reality

Yorkville, NY

#41 Mar 6, 2013
paul newman wrote:
How many home games will there be ?
I'm going to guess 38? If that's not right it's at least close. Season ticket price? I'm going to guess $400-$450....just my guess.
Rico Suave

Cortland, NY

#42 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
I find it funny who call other people idiots especially those that no ZERO the details of what is going on.
Know, as in "know zero the details". Please carry on with your explanation of how you're not an idiot.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#43 Mar 6, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont know where you dream up your facts, but, the lowest ticket price for AHL hockey in the northeast is $12 in Rochester. The LOWEST; and that is subsidized. Tix here will be much higher.
Watch the interview with Robert esche. It's posted in the flames fan club thread.
Level 3

Since: Jul 12

Springfield, MA

#44 Mar 6, 2013
reality wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm going to guess 38? If that's not right it's at least close. Season ticket price? I'm going to guess $400-$450....just my guess.
season tickets when the devils where here were around 450 for 40 games.. i would say you will be around 600 now.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#45 Mar 6, 2013
Rico Suave wrote:
<quoted text>
Know, as in "know zero the details". Please carry on with your explanation of how you're not an idiot.
Sometimes the spell check has a mind of its own. Now you can carry on.
reality

Yorkville, NY

#46 Mar 6, 2013
sticks35 wrote:
<quoted text>season tickets when the devils where here were around 450 for 40 games.. i would say you will be around 600 now.
You would think, but this isn't the NFL.
NHL (and AHL) both took a hit in recent years.
Payroll had dropped.
I think Syracuse is $500.

We'll see. Will be interesting to say the least, that is if it all goes through. Ya never know, this Flames thing cold be an early April Fools joke for all we know. There's a LOT of time between now and end of the month!
Level 3

Since: Jul 12

Holden, MA

#47 Mar 6, 2013
reality wrote:
<quoted text>
You would think, but this isn't the NFL.
NHL (and AHL) both took a hit in recent years.
Payroll had dropped.
I think Syracuse is $500.
We'll see. Will be interesting to say the least, that is if it all goes through. Ya never know, this Flames thing cold be an early April Fools joke for all we know. There's a LOT of time between now and end of the month!
$500 is a nice number.,.thats around $13 a game. Ill take two of those please!!!
fwiw

Utica, NY

#48 Mar 6, 2013
Well there's $1k!

Only have to move 4,998 more season tickets and they will be ready to make a profit!

The minimum AHL salary for 2013 is $41,500. With a 30 man roster, bare minimum payroll will be 1,245,000. More than likely it will be closer to $1.5M. Throw a coaching staff on that, equipment, travel, and ice time and you are at $2M in expenses easily. There will be some other overhead, insurance, marketing, etc.

On the revenue side... The auds capacity is 5,700. Pack that full for 40 games you bring in $3.4M at $15 a pop.

at 75% capacity your revenue will be down to $2.5M. Breakeven.

at 50% capacity your revenue will be down to $1.7M. Loss.

Better pack that thing!
UticaHockey

Utica, NY

#49 Mar 6, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Well there's $1k!
Only have to move 4,998 more season tickets and they will be ready to make a profit!
The minimum AHL salary for 2013 is $41,500. With a 30 man roster, bare minimum payroll will be 1,245,000. More than likely it will be closer to $1.5M. Throw a coaching staff on that, equipment, travel, and ice time and you are at $2M in expenses easily. There will be some other overhead, insurance, marketing, etc.
On the revenue side... The auds capacity is 5,700. Pack that full for 40 games you bring in $3.4M at $15 a pop.
at 75% capacity your revenue will be down to $2.5M. Breakeven.
at 50% capacity your revenue will be down to $1.7M. Loss.
Better pack that thing!
Seeing how the Aud's capacity for hockey is something like 3858 and not 5700 tells me there is something wrong with your calculations. So if the break even point is higher than the number of total seats in the building then I would guess your entire theory is full of bad assumptions...
Level 3

Since: Jul 12

Grafton, MA

#50 Mar 6, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Well there's $1k!
Only have to move 4,998 more season tickets and they will be ready to make a profit!
The minimum AHL salary for 2013 is $41,500. With a 30 man roster, bare minimum payroll will be 1,245,000. More than likely it will be closer to $1.5M. Throw a coaching staff on that, equipment, travel, and ice time and you are at $2M in expenses easily. There will be some other overhead, insurance, marketing, etc.
On the revenue side... The auds capacity is 5,700. Pack that full for 40 games you bring in $3.4M at $15 a pop.
at 75% capacity your revenue will be down to $2.5M. Breakeven.
at 50% capacity your revenue will be down to $1.7M. Loss.
Better pack that thing!
not everything would fall on the ahl club. The nhl clubs normally provide the coaching and training staffs.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#51 Mar 6, 2013
Fair enough.

The auds listed total capacity is 5,700 for concerts. 4,000 or so for hockey. From wikipedia.

And I am not pretending to have calculated anything. I was just putting down some back of the napkin math. It certainly is off. But you have to have a ballpark jumping off point. Work with it. Where is it off?

I mean if the capacity is only 3900 and they sell out all 40 games were talking $2.4M in revenue. That aint gonna cut it.

The minimum AHL salary is listed online. Most rosters are have 29-30 players. Rochester has 10 coaches, trainers, managers and a team doctor.

What are the other revenue streams besides home game tickets?
UticaHockey

Utica, NY

#52 Mar 6, 2013
There is a cost side of running an AHL team that you have to look at as well. AHL players and coaches are under contract to the NHL parent team who pays their salaries. I believe every AHL affiliation agreement is different but for the most part the AHL team ownership is responsible for the cost of the arena lease, office staff and transportation cost.

After the AHL pulled out of Utica 20 years ago and merged with the now defunct IHL there was a trend to move to much bigger cities with larger venues. Not only did Utica lose their AHL team but so did Binghamton and Glens Falls. That strategy didn't work out that well because travel expenses went through the roof when they expanded all over the USA and Canada and it is very expensive to play in a 15,000+ seat arena where teams routinely only have 4500 seats sold.

In recent years the AHL has returned to the more traditional smaller upstate NY cities like Binghamton and Glens Falls with 4500 or so capacity arenas to lower the overall cost of operations. Utica fits nicely into the new strategy with 8 or so teams less than a 3 1/2 hour bus drive away.

IF you put 3300 people in the Aud the place is rocking. If you put 5000 people in Cleveland in a 19,000 seat arena where the NBA Cavaliers play what you notice is a sea of empty seats.
Level 3

Since: Jul 12

Grafton, MA

#53 Mar 6, 2013
UticaHockey wrote:
There is a cost side of running an AHL team that you have to look at as well. AHL players and coaches are under contract to the NHL parent team who pays their salaries. I believe every AHL affiliation agreement is different but for the most part the AHL team ownership is responsible for the cost of the arena lease, office staff and transportation cost.
After the AHL pulled out of Utica 20 years ago and merged with the now defunct IHL there was a trend to move to much bigger cities with larger venues. Not only did Utica lose their AHL team but so did Binghamton and Glens Falls. That strategy didn't work out that well because travel expenses went through the roof when they expanded all over the USA and Canada and it is very expensive to play in a 15,000+ seat arena where teams routinely only have 4500 seats sold.
In recent years the AHL has returned to the more traditional smaller upstate NY cities like Binghamton and Glens Falls with 4500 or so capacity arenas to lower the overall cost of operations. Utica fits nicely into the new strategy with 8 or so teams less than a 3 l1/2 hour bus drive away.
IF you put 3300 people in the Aud the place is rocking. If you put 5000 people in Cleveland in a 19,000 seat arena where the NBA Cavaliers play what you notice is a sea of empty seats.
well said. When the price of fuel and travel went up three yrs ago it changed everything. Sometimes its not about making money but limiting your losses. Im sure to some teams with high side travel costs (ie abbortsford)along with renting a 15000 seat arena tthat is 3/4 empty(ie hartford) utica would look atractive.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#54 Mar 6, 2013
UticaHockey wrote:
There is a cost side of running an AHL team that you have to look at as well. AHL players and coaches are under contract to the NHL parent team who pays their salaries. I believe every AHL affiliation agreement is different but for the most part the AHL team ownership is responsible for the cost of the arena lease, office staff and transportation cost.
After the AHL pulled out of Utica 20 years ago and merged with the now defunct IHL there was a trend to move to much bigger cities with larger venues. Not only did Utica lose their AHL team but so did Binghamton and Glens Falls. That strategy didn't work out that well because travel expenses went through the roof when they expanded all over the USA and Canada and it is very expensive to play in a 15,000+ seat arena where teams routinely only have 4500 seats sold.
In recent years the AHL has returned to the more traditional smaller upstate NY cities like Binghamton and Glens Falls with 4500 or so capacity arenas to lower the overall cost of operations. Utica fits nicely into the new strategy with 8 or so teams less than a 3 1/2 hour bus drive away.
IF you put 3300 people in the Aud the place is rocking. If you put 5000 people in Cleveland in a 19,000 seat arena where the NBA Cavaliers play what you notice is a sea of empty seats.
Yup.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#55 Mar 6, 2013
sticks35 wrote:
<quoted text> well said. When the price of fuel and travel went up three yrs ago it changed everything. Sometimes its not about making money but limiting your losses. Im sure to some teams with high side travel costs (ie abbortsford)along with renting a 15000 seat arena tthat is 3/4 empty(ie hartford) utica would look atractive.
...and yup.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#56 Mar 7, 2013
sticks35 wrote:
<quoted text> well said. When the price of fuel and travel went up three yrs ago it changed everything. Sometimes its not about making money but limiting your losses. Im sure to some teams with high side travel costs (ie abbortsford)along with renting a 15000 seat arena tthat is 3/4 empty(ie hartford) utica would look atractive.
Agree with both posts.$4 gas has changed a lot of things.

That said, one line in your last post stands out,...and I couldn't agree more. "Sometimes its not about making money but limiting your losses."

A move to utica is an attempt to lose less money. Less overhead, fewer empty seats, less travel. They will struggle to put enough butts in the seats to break even. But they are willing to give that a go. It is possible that they don't even care. They'd rather lose $250k than $750k.

I say they'd be happy to avg 2,500 a game.(They probably won't, but they might in a best case scenario.) There's $1.5M. They cut travel costs, lower overhead, and finish with a manageable loss. Then when the economy brightens up... it's goodbye utica. The AHL will up and move back to a city with a larger population, a nicer venue, and the potential for profits. They will be out of here so fast all you will see is smoke from their tires.
UticaHockey

Utica, NY

#57 Mar 7, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree with both posts.$4 gas has changed a lot of things.
That said, one line in your last post stands out,...and I couldn't agree more. "Sometimes its not about making money but limiting your losses."
A move to utica is an attempt to lose less money. Less overhead, fewer empty seats, less travel. They will struggle to put enough butts in the seats to break even. But they are willing to give that a go. It is possible that they don't even care. They'd rather lose $250k than $750k.
I say they'd be happy to avg 2,500 a game.(They probably won't, but they might in a best case scenario.) There's $1.5M. They cut travel costs, lower overhead, and finish with a manageable loss. Then when the economy brightens up... it's goodbye utica. The AHL will up and move back to a city with a larger population, a nicer venue, and the potential for profits. They will be out of here so fast all you will see is smoke from their tires.
I don't claim to be an insider but I can't imagine Rob Esche is going it alone here. He must have some credible business partners with a well documented business plan or the AHL would not even consider allowing Utica into the league. This is not the UHL or CoHL where any potential owner who could cough up the expansion fee was granted a franchise. The owners in these league depended on the income generated from expansion fees to help keep their own operations going. Because of this they let some underfunded teams into the league that were destined to fail because they did not have enough cash flow to keep the teams going. The AHL is not like those other leagues.

And this is not a ball field in Iowa where "if you build it they will come". The local ownership will have to market this team to the entire Utica/Rome region to be successful and put fannies in the seats on a consistent basis. I'm very interested in seeing who Rob is partnered with and what their marketing plans are because I'm sure they have a very credible plan or Utica would never had been considered by the AHL in the first place.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#58 Mar 7, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree with both posts.$4 gas has changed a lot of things.
That said, one line in your last post stands out,...and I couldn't agree more. "Sometimes its not about making money but limiting your losses."
A move to utica is an attempt to lose less money. Less overhead, fewer empty seats, less travel. They will struggle to put enough butts in the seats to break even. But they are willing to give that a go. It is possible that they don't even care. They'd rather lose $250k than $750k.
I say they'd be happy to avg 2,500 a game.(They probably won't, but they might in a best case scenario.) There's $1.5M. They cut travel costs, lower overhead, and finish with a manageable loss. Then when the economy brightens up... it's goodbye utica. The AHL will up and move back to a city with a larger population, a nicer venue, and the potential for profits. They will be out of here so fast all you will see is smoke from their tires.
The entire league is in a downsizing mode. When the adirondack phantoms leave after next season for Lehigh valley I wouldn't be surprised if New Jersey uproots out of Albany heads to glens falls. Same general area, same travel costs, but they won't be paying for a rink that sits 14500 people. A rink they average 3700 fans.

Don't be under the assumption a team will leave for bigger markets. Again the league already tried that and that's why you're seeing the move back to places like utica.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#59 Mar 7, 2013
Everyone agrees the league is in downsizing/cost cutting mode.

However, when times are good and people are spending, there is no question that there is more upside in the bigger markets, than there ever could be in utica.

With that, the economy is a cycle. At some point things will improve, and the prospect of losing money in utica vs. making a profit in an actual city... Well, the league already tried it for a reason and the lure of selling the product to a bigger audience, growing the business, and making money will be the incentive for them to try it again.

It is hard to imagine a credible business plan where the expectation is to lose money, indefinitely. I mean, what could the marketing plan look like that puts them into the black, in one to two years? Other than packing the aud 40 games a year I am not sure how that works.

...and you know my opinion on attendance.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#60 Mar 7, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Everyone agrees the league is in downsizing/cost cutting mode.
However, when times are good and people are spending, there is no question that there is more upside in the bigger markets, than there ever could be in utica.
With that, the economy is a cycle. At some point things will improve, and the prospect of losing money in utica vs. making a profit in an actual city... Well, the league already tried it for a reason and the lure of selling the product to a bigger audience, growing the business, and making money will be the incentive for them to try it again.
It is hard to imagine a credible business plan where the expectation is to lose money, indefinitely. I mean, what could the marketing plan look like that puts them into the black, in one to two years? Other than packing the aud 40 games a year I am not sure how that works.
...and you know my opinion on attendance.
But what you're missing is those teams that did move into bigger markets played in those bigger markets all through the economic glory days...it still didnt work.

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