AHL & Utica Flames is a Rumor!! Wanna...

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#81 Mar 7, 2013
fwiw wrote:
God you are annoying.
I said in post #75 it was a typo, perhaps you might want to do a little reading yourself.
Anyway, I am not a naysayer. I hope they come. I hope they succeed. I will go to a game or two. I am skeptical of their ability to make it if they are relying on attendance. I would not invest if their model relies on that. It has been a proven failure. I am not sure how many times I have to explain that to you. But whatever you don't care.
You want to believe that the utica Devils were the sh#t, that they made utica awesome, that losing them ruined quality of life. You are a fool. Fine. Have it. 40 year old clown living in the past with no clue what went wrong around here or what needs to be done to bring positive change.
Bring on the hockey team. Lets watch that the ball start rollin. Look out silicon valley. Here comes utica.
Then you can post all your "I told you so's", fool.
Or perhaps you posted it at the same time I was posting my comments so I didn't see your amendment?

And I'm not a clown and I have a decent idea of what needs to be done. The place needs a better quality of life and fortunately that starts this fall with the new flames! See you there.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#82 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Frome your own post:
"In some cases when attendance was unavailable for a small number of games, the attendance was computed using available data and annotated as approximate."
"Approximate and using available data". A disclaimer like that from statisticians means that assumptions were made in coming to the result shown.
Does anyone who was actually there remember there being over 2200 a game on average over any entire season? I was there and I doubt those stats. I seem to remember in the runup to the team moving that it was mentioned in the news that a move was inevitable due to low attendance and that if fans wanted to sav ethe team they would have to step up. Didn't work.
Now you want to discredit a website. Lol

And btw the way, I was there. My family had four season tickets.
JUST THE FACTS UTICA 34

Sherburne, NY

#83 Mar 8, 2013
I have read your past posts about population size and what not but I have a number for ya. Released earlier in the week, in the Oneida County Executive's state of the county address some alarming numbers came out. 110,000 people or 48% of Oneida County Residence are on some sort of public assistance. I hate to say they will not be attending AHL games next season or ever for that matter. http://www.wktv.com/news/local/Picente-delive...

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#84 Mar 8, 2013
JUST THE FACTS UTICA 34 wrote:
I have read your past posts about population size and what not but I have a number for ya. Released earlier in the week, in the Oneida County Executive's state of the county address some alarming numbers came out. 110,000 people or 48% of Oneida County Residence are on some sort of public assistance. I hate to say they will not be attending AHL games next season or ever for that matter. http://www.wktv.com/news/local/Picente-delive...
Hmm...I wonder how many of those people still go to the casino? Movies?

And any how. Out of a market of nearly 300000 people the flames only need to capture 1% of that to average 3000 fans.
Truth

Utica, NY

#85 Mar 8, 2013
UticaHockey wrote:
I used to attend a lot of Utica Devils games and my memory is consistent with the stats shown on the hockeybd website. On weeknights anywhere from 1700 to 2200 and between 2600 and 3300 for Friday and Saturdays. When you average it all out over a season I would say that what they are showing sounds about right.
I could be wrong in the way I remember it. Seemes to me that for the most part there were a lot of empty seats especially on the ends in the upper tier. Again, I may be mistaken.

Regardless though, do those numbers sound like they would support a team without benefit of taxpayer subsidy? I'm asking. I don't know what the business model for an AHL franchise in Utica looks like. It's the taxpayer money I have the problem with. At a time when we are seeing teacher layoffs, we have antiquated infrastructure and they are talking about whether the city has enough money to buy salt for the roads I don't think the prudent move is to give money to a private venture like this that will serve only a very narrow slice of the population. This isn't going to provide any kind of economic boost for anyone except perhaps the people with their hands out.

I'm all for an AHL team and think it would be a great addition to the area but they need to do it on their own. If it's worth it they will.
UticaHockey

Waterville, NY

#86 Mar 8, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
I could be wrong in the way I remember it. Seemes to me that for the most part there were a lot of empty seats especially on the ends in the upper tier. Again, I may be mistaken.
Regardless though, do those numbers sound like they would support a team without benefit of taxpayer subsidy? I'm asking. I don't know what the business model for an AHL franchise in Utica looks like. It's the taxpayer money I have the problem with. At a time when we are seeing teacher layoffs, we have antiquated infrastructure and they are talking about whether the city has enough money to buy salt for the roads I don't think the prudent move is to give money to a private venture like this that will serve only a very narrow slice of the population. This isn't going to provide any kind of economic boost for anyone except perhaps the people with their hands out.
I'm all for an AHL team and think it would be a great addition to the area but they need to do it on their own. If it's worth it they will.
I'm holding off judgement until I read the official announcement about the financing of this deal (if there is indeed a deal) rather than buying into all of the rumors on a site like topix. I don't want to see the taxpayers of Utica and Oneida county subsidizing this either.

Again, I do not know anything about this deal but here are some typical arrangements and if they are included in this I would support them.

- The team getting a portion of the concession and parking revenue. This is very typical for a professional minor league team and would be reasonable as long as the lease agreement gives the Aud enough income to also operate in the black.

- Upgrades to the Aud paid for with state and federal grant money and not directly paid for with local tax dollars. Yes, even if it is state and federal money we are all paying for it anyway but this type of money is routinely used in other locations to upgrade public and private facilities so it is about time that Utica gets it's fair share.

- Naming rights for the Aud......Why not? This is a revenue stream used by countless sporting venues both large and small.
The Cretin

Gouverneur, NY

#87 Mar 8, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you want to discredit a website. Lol
And btw the way, I was there. My family had four season tickets.
And btw, it's..........Cretin!
lot has to happen

New Hartford, NY

#88 Mar 8, 2013
The Cretin wrote:
<quoted text>
And btw, it's..........Cretin!
BTW, you're gay
lot has to happen

New Hartford, NY

#89 Mar 8, 2013
UticaHockey wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm holding off judgement until I read the official announcement about the financing of this deal (if there is indeed a deal) rather than buying into all of the rumors on a site like topix. I don't want to see the taxpayers of Utica and Oneida county subsidizing this either.
Again, I do not know anything about this deal but here are some typical arrangements and if they are included in this I would support them.
- The team getting a portion of the concession and parking revenue. This is very typical for a professional minor league team and would be reasonable as long as the lease agreement gives the Aud enough income to also operate in the black.
- Upgrades to the Aud paid for with state and federal grant money and not directly paid for with local tax dollars. Yes, even if it is state and federal money we are all paying for it anyway but this type of money is routinely used in other locations to upgrade public and private facilities so it is about time that Utica gets it's fair share.
- Naming rights for the Aud......Why not? This is a revenue stream used by countless sporting venues both large and small.
Agree. Lot of time before now and end-of-the-month. Till then it's a rumor, nothing more. Doubt it's even a serious news feed at this point. For now it's just a "Topix" newsfeed, nothing more
Rico Suave

Rome, NY

#90 Mar 8, 2013
UticaHockey wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm holding off judgement until I read the official announcement about the financing of this deal (if there is indeed a deal) rather than buying into all of the rumors on a site like topix. I don't want to see the taxpayers of Utica and Oneida county subsidizing this either.
Again, I do not know anything about this deal but here are some typical arrangements and if they are included in this I would support them.
- The team getting a portion of the concession and parking revenue. This is very typical for a professional minor league team and would be reasonable as long as the lease agreement gives the Aud enough income to also operate in the black.
- Upgrades to the Aud paid for with state and federal grant money and not directly paid for with local tax dollars. Yes, even if it is state and federal money we are all paying for it anyway but this type of money is routinely used in other locations to upgrade public and private facilities so it is about time that Utica gets it's fair share.
- Naming rights for the Aud......Why not? This is a revenue stream used by countless sporting venues both large and small.
That sounds like a deal pretty much everyone can get behind.

It's the potential for a takeover of the Auditorium Authority that has a lot of people concerned.
Public Parasite Paradise

United States

#91 Mar 8, 2013
lot has to happen wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW, you're gay
That's just the angry littleman Dave Neary over in Whiteswhoro. He's mad I trashed his race-bashing coach bashing posts so now, in that infinite "ooootica inbreed wisdom" he automatically thinks anyone posting from United States is me.

Easy to see why he couldn't make "detective" isn't it? They DREAM of a tinbadge and the Just Add Water Authority they get from that crackerjack box. Funnier still when they actually DO hire stupid morons for detectives there and that imbecile STILL couldn't hack it.... but you can tell he'd try!

Hockey in uterus is doing well only because Heenan is pushing so hard. However it won't take long for the "Utica-ness" to drag that down.... utica's sewer water sinks all boats... as they say.
fwiw

Morrisville, NY

#92 Mar 8, 2013
Naming rights would likely be primarily an up front deal with a lease going forward. I am pretty certain the Aud's board has examined this in the past and found limited interest. Limited in that offers we no where near an amount that they would consider. Naming rights in utica do not attract the Citi's, and Nationwides of the world. They could probably become the Clark Arena, but the payday just isn't there. And if they did find a worthwhile arrangement, I would think the Aud would be reluctant to share a very large portion of that with a tenant. But you never know.

State or Fed aid. Again this is something the Aud's board has pursued for years. Unfortunately, Utica is low on the political pecking list. Low as in behind just about everywhere else in NY. And again, I can't envision the Aud sharing any funds with a tenant, particularly if the aid or grant is for remodeling or upgrades to the facility.

Sharing in parking and concessions is likely, as it is part of many of their deals. This is preferable to the arena in that the rent covers their fixed costs, and sharing concessions doesn't eat into any profits. Tenants, in their optimism, are willing to pay a little higher lease if they share in concessions because they expect to draw crowds. But make no mistake, those dollars are tied to attendance. Low attendance means low concession sales. My experience with paid parking in utica is that when you charge, people find an alternative. This is not Manhattan. There are places to park for free in walking distance. I'll pay for the convenience, but a few of my friends will just park on LaFayette or Columbia and walk.

As for the Devils end. I am not sure how anyone could deny that there were an abundance of empty seats. Saying it averaged near sellouts prior to the move is BS. I mean it is a flat out lie. Leading up to the move the community and the press pursued efforts to boost attendance as that was sited publicly as a significant factor in the team's decision to consider relocation. Fans were asked to show up to show their support, and they didn't. Still, local businesses certainly benefited. Fans would start and end at the Columbia, Griffin's Pub, etc. Now there's some "quality of life" improvements for ya!
Truth

Utica, NY

#93 Mar 8, 2013
UticaHockey wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm holding off judgement until I read the official announcement about the financing of this deal (if there is indeed a deal) rather than buying into all of the rumors on a site like topix. I don't want to see the taxpayers of Utica and Oneida county subsidizing this either.
Again, I do not know anything about this deal but here are some typical arrangements and if they are included in this I would support them.
- The team getting a portion of the concession and parking revenue. This is very typical for a professional minor league team and would be reasonable as long as the lease agreement gives the Aud enough income to also operate in the black.
- Upgrades to the Aud paid for with state and federal grant money and not directly paid for with local tax dollars. Yes, even if it is state and federal money we are all paying for it anyway but this type of money is routinely used in other locations to upgrade public and private facilities so it is about time that Utica gets it's fair share.
- Naming rights for the Aud......Why not? This is a revenue stream used by countless sporting venues both large and small.
Tax dollars are tax dollars regardless where they come from. Many of our financial woes in the country, state and city stem from taxpayer funded government programs. Fair share? How about fair share for education, public safety and public works then? Those are the things that government is actually charged with providing and should be fully funded long before anyone kicks in for a privately owned hockey team to come to town.

I know that taxpayer dollars have been used in the past subdize any number of things. I named a number of them. My point is this. It just does not track with me that we would allow our tax dollars(regradless of what level of government they come from) to be used for a hockey team at a time when our largest school district is laying teachers off, our local governments are cutting back on services and our infrastructure is crumbling. A hockey team will do nothing to solve those immediate problems. It will serve as entertainment for a very minute percentage of the population and regardless what anyone says will not draw people or business here.

When all of this talk started I repeated a quote I heard a long time ago that seems to me very apt in this situation:
"Yeah it's nice, would you build a pool in the back yard if your roof was leaking?"

If a hockey team sees an opportunity here and a group of private investors feel they can make a go of it then by all means. Bring it on. I'm happy for those who will enjoy it. That said, I don't want my pocket picked to fund it in any way shape or form as long as we are cutting teachers, public safety and public works. I think a lot of people feel the same and will say so if there is any hint of taxpayer money spent of this.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#94 Mar 8, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Naming rights would likely be primarily an up front deal with a lease going forward. I am pretty certain the Aud's board has examined this in the past and found limited interest. Limited in that offers we no where near an amount that they would consider. Naming rights in utica do not attract the Citi's, and Nationwides of the world. They could probably become the Clark Arena, but the payday just isn't there. And if they did find a worthwhile arrangement, I would think the Aud would be reluctant to share a very large portion of that with a tenant. But you never know.
State or Fed aid. Again this is something the Aud's board has pursued for years. Unfortunately, Utica is low on the political pecking list. Low as in behind just about everywhere else in NY. And again, I can't envision the Aud sharing any funds with a tenant, particularly if the aid or grant is for remodeling or upgrades to the facility.
Sharing in parking and concessions is likely, as it is part of many of their deals. This is preferable to the arena in that the rent covers their fixed costs, and sharing concessions doesn't eat into any profits. Tenants, in their optimism, are willing to pay a little higher lease if they share in concessions because they expect to draw crowds. But make no mistake, those dollars are tied to attendance. Low attendance means low concession sales. My experience with paid parking in utica is that when you charge, people find an alternative. This is not Manhattan. There are places to park for free in walking distance. I'll pay for the convenience, but a few of my friends will just park on LaFayette or Columbia and walk.
As for the Devils end. I am not sure how anyone could deny that there were an abundance of empty seats. Saying it averaged near sellouts prior to the move is BS. I mean it is a flat out lie. Leading up to the move the community and the press pursued efforts to boost attendance as that was sited publicly as a significant factor in the team's decision to consider relocation. Fans were asked to show up to show their support, and they didn't. Still, local businesses certainly benefited. Fans would start and end at the Columbia, Griffin's Pub, etc. Now there's some "quality of life" improvements for ya!
The attendance numbers don't lie. They were what they were.
The Cretin

Gouverneur, NY

#95 Mar 8, 2013
Public Parasite Paradise wrote:
<quoted text>That's just the angry littleman Dave Neary over in Whiteswhoro. He's mad I trashed his race-bashing coach bashing posts so now, in that infinite "ooootica inbreed wisdom" he automatically thinks anyone posting from United States is me.
Easy to see why he couldn't make "detective" isn't it? They DREAM of a tinbadge and the Just Add Water Authority they get from that crackerjack box. Funnier still when they actually DO hire stupid morons for detectives there and that imbecile STILL couldn't hack it.... but you can tell he'd try!
Hockey in uterus is doing well only because Heenan is pushing so hard. However it won't take long for the "Utica-ness" to drag that down.... utica's sewer water sinks all boats... as they say.
Anyone posting like Cretin, is..........Cretin!
The Cretin

Gouverneur, NY

#96 Mar 8, 2013
lot has to happen wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW, you're gay
BTW you're..........Cretin!
fwiw

Morrisville, NY

#97 Mar 8, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
The attendance numbers don't lie. They were what they were.
Yes they were. I have to agree. And they were bad enough that ownership decided to leave town.

You can google what you want. Those that were there know first hand, that they were lucky to have 2,000 paying customers at a game. The website quoting an average of 2800 probably uses the same math that says the red sox have sold out every game for 400 years. Every sane person knows that reported attendance numbers are universally inflated, in part because they are reported by a biased party.

Those that weren't fresh out of NH high school and living with their parents back in '93 remembers utica hockey fans begging everyone in town to get down to the Aud and watch a game, so they could show ownership how awesome utica was, and that they were making a huge mistake if they left. Please don't leave, sniff sniff. Nobody showed and they left. Accept it. Hockey fail. Again.

Then what? The Blizzard? OMG fail.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#98 Mar 8, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes they were. I have to agree. And they were bad enough that ownership decided to leave town.
You can google what you want. Those that were there know first hand, that they were lucky to have 2,000 paying customers at a game. The website quoting an average of 2800 probably uses the same math that says the red sox have sold out every game for 400 years. Every sane person knows that reported attendance numbers are universally inflated, in part because they are reported by a biased party.
Those that weren't fresh out of NH high school and living with their parents back in '93 remembers utica hockey fans begging everyone in town to get down to the Aud and watch a game, so they could show ownership how awesome utica was, and that they were making a huge mistake if they left. Please don't leave, sniff sniff. Nobody showed and they left. Accept it. Hockey fail. Again.
Then what? The Blizzard? OMG fail.
Attendance was the furthest from the truth of why the devils left but keep playing your broken record. And as far as people "in the know", I've already posted about my family's connections with the teams so I guess we were in "the know".

Enjoy the flames people. Don't let the few negative people affect you. See you in the fall!
UticaHockey

Waterville, NY

#99 Mar 8, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes they were. I have to agree. And they were bad enough that ownership decided to leave town.
You can google what you want. Those that were there know first hand, that they were lucky to have 2,000 paying customers at a game. The website quoting an average of 2800 probably uses the same math that says the red sox have sold out every game for 400 years. Every sane person knows that reported attendance numbers are universally inflated, in part because they are reported by a biased party.
Those that weren't fresh out of NH high school and living with their parents back in '93 remembers utica hockey fans begging everyone in town to get down to the Aud and watch a game, so they could show ownership how awesome utica was, and that they were making a huge mistake if they left. Please don't leave, sniff sniff. Nobody showed and they left. Accept it. Hockey fail. Again.
Then what? The Blizzard? OMG fail.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one as I regularly the Utica Devils games as well as many of the teams that followed. There were many Devils games on Wednesday and Thursday nights that the attendance was in the 1700 to 2200 range but Friday and Saturdays constantly drew in the 2600 to 3300 range with many nights in the 3300+ range. I honestly believe the attendance averages listed on the internet are accurate.

After the Devils left the teams that followed such as the Bulldogs, Blizzard and Prowlers were a different story as they never drew well at all. Between shady ownership and a quality of hockey much lower than the AHL at prices at the time that was about the same as when the Devils left many former Devils fans stayed away. I know a number of former Devils fans that drove out to Syracuse to watch the Crunch instead of supporting the CoHL and UHL teams in Utica. Yes I remember vividly the constant threats from shady owners like the Blizzard's Jeff Croop that he would move the team if the hockey fans in Utica didn't step up and purchase X amount of season tickets.
fwiw

Morrisville, NY

#100 Mar 8, 2013
Yes they left for the sweetheart deal made by the Pepsi Arena. Even though they were making bank in utica... they figured they would leave all that money behind and take the lower lease.[That's sarcasm. I feel I have to point that out because you are dense.]

They took the lower lease because they were losing money in utica. Read that again. Losing money. Maybe you mom could explain that to you since she was "in the know." Lets see? Less overhead, a new arena, and a city that might show up vs. utica, more overhead, a dump, and a city that couldn't put asses in the seats that final year even with the OD and every other outlet begging people to get down to the aud. utica: low attendance - lease expense = losing money. albany: avg attendance - lease expense = breakeven. Yes attendance was the furthest thing from their mind when the devils left.[more sarcasm]

Other than that, utica in the 90's was light years different than utica in 2013. Walk down LaFayette St. tonight at 11:30 and check it out. I am sure if there was a hockey game once or twice a week that area would look like seatle and it would be packed like Destiny USA.

go away.

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