fwiw

Utica, NY

#21 Mar 5, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
That's oneida county. You're forgetting about herkimer county. The number is 297000 people as considered to be in the utica Rome market. You need to search a little better. The number in binghampton is under 250000 people. And 500 bucks for season tickets sounds like a steal to me. 500 divided by 40 games is 12.50 a seat. How much does a movie cost these days?
And you mention people from Albany and Syracuse not going to utica. You're right. Why would they? There's nothing in utica to attract them there...see where I'm going with this?
I provided links. If that is too hard for you to do, then explain to everyone how adding in herkimer county increases the population of the utica-rome area, given that neither utica nor rome lie in herkimer county?

I mean I get it. You want to include the valley as the "utica area". Fine.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore...

Herkimer County's population is 64k. The whole county. And that is down from 67k back in 1980.

Whatever, right now Oneida and Herkimer counties are at 230k and 60k. Thats 290k in two whole counties. Not the "utica-rome" area. Not 297k.

Cold Brook, Big Moose, Old Forge, Camden, Booneville, Bridgewater... those are not in the utica-rome area.

Beyond that, to claim that the regions population has not declined during the past 30 years is insane. You lose credibility there. It most certainly has. By all measures. Anyway, you lack the ability to be objective, or to accept facts, so further discussion is a waste of our time.

I am pretty sure before this is over you will hear quite a few I told you so's.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#22 Mar 5, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
I provided links. If that is too hard for you to do, then explain to everyone how adding in herkimer county increases the population of the utica-rome area, given that neither utica nor rome lie in herkimer county?
I mean I get it. You want to include the valley as the "utica area". Fine.
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore...
Herkimer County's population is 64k. The whole county. And that is down from 67k back in 1980.
Whatever, right now Oneida and Herkimer counties are at 230k and 60k. Thats 290k in two whole counties. Not the "utica-rome" area. Not 297k.
Cold Brook, Big Moose, Old Forge, Camden, Booneville, Bridgewater... those are not in the utica-rome area.
Beyond that, to claim that the regions population has not declined during the past 30 years is insane. You lose credibility there. It most certainly has. By all measures. Anyway, you lack the ability to be objective, or to accept facts, so further discussion is a waste of our time.
I am pretty sure before this is over you will hear quite a few I told you so's.
As of the latest census information the market size for the utica Rome area is 297,000 plus. Ill dig up the info since you want to make this some sort of pissing match.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#23 Mar 5, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
I provided links. If that is too hard for you to do, then explain to everyone how adding in herkimer county increases the population of the utica-rome area, given that neither utica nor rome lie in herkimer county?
I mean I get it. You want to include the valley as the "utica area". Fine.
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore...
Herkimer County's population is 64k. The whole county. And that is down from 67k back in 1980.
Whatever, right now Oneida and Herkimer counties are at 230k and 60k. Thats 290k in two whole counties. Not the "utica-rome" area. Not 297k.
Cold Brook, Big Moose, Old Forge, Camden, Booneville, Bridgewater... those are not in the utica-rome area.
Beyond that, to claim that the regions population has not declined during the past 30 years is insane. You lose credibility there. It most certainly has. By all measures. Anyway, you lack the ability to be objective, or to accept facts, so further discussion is a waste of our time.
I am pretty sure before this is over you will hear quite a few I told you so's.
"As of the 2010 census, the Utica-Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area had a population of 299,397, which is almost 50,000 more than Binghamton (251,725)."

Bottom of the article. The number is actually higher than the other data I found. Ill find the other ones as well.

http://php.pressconnects.com/blogs/bsens/2013...
fwiw

Utica, NY

#24 Mar 5, 2013
Whatever.

The county population figures I provided were from July 2011.

It seems unrealistic that if combined both counties had 290k people back in 2011, a year or two later 102% of that population finds itself in the utica-rome market?

Did everyone in camden up and move 40 miles closer?

Anyway, I find either the number suspect or the definition of the utica-rome market deceptive....until proven otherwise.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#25 Mar 5, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Whatever.
The county population figures I provided were from July 2011.
It seems unrealistic that if combined both counties had 290k people back in 2011, a year or two later 102% of that population finds itself in the utica-rome market?
Did everyone in camden up and move 40 miles closer?
Anyway, I find either the number suspect or the definition of the utica-rome market deceptive....until proven otherwise.
I figured you'd say that. Ill dig up the other links as well.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#26 Mar 5, 2013
Here I did it for you...

Your blog post references the Utica-Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area.

"The Utica-Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area, as defined by the United States Census Bureau, is an area consisting of two counties in central New York, anchored by the cities of Utica and Rome. As of the 2010 census, the MSA had a population of 299,397."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utica-Rome_Metro...

So there is the deception. The "market" is defined by two whole counties. More than a stretch to consider 3000 square miles the utica-rome market.

No marketing person would try to pull that trick in a pitch to actual investors. Unless he expects people to chuckle.

But you read it in a blog on the internet so it must be true!

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#27 Mar 5, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Here I did it for you...
Your blog post references the Utica-Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area.
"The Utica-Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area, as defined by the United States Census Bureau, is an area consisting of two counties in central New York, anchored by the cities of Utica and Rome. As of the 2010 census, the MSA had a population of 299,397."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utica-Rome_Metro...
So there is the deception. The "market" is defined by two whole counties. More than a stretch to consider 3000 square miles the utica-rome market.
No marketing person would try to pull that trick in a pitch to actual investors. Unless he expects people to chuckle.
But you read it in a blog on the internet so it must be true!
I guess you can offset any of the further outstretches of the two counties in relation to the utica market by adding parts of herkimer county.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#28 Mar 5, 2013
Uh no. You can't cover anything by adding parts of herkimer county. The MSA already includes every living person in both oneida and herkimer counties by its definition.

That's why it is ridiculous. No person purchasing a franchise would expect its customers to be from such a expansive geographic area.

Including population from old forge and camden in the utica-rome market for a business located in downtown utica is borderline comical. Any investor considering a greater utica business and basing its viability on a population of 290k deserves to lose money.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#29 Mar 5, 2013
fwiw wrote:
Uh no. You can't cover anything by adding parts of herkimer county. The MSA already includes every living person in both oneida and herkimer counties by its definition.
That's why it is ridiculous. No person purchasing a franchise would expect its customers to be from such a expansive geographic area.
Including population from old forge and camden in the utica-rome market for a business located in downtown utica is borderline comical. Any investor considering a greater utica business and basing its viability on a population of 290k deserves to lose money.
So you can't include people who live in Frankfort, ilion, and herkimer as potential customers (herkimer county) who's residence is significantly closer to the aud than say a Clinton resident or boonville resident? You can't have it both ways. You can't exclude the far reaches of those two counties and not include the closer communities of herkimer county too.

By the way, old forge is in herkimer county.
Stinky Left Pinky

Grafton, MA

#30 Mar 5, 2013
I hear there are going to be cheerleaders and scratch and sniff seats games the night after UC plays.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#31 Mar 5, 2013
I am gonna try not to insult you. But if you can't follow this, you are too slow to have an adult discussion with.

Last try.

The Utica Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area. It is named Utica Rome because those are the two anchor cities in that region. However, the ENTIRE populations of both Oneida and Herkimer counties are included in the Utica Rome MSA number. That is why the pop number is 290k. 230k live in Oneida county. 60k live in Herkimer county. The two counties cover almost 3000 square miles.

You can include people in frankfort, ilion, and herkimer. Nobody said you can't.

But the Utica Rome MSA, includes ALL of Oneida AND Herkimer counties. So that 290k includes Old Forge in Herkimer county. It includes Camden in Oneida County. Etc. It is asinine to suggest that the aud will draw from 290k people on a given night.

Now if you said, say, 125k, Greater Utica-Rome-valley, that might be believable.

I can't dumb it down any more than that.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#32 Mar 5, 2013
fwiw wrote:
I am gonna try not to insult you. But if you can't follow this, you are too slow to have an adult discussion with.
Last try.
The Utica Rome Metropolitan Statistical Area. It is named Utica Rome because those are the two anchor cities in that region. However, the ENTIRE populations of both Oneida and Herkimer counties are included in the Utica Rome MSA number. That is why the pop number is 290k. 230k live in Oneida county. 60k live in Herkimer county. The two counties cover almost 3000 square miles.
You can include people in frankfort, ilion, and herkimer. Nobody said you can't.
But the Utica Rome MSA, includes ALL of Oneida AND Herkimer counties. So that 290k includes Old Forge in Herkimer county. It includes Camden in Oneida County. Etc. It is asinine to suggest that the aud will draw from 290k people on a given night.
Now if you said, say, 125k, Greater Utica-Rome-valley, that might be believable.
I can't dumb it down any more than that.
You don't need to dumb it down for me. To think people from those surrounding areas don't drive into utica is first of all insane and just not true. If you dispute the census or don't like the numbers do your little research on say...the binghampton area in the study with less population. They have a successful ahl team and suffer the same economic woes as the utica area if not more. Also making 3000 square miles sound so grand considering that a good majority of northern oneida and herkimer county has no residences is extremely misleading. The total square miles of NY state is almost 55000 square miles. Using this grand "square miles" comparison is no different than trying to compare a square mile of real estate in upper manhattan with a thousand square miles of upper herkimer county.

Anyway, the deal is done. Bank it. All this talk is nonsense anyway. See everyone at the end of the month.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#33 Mar 6, 2013
yeah. you are an idiot.

enjoy the team. it won't be here long.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#34 Mar 6, 2013
fwiw wrote:
yeah. you are an idiot.
enjoy the team. it won't be here long.
I'm an idiot? I guess the investment team are idiots too. Typical "utica mentality" bu saying it won't be there long.

I find it funny who call other people idiots especially those that no ZERO the details of what is going on. Enjoy the games.
Taxes

Camillus, NY

#35 Mar 6, 2013
Hopefully the area does not spend tax monies on bringing an AHL Hockey team to this area. I am all for the team but do not believe tax money should be spent to bring it here or to support it. It is a private venture. The area has way too many more important areas to address. A hockey team supports a small section of the community and will have a limited impact on job growth in the area.
fwiw

Utica, NY

#36 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm an idiot? I guess the investment team are idiots too. Typical "utica mentality" bu saying it won't be there long.
I find it funny who call other people idiots especially those that no ZERO the details of what is going on. Enjoy the games.
Yes. If they think the greater utica market includes 290k people, then yes, they are idiots too.

You can call it the utica mentality if you want. I call it facts and realism. Amateur MMA is one thing. People in the city will show up for that. They can afford it and they would show up to see blood. They have fought, want to fight, and they can relate to it. AHL is something different. It will be expensive. They have never seen or played hockey. They don't watch it on TV.

AHL investors are banking on NH, clinton, wboro hockey fans to show up. They are hoping to draw from utica and the surrounding area. They are banking that they can duplicate UC's success. UC plays 15 home games and tickets cost less than $10. Don't count on it. And don't count on Herkimer hockey fans driving 30 minutes to drop $60 once or twice a week. Because it will never happen. Never. They'll check it out once like everyone with enough cash will do. Maybe they'll come back once or twice, maybe not. That is reality.

To me the Utica mentality is this: Simpleton, never been out of the area, thinking he can erase corruption, high taxes, poor demographics, and entitlement by cleaning up a building downtown, calling it development, grabbing a handout or a PILOT, and expecting over-sized success that ultimately results in an regional economic boom. The Utica dream.

Utica is no longer relevant in NYS politics. One business will not impact the local economy. Until you address the fundamental problems the area faces, corruption, taxes, crumbling infrastructure, etc. Utica will continue to repel business and educated citizens.

Fix that first. Then you'll see some jobs. Then you can go all luxury and bring in the ballet or a hockey team.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#37 Mar 6, 2013
fwiw wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes. If they think the greater utica market includes 290k people, then yes, they are idiots too.
You can call it the utica mentality if you want. I call it facts and realism. Amateur MMA is one thing. People in the city will show up for that. They can afford it and they would show up to see blood. They have fought, want to fight, and they can relate to it. AHL is something different. It will be expensive. They have never seen or played hockey. They don't watch it on TV.
AHL investors are banking on NH, clinton, wboro hockey fans to show up. They are hoping to draw from utica and the surrounding area. They are banking that they can duplicate UC's success. UC plays 15 home games and tickets cost less than $10. Don't count on it. And don't count on Herkimer hockey fans driving 30 minutes to drop $60 once or twice a week. Because it will never happen. Never. They'll check it out once like everyone with enough cash will do. Maybe they'll come back once or twice, maybe not. That is reality.

Utica is no longer relevant in NYS politics. One business will not impact the local economy. Until you address the fundamental problems the area faces, corruption, taxes, crumbling infrastructure, etc. Utica will continue to repel business and educated citizens.
Fix that first. Then you'll see some jobs. Then you can go all luxury and bring in the ballet or a hockey team.
The average flames ticket will be 12 dollars and it takes you 30 minutes to drive from herkimer to utica please stay out of the right lane.

Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Schenectady, NY

#38 Mar 6, 2013
Stay in the right lane I meant.
paul newman

Derby, CT

#39 Mar 6, 2013
How many home games will there be ?
Really

Utica, NY

#40 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
The average flames ticket will be 12 dollars and it takes you 30 minutes to drive from herkimer to utica please stay out of the right lane.
I dont know where you dream up your facts, but, the lowest ticket price for AHL hockey in the northeast is $12 in Rochester. The LOWEST; and that is subsidized. Tix here will be much higher.

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