of years, someone who has explored a large majority of the creek through fishing, hiking, canoeing. Many people tend to ignore it's beauty and it's right in our backyard, it's a great source of food, plants and leisure. I like a good adventure and the thought of this journey has sat in my back pocket for a couple of years now and I think it's about time to make it happen. Any information on any topic regarding the creek would be much appreciated.
You will do mostly walking/wading in the summer. If you have a canoe with you be prepared to drag it for about 95 of the 99 miles. Also the water is the only public thing about the creek. The landowners on each side of the creek (often the same person) own the creek bottom so if you touch the bottom of the creek you are trespassing. Some will take a dim view of what you are doing.
Maybe

Lexington, KY

#5 Jan 30, 2013
Sorry to say, but, Landowner is correct. Some of these same people want to hunt on other people but do not want anybody hunting on them. I have neighbors that have asked to hunt on my property and when I asked about hunting on them said "NO". A bit off topic, but, just to let you know what you are dealing with.

25 years ago you could wade from Petersville to the mouth of Indian and then use your canoe on to Garrison. There are places you have to drag the boat. Camp on any gravel bar you were at for the night. I am afraid those days are gone. Sorry.
Seeking Information

Grayson, KY

#6 Jan 30, 2013
Wow! I was aware that there would be a lot of dragging the boat but 95 of the 99 miles? Perhaps the trip would be more exhausting then its worth. Do you guys think creek conditions would be any better after a couple days rain? Ask for dealing with land owners I like to think I know the majority of people whom reside in LC and can make that "You know so and so" connection with them... that's if they don't shoot first and talk later.
up the creek

Morehead, KY

#7 Jan 30, 2013
Landowner wrote:
<quoted text>
You will do mostly walking/wading in the summer. If you have a canoe with you be prepared to drag it for about 95 of the 99 miles. Also the water is the only public thing about the creek. The landowners on each side of the creek (often the same person) own the creek bottom so if you touch the bottom of the creek you are trespassing. Some will take a dim view of what you are doing.
The state has an easement on each side of the creek.
up the creek

Morehead, KY

#8 Jan 30, 2013
I think the easement is 10 feet on each side. That's state owned land.
Seeking Information

Grayson, KY

#9 Jan 30, 2013
That's what I had originally thought. I figured if the riverbank is State property within so many feet of the river that the same would apply for the creeks.
Landowner

United States

#10 Jan 30, 2013
up the creek wrote:
<quoted text>The state has an easement on each side of the creek.
Wrong Wrong Wrong!
fisherman

Morehead, KY

#11 Jan 30, 2013
I have lived along or next to kinney all my life,& have fished many eddies in the creek. I have found that if you ask permission,that 99 percent of the land owners will let you put a boat in to fish. The main thing is to show respect by making sure you leave no trash behind or do any damage to the entrance, by spinning tires,building fires or crossing while it is muddy. remember it is a privlage! IT may be a good idea take a day stop and talk to the land owners were you think you might need to camp for the night & ask permission. Have Fun be safe!
wrong

Greenup, KY

#12 Jan 30, 2013
Maybe wrote:
Sorry to say, but, Landowner is correct. Some of these same people want to hunt on other people but do not want anybody hunting on them. I have neighbors that have asked to hunt on my property and when I asked about hunting on them said "NO". A bit off topic, but, just to let you know what you are dealing with.
25 years ago you could wade from Petersville to the mouth of Indian and then use your canoe on to Garrison. There are places you have to drag the boat. Camp on any gravel bar you were at for the night. I am afraid those days are gone. Sorry.
the creek is state owned anybody can go up and down the creek nobody can say a word.
Maybe

Morehead, KY

#13 Jan 30, 2013
Seeking, give the county attorney a call for clarification. If anyone tries to get a warrant for trespass he is the one that has to prosecute it.
mrs foot

Maysville, KY

#14 Jan 31, 2013
we travel it all the time but mostly at nights of course,
Law Dog

Flatwoods, KY

#15 Feb 1, 2013
The public has the right to use navigable waters for recreational purposes such as boating, fishing or swimming. The test for navigability in Kentucky is “navigable in fact.” The courts look to see whether, in the legal or technical sense, water has a useful capacity and can be used as a public highway for transportation. The law in Kentucky does not consider streams to be navigable if they are only sufficient to allow pleasure boaters, hunters or fisherman to “float their skiffs or canoes. Therefore, when determining navigability, the case law appears to err on the side of larger streams and not smaller streams or creeks that would not allow true commerce or transportation through the water.
Kentucky, through its case law, has adopted a state test of navigability that makes streams navigable if they are navigable in the legal or technical sense and not the ordinary sense. The criteria for navigability of a river is whether it is “generally and commonly useful for some purpose of trade or commerce of a substantial and permanent character, for, if this were not so, then there is scarcely a creek or stream in the entire country which is not navigable water of the United States.” This essentially means that ”If the stream, in its natural condition, is capable of being used for floating vessels, rafts, logs, etc., and has in the past been used for that purpose, the public has an easement in it.” However, the “use of a stream by a boat a few times in many years for a picnic or excursion cannot be deemed a navigation.” The courts in Kentucky also expressly reject the recreational boating test, so the fact that a skiff, small raft or canoe are able to float a stream is not sufficient to constitute navigability. The courts have even gone so far as to state that streams that have pools of water formed in which a ferry could pass does not constitute a navigable stream throughout its length, but only in that particular area.
A non-navigable stream is the private property of the owners of the adjoining lands and cannot be taken for public use without just compensation. The riparian owners of land on a stream that is navigable are owners to the center of the stream or river up to the high-water mark. However, the public can use navigable streams for recreational purposes, including the stream bottoms, despite the fact that streambeds of navigable rivers are owned by the adjacent riparian landowner. Ownership rights of riparian landowners is subordinate to the public's right to use navigable waters. The public right of navigation also includes the right of temporary anchorage.
There are no specific cases that address the existence of a right to portage in Kentucky. However, the courts do provide for the right of “incidental use of the riverbed.” One could argue that the right to portage is akin to the right of incidental use of the riverbed, but the facts of the cases in Kentucky that address incidental use suggest otherwise. The courts addressing incidental use focus on the use of the riverbeds to help with the floating of logs down a stream that may get caught up or run up onto a riverbed. These courts have held that a person can go up on the banks of a stream when it is necessary in driving logs down a stream. Therefore, while incidental use is allowed, the courts only apply it to the facts of driving a log down a stream. Under these facts, one would conclude that Kentucky law does not provide for the right to portage.
So has Kinney ever been used to move logs or other commerce? Could it be done today? No. By law you have no rights to be in a creek in a boat or on foot so just forget about a 4-wheeler. That said I have traveled Kinney by canoe several times and many others have done so over the years. I have yet to meet someone on the creek that didn't return the respect given to them. Just remember to tread lightly and show respect to the land and land-owners and you should not have any problems.
Law Dog

Flatwoods, KY

#16 Feb 1, 2013
wrong wrote:
<quoted text>the creek is state owned anybody can go up and down the creek nobody can say a word.
Wrong is wrong.
Law Dog

Ashland, KY

#17 Feb 4, 2013
Seeking Information wrote:
That's what I had originally thought. I figured if the riverbank is State property within so many feet of the river that the same would apply for the creeks.
Landowners actually own to the low water mark in the river. Understand that is the un-dammed, un-controlled low water mark. That is a hundred feet or more from the current water line. The river being a "navigable stream" allows the public to use the water for commerce and pleasure. Portage and temporary anchorage are also covered. BUT you do not have the right to just fish or camp any where you choose along the bank. If the land owner wishes they can tell you to leave at any time and they are covered by the law. They may wish to have you charged with trespassing. If flood waters have pushed the water level up past the normal high water mark. You can float over the landowners property but temporary anchorage and portage no longer applies. I promise that in the courts landowner rights will always win. Remember always be respectful and clean up after yourself and most landowners will say nothing. Start leaving your garbage behind and harassing the person paying the mortgage and taxes and they will make you leave, it is really that simple.
Law Dog

Ashland, KY

#18 Feb 4, 2013
You can always tell who owns land and who doesn't in these discussions.
bubba

Broken Arrow, OK

#19 Feb 4, 2013
I couldn't blame any landowner for not being friendly toward strangers wanting to use their land. I have fished on most streams in the area and there is ALWAYS an area or two where some scumbags have left trash, beer cans, dirty diapers, etc. laying all over the bank. If it makes me PO'd I can only imagine what the owner feels. I always end up carrying out more than I carried in, but I'm the exception. I always wonder what goes on inside the heads of the "pea brained" morons that go to an area for recreation because its beautiful and relaxing and then trashes it.
fisherman

Morehead, KY

#20 Feb 4, 2013
I agree with Bubba 100%. I will do the same thing pick up trash that some other ediot left behind. I guess they don't appreciate anything.

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