Here 24 7

Utica, NY

#224 Oct 4, 2013
cormac wrote:
Rev,
I don't think your a "...cook or lunatic" at all and I mostly share your opinion. In this situation I have to root for the side that is at least trying to stop obamacare because it will be a disaster for individuals and the economy in general.
As for you being the lone man who is smarter than everyone else well I think that is just hubris on your part.
S/He spelled "kook" wrong. I didn't read that thinking he was being arrogant or self-promoting, just attempting to drive home a good point. Like being trapped or forced to be subject to the real kooks around him and despite all his drum banging and horn blowing is ignored and has to suffer and pay (die) for the real clueless loonies'(those blocking/ignoring the way out) sins. My 2 cents anyhow.
Hey

Miami, FL

#225 Oct 4, 2013
Ben Gleck wrote:
<quoted text>Did I say that Obama is guilty of war crimes? No I didn't so you just misquoted me. That makes you a lying sack of crap.
I served in the Marines, in Viet Nam. I was trained as an infantryman and served in that capacity, for one tour. Then I served as an M.P. I love my country very much. What I don't love is what the extremists in the right wing party is doing. I also don't appreciate idealogues like you. And there's no doubt in my mind that you are one. Your stupid parlor games and tedious pseudo intellectual nonsense doesn't impress me at all.
You never answered me. Where is this "battlefield that our troops are supposed to conduct their operations according to Roberts Rules of order on? BTW we are at war . There's a lot of secrecy involve in that. If you think our president has been too brutal, wait till you see what our enemies have in mind. What are you an alqaida supporter?
You sound just like Larry Joseph lol!
Here 24 7

Utica, NY

#226 Oct 4, 2013
Here 24 7 wrote:
<quoted text>
S/He spelled "kook" wrong. I didn't read that thinking he was being arrogant or self-promoting, just attempting to drive home a good point. Like being trapped or forced to be subject to the real kooks around him and despite all his drum banging and horn blowing is ignored and has to suffer and pay (die) for the real clueless loonies'(those blocking/ignoring the way out) sins. My 2 cents anyhow.
It's hyperbole! That's the word I was trying to think of haha.
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#227 Oct 4, 2013
Ben Gleck wrote:
<quoted text>Did I say that Obama is guilty of war crimes? No I didn't so you just misquoted me.
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. Once again I'll ask you to point out where you were misquoted. It's simply impossible, given that I directly cut and paste your own words.
I served in the Marines, in Viet Nam. I was trained as an infantryman and served in that capacity, for one tour. Then I served as an M.P.
Then you were most assuredly educated in the details of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the
Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field:

Each High Contracting Party shall be under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed, such grave breaches, and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts. It may also, if it prefers, and in accordance with the provisions of its own legislation, hand such persons over for trial to another High Contracting Party concerned, provided such High Contracting Party has made out a ' prima facie ' case.

Given that you are familiar with the Article in question,

And given that you've sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution,

And given that international treaties ratified by the United States become the law of the land, with the full faith and force of the Constitution itself,

And given that you've admitted that mere suspicion is not an allowable justification for battlefield executions,

And given that you're aware the President of the United States has ordered such executions, in violation of the Convention,

You are both legally and morally obligated to turn him in for trial under the Convention.

Why you refuse to do your duty as a Marine and an American is beyond me, but there it is.
What I don't love is what the extremists in the right wing party is doing.
But apparently you're A-OK with the brutal murder of innocent civilians in neutral countries, in violation of international law.

That's an interesting set of priorities you have there.
I also don't appreciate idealogues like you.
Then I'd better be particularly careful, since there's such a fine line between "idealogue" and "terrorist". And we already know you're cool with dropping a Hellfire on those kinds of folks.
If you think our president has been too brutal, wait till you see what our enemies have in mind. What are you an alqaida supporter?
So it's "support the President, or you support Al-Quaida", is it? Wait, isn't that exactly the kind of thing *you* would expect a Rush Limbaugh listener to say?

Please, tell me more about dangerous idealogues.

Level 7

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#228 Oct 4, 2013
cormac wrote:
Truth Dig,
Of course you are the same person as Gleck/et al it is obvious to any one who has any reading comprehension.
I have never called myself an intellectual just a guy who is curious and pragmatic who unlike you reads extensively both sides of an argument.
As far as sock puppetry is concerned I used to post under the moniker "teo" but decided to change my screen name last month to "cormac". Unlike you I have no reason to try to create a Greek chorus made up of my own voice.
I am confident enough in my opinions that I can defend them by myself.
But you? Not so much.
You're the same moron no matter what the name. Again, I am not Gleck. Only a f.cking whack job would create another screen name to agree with him on some anonymous forum. Who gives a f.ck? If I was worried about people agreeing with me here, I would be spewing the imbecilic tea party lunacy.

Good grief. I hope you're not a detective.
Wrong

Miami, FL

#229 Oct 4, 2013
Truth Dig wrote:
<quoted text>
You're the same moron no matter what the name. Again, I am not Gleck. Only a f.cking whack job would create another screen name to agree with him on some anonymous forum. Who gives a f.ck? If I was worried about people agreeing with me here, I would be spewing the imbecilic tea party lunacy.
Good grief. I hope you're not a detective.
You're "Gleck" beyond any doubt. Quit crying and avoiding your ass smacking.
Ben Gleck

Utica, NY

#230 Oct 4, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. Once again I'll ask you to point out where you were misquoted. It's simply impossible, given that I directly cut and paste your own words.
<quoted text>
Then you were most assuredly educated in the details of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the
Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field:
Each High Contracting Party shall be under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed, such grave breaches, and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts. It may also, if it prefers, and in accordance with the provisions of its own legislation, hand such persons over for trial to another High Contracting Party concerned, provided such High Contracting Party has made out a ' prima facie ' case.
Given that you are familiar with the Article in question,
And given that you've sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution,
And given that international treaties ratified by the United States become the law of the land, with the full faith and force of the Constitution itself,
And given that you've admitted that mere suspicion is not an allowable justification for battlefield executions,
And given that you're aware the President of the United States has ordered such executions, in violation of the Convention,
You are both legally and morally obligated to turn him in for trial under the Convention.
Why you refuse to do your duty as a Marine and an American is beyond me, but there it is.
<quoted text>
But apparently you're A-OK with the brutal murder of innocent civilians in neutral countries, in violation of international law.
That's an interesting set of priorities you have there.
<quoted text>
Then I'd better be particularly careful, since there's such a fine line between "idealogue" and "terrorist". And we already know you're cool with dropping a Hellfire on those kinds of folks.
<quoted text>
So it's "support the President, or you support Al-Quaida", is it? Wait, isn't that exactly the kind of thing *you* would expect a Rush Limbaugh listener to say?
Please, tell me more about dangerous idealogues.
Once again, numb nutz. You copy and paste my post and then twist the meaning of what I say all out of recognition. Do you think that you invented this cheap, phony trick? You're really a crashing bore. Did you even read the article you just copied and pasted from the UCMJ? No, I didn't think so. It refers to the treatment of the sick and wounded. My God, what a phony.
Just for the record did you not say that you would support the invading of countries as a way of dealing with our present enemies? So would that mean we should invade all fifty two of them? So, you think we should just make war on the entire world in order to appease your myopic sense of legality. Yeah, you're a right winger all right. I can tell by your stupidity and total lack of character.

Level 7

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#231 Oct 4, 2013
Ben Gleck wrote:
<quoted text>For a brief moment I thought we might have a glmimer of intelligence from the right. But no such luck with DA Law. He says we should only use drone strikes "on the battle field". 1840 is calling Mr. Law. They want their muskets back. I haven't noticed alqaida lining up in formation with bayonets to the ready. What an asz clown this guy is. And he spends a whole page pointing out the horrors of the A.C.A. And all he can come up with is staff shortages. Virtually every hospital administrator in the country endorsed the ACA. Maybe they need to keep their ears stuck to the Rush Limbaugh show to get the real scoop. And there's no doubt thtat this guy is a ditto head. Rush Limbaugh is the intellectual (sic) leader of the Republican party. Every one of these right wing stooges parrots his every word, and yet no one admits to listening to him. Interesting.
Hey, did you know you and I are the same person? According to the genius "Teo" anyway. In fairness, that f.cking idiot thought Ronald Reagan and John Wayne were the same person.

Their biggest fear is the ACA will actually work. We will soon find out. But no matter what the merits, we do have a Constitution. If you want to repeal a law, our Constitution is pretty clear on how to do that. Blackmail isn't part of the process the last I checked.

And that's the real danger here. We are becoming a banana republic, where simple, well established historical rules of governance no longer apply. Imagine if Harry Reid said he was going to hold up financing for much of the government (shutting it down) unless Republicans agreed to provide nationwide taxpayer funding for all abortions? Or agreed to double the top marginal tax rate to 80%? Or remove the tax exempt status for religious institution. The Republicans have chosen Obamacare to hold hostage. It can easily be any number of duly enacted laws which could be subject to blackmail. We run the risk of becoming a country where we are constantly in a state of chaos. In fact, we are pretty much there now. We can't even get these maniacs to finance the government or agree to NOT destroy the world economy without demanding some tribute, in this case, repeal of a duly enacted law which they cannot repeal through our democratic, Constitutional process. This isn't about Obamacare. The future of our democracy is at state.

Luckily, the imbeciles appear to be backing off on defaulting on the national debt. I guess that was a bridge too far even for those f.cking maniacs.
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#232 Oct 4, 2013
Truth Dig wrote:
<quoted text> Again, I am not Gleck.
That's good to hear. Do you agree with his support of the President's illegal extra-judicial killings?
Ben Gleck

Utica, NY

#233 Oct 4, 2013
Truth Dig wrote:
<quoted text>
You're the same moron no matter what the name. Again, I am not Gleck. Only a f.cking whack job would create another screen name to agree with him on some anonymous forum. Who gives a f.ck? If I was worried about people agreeing with me here, I would be spewing the imbecilic tea party lunacy.
Good grief. I hope you're not a detective.
T.D. I just read a brilliant analysis of the present Republican party . It's just a two page article By Mark Warren in this month's Esquire Magazine. Google it up, I think you will enjoy it. keep the faith, B.G.
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#234 Oct 4, 2013
Ben Gleck wrote:
<quoted text>Once again, numb nutz. You copy and paste my post and then twist the meaning of what I say all out of recognition.
So I exactly copy what you say, but then perform some kind of magic to make it say something different.

I. Is. A. Wizard! Behold my powah!
Do you think that you invented this cheap, phony trick?
Well, you have to admit being able to exactly copy your words and then magically make it appear to be something different, as you claim, is a pretty impressive feat of legerdemain.
Did you even read the article you just copied and pasted from the UCMJ?
No, I directly cut and pasted from the Geneva Convention. As I rather obviously pointed out by including the text of the article in question.

But you know, I've got that "magical powah" to somehow quote someone and "twist" their words when I cut and paste.

Tremble before my powah!
Just for the record did you not say that you would support the invading of countries as a way of dealing with our present enemies?
I would proudly support every legal measure for the defense of this nation.

Unlike yourself, I don't believe it's necessary to throw out two centuries of adherence to the principal of due process to make this country safe.

BTW, did you have a chance to peruse those videos at the website I linked to? Powerful stuff.
Yeah, you're a right winger all right. I can tell by your stupidity and total lack of character.
Hey, you're the one saying "support the President or you support Al-Quaida", not me. I'm the guy trying to get you onboard with such radical right wing concepts as "due process", "trial by jury", and "not blowing up some poor peasant's tea party because you *think* he might be a terrorist".

I'm curious, would you be more concerned about the President's victims if they were a few shades lighter?
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#235 Oct 4, 2013
Truth Dig wrote:
<quoted text>
We are becoming a banana republic, where simple, well established historical rules of governance no longer apply.
I couldn't agree more! Basic principles like due process, the right to privacy, and the right to a trial by jury have been tossed right out the window.
Imagine if Harry Reid said he was going to hold up financing for much of the government (shutting it down) unless Republicans agreed to provide nationwide taxpayer funding for all abortions?
Frankly, that would be the best thing he ever did.
The future of our democracy is at state.
I see we're on the same page. So what should we start with first? Cutting the funding for the administration's illegal global surveillance program, or the illegal drone strikes?
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#236 Oct 4, 2013
Ben Gleck wrote:
<quoted text>T.D. I just read a brilliant analysis of the present Republican party . It's just a two page article By Mark Warren in this month's Esquire Magazine.
So you're browsing Esquire for fashion tips while people are dying?

Nice. That's quite a set of priorities you have there.

Level 7

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#237 Oct 4, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
That's good to hear. Do you agree with his support of the President's illegal extra-judicial killings?
Gleck and I are apart on that one. Awlaki and his son's killing especially.

Level 7

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#238 Oct 4, 2013
Ben Gleck wrote:
<quoted text>T.D. I just read a brilliant analysis of the present Republican party . It's just a two page article By Mark Warren in this month's Esquire Magazine. Google it up, I think you will enjoy it. keep the faith, B.G.
Thanks Gleck. Maybe bedtime reading....
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#239 Oct 4, 2013
Truth Dig wrote:
<quoted text>
Gleck and I are apart on that one. Awlaki and his son's killing especially.
Nassar Al-Alwaki has an absolutely heartbreaking account of the incident in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the...

"I LEARNED that my 16-year-old grandson, Abdulrahman a United States citizen had been killed by an American drone strike from news reports the morning after he died.

The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen."

It really puts that whole "support the President or you support Al-Quaida" thing in perspective.

Level 7

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#240 Oct 4, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
I couldn't agree more! Basic principles like due process, the right to privacy, and the right to a trial by jury have been tossed right out the window.
<quoted text>
Frankly, that would be the best thing he ever did.
<quoted text>
I see we're on the same page. So what should we start with first? Cutting the funding for the administration's illegal global surveillance program, or the illegal drone strikes?
That would make for some interesting bedfellows. Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders?

I'm a big fan of Glenn Greenwald. I think Eric Snowden did this country a great service. The fact that he's holed up in some Moscow apartment because of his whistleblowing is a stain on our nation.

I'd also be all for cutting funding for both the NSA's domestic spying program and drone operations. I understand the latter more than the former- I guess the theory being we are keeping men and women out of combat by dropping bombs from flying robots instead. However, we seem to be indiscriminately killing innocents, creating more enemies than we are killing. And our country should NEVER conduct such an operation against an American citizen without the most arduous form due process.

However, to my point, we should not pursue those policies, or any policy, by threatening to shut down the government or default on the national debt. Our country is nearly ungovernable because of those tactics.

Level 7

Since: May 11

Location hidden

#241 Oct 4, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
Nassar Al-Alwaki has an absolutely heartbreaking account of the incident in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the...
"I LEARNED that my 16-year-old grandson, Abdulrahman a United States citizen had been killed by an American drone strike from news reports the morning after he died.
The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen."
It really puts that whole "support the President or you support Al-Quaida" thing in perspective.
I read that account back when it was first published. It was heart wrenching. He was a kid looking for his father. I can't imagine the pain his grandfather must have felt. There are some quarters who look at people with Muslim names, especially when they are living in other far-off countries, as subhuman, as if they don't feel pain, experience heartbreak, mourn loss.

Imagine if you came home one day and found your house vaporized, your entire family incinerated by some flying robot from, say, Iran. How would anyone here react to that? Yet we do sh.t like that, and can't fathom why there are growing numbers of people wanting to return the favor. Instead, we hear from the jingoistic chorus "they hate us for our freedoms." Like we've been dropping freedom bombs on the world the last 12 years.
Ben Gleck

Utica, NY

#242 Oct 4, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
So you're browsing Esquire for fashion tips while people are dying?
Nice. That's quite a set of priorities you have there.
When were people not dying? Please tell us again how you would handle al Qaida terrorists. You did say that you would favor invading countries. As I stated from the beginning these drone strikes are a very dangerous, slippery slope. And innocent civilians have been killed. All my friends are opposed to the drone strikes. Except the one's who have actually experienced war first hand. It seems to me that presidents are often given no good choices, only bad choices, horrible choices, and unspeakably horrible choices. I think the drones are the lesser of evil. So untill someone can give me a more viable solution, yes I support it. BTW why don't you read the article. Take a break from the right wing echo chamber you're obviously living in. You just might learn somrething.
Da Law

Ilion, NY

#243 Oct 4, 2013
Truth Dig wrote:
<quoted text>
That would make for some interesting bedfellows. Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders?
That's really not as odd as it sounds.
I'm a big fan of Glenn Greenwald. I think Eric Snowden did this country a great service. The fact that he's holed up in some Moscow apartment because of his whistleblowing is a stain on our nation.
I couldn't agree more. Part of the problem with this issue, and a lot of others, is that the leadership of both parties relies on the lever of tribalism to incrementally push the limits of what the government is allowed to do. Team Red is in power, so the bar for what's allowable surveillance gets pushed up a little bit more. And then Team Blue comes into power after excoriating that policy...and not only doesn't repeal it, but pushes it just a little bit further.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Ad infinitum. Next thing you know every single phone call and email is being monitored, and the laws controlling the practice are themselves secret.
I'd also be all for cutting funding for both the NSA's domestic spying program and drone operations. I understand the latter more than the former- I guess the theory being we are keeping men and women out of combat by dropping bombs from flying robots instead. However, we seem to be indiscriminately killing innocents, creating more enemies than we are killing. And our country should NEVER conduct such an operation against an American citizen without the most arduous form due process.
However, to my point, we should not pursue those policies, or any policy, by threatening to shut down the government or default on the national debt. Our country is nearly ungovernable because of those tactics.
In all seriousness, thanks for writing this.

Something that gets frequently lost in political discussions is that everyone involved genuinely wants what's best. And while it's fun to be snarky, and I'm obviously as guilty of that as anyone else, a lot more can be accomplished by stepping back and assuming good will on the part of those that disagree with you.

One of the things I dislike about Obamacare is that it's such a missed opportunity. Seriously, who doesn't support quality health care for everyone? But I think the secret to solving that problem is making it cheap. We still haven't done anything about equalizing healthcare supply with demand.

I could have gotten behind a "medical Manhattan project" that emphasized a massive increase in the number of doctors, an open source formulary for medicine, and research into miniaturizing diagnostic and treatment tools. Heck, we've had experimental computerized expert systems that can do a complete diagnostic and treatment program for years. Just imagine what could be possible if systems like that could fit on a desktop.

But, sadly, that was not to be, and we've ended up with a system that no one really likes all that much, as opposed to the old system that no one really liked all that much.

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