Rob Maciol-County Executive?
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#64 Nov 17, 2013
What happened wrote:
? I don't see the mental midgets making ridiculous comments punctuated with "TV character" wisdom from the supporters of worthless Maciol anymore.
Could it be that finally they realized how pathetic their tack was on that or did their internet get shut off?
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time and annoys the pig"

You are a waste of time. If you had any verifiable proof to validate your opinion you would have posted a link to it after repeated requests. That's all I asked for. All you
post is what you are firmly convinced happened even though you weren't there, you didn't attent the Patterson trial and you werenb't part of the subsequent internal review. The Cliff Clavinisms are very appropriate in demonstrating the difference between uneducated opinion and verifiable fact.

If you feel this strongly about what you think you know then you need to address your grievence to the appropriate authorities instead of an anonymous blog. Just think of it, if you are right you'll be a hero among the conspiracy crowd.

I don't know why they haven't released the report. Neither do you. It just doesn't bother me as much as you who think you know everything there is to know about this matter.
What happened

United States

#65 Nov 17, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time and annoys the pig"
You are a waste of time. If you had any verifiable proof to validate your opinion you would have posted a link to it after repeated requests. That's all I asked for. All you
post is what you are firmly convinced happened even though you weren't there, you didn't attent the Patterson trial and you werenb't part of the subsequent internal review. The Cliff Clavinisms are very appropriate in demonstrating the difference between uneducated opinion and verifiable fact.
If you feel this strongly about what you think you know then you need to address your grievence to the appropriate authorities instead of an anonymous blog. Just think of it, if you are right you'll be a hero among the conspiracy crowd.
I don't know why they haven't released the report. Neither do you. It just doesn't bother me as much as you who think you know everything there is to know about this matter.
Look your pathetic retard, YOU'RE the one denying what is publicly known YOU GO LOOK IT UP idiot. Typically, in debate, the one contesting the facts is the one who presents new ones idiot.

The sheriff SAID he'd release a report. FACT. Idiot.
He did NOT deliver the report. FACT. Idiot.

That's not "opinion" asshole, no matter how many time your ignorant upstate retard ass claims it is. Dunno what to tell you yo are definitely a little slow in the head. You really are kinda pathetic and shallow if your SERIOUSLY think this works.

Again because you're "extra stupid", Mayobag SAID he'd release a report. If you don't believe me asshole then go look for it yourself it's out there no matter how much you try to pretend it doesn't matter. Where I come from accountability and responsibility mean DOING AS YOU SAY YOU WILL DO. End of story, and PLEASE go "ignore" me it suits you and explains your ignorance. Does he pay you some way? Nobody could be this feeble or pathetic at basic debate or logic. Well, maybe some upstate rubes!
Also, retard I'll take the "grievance" to many venues INCLUDING the blog asshole I don't listen to what you "want" because you're hardly firing on all cylinders as it is it is clear you're a relative of this scumbag out for a raise or something there's simply no other motivation that would sum up what you tried here moron. Maybe that shyt works with the stupid people you're apparently used to fooling with your ridiculous attempts at making points but it won't work here with normal people, If you don't like what's said on Topix then get the fk off. Is this CLEAR enough for your simpleton?

Now go try to make your point with TV character "wisdom" imbecile. LMAO! This says it ALL about people who support (and claim they don't!) Robert Maciol. They wanna lie and distract and try to squelch it. Marines will be confronting Mayobag BANK on IT!
What happened

United States

#66 Nov 17, 2013
BTW if you say you "don't care" then that just makes you a substandard coward afraid to confront the truth. Not everyone is as cowardly as you or choses to hide their head in the sand.
If a cop dies on duty there should be a full accounting, apparently accountability and responsibility is totally, pathetically lost on your goat-stupid upstate ass. That's why I have little trouble suspecting you're either Maciol or one of his little women excuse-makers or barnacle family member.
Nothing to say, TV wisdom, yada yada yada, no interest in seeing the man deliver on a promise he's simply too cowardly to speak about I guess!
Da Law

Malone, NY

#67 Nov 17, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know why they haven't released the report. Neither do you. It just doesn't bother me as much as you who think you know everything there is to know about this matter.
The problem is that no one knows what happened. Well, other than the fact that there was clearly a catastrophic failure of command authority. That's one of the few undeniable facts we have, and it directly reflects on Mr. Maciol.

If you'd like I would be happy to provide some evidence. Just give the word.
Da Law

Malone, NY

#68 Nov 17, 2013
What happened wrote:
<quoted text>The won't address you directly, they'll claim they don't understand and demand links to go argue like little children over.
That's fine with me. The evidence of the department's failure to maintain command and control functions during the standoff is readily available. On that point there's really nothing to argue about.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#69 Nov 17, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem is that no one knows what happened. Well, other than the fact that there was clearly a catastrophic failure of command authority. That's one of the few undeniable facts we have, and it directly reflects on Mr. Maciol.
If you'd like I would be happy to provide some evidence. Just give the word.
By all means but remember, it has to be verifiable and irrefutable.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#70 Nov 17, 2013
What happened wrote:
<quoted text>Look your pathetic retard, YOU'RE the one denying what is publicly known YOU GO LOOK IT UP idiot. Typically, in debate, the one contesting the facts is the one who presents new ones idiot.
The sheriff SAID he'd release a report. FACT. Idiot.
He did NOT deliver the report. FACT. Idiot.
It is a fact that the report hasn't been released but that doesn't mean that the sheriff is guilty of anything. It just means the report hasn't been released.

The name calling demonstrates your level of intelligence and so does this. You said:
"Typically, in debate, the one contesting the facts is the one who presents new ones idiot."

No, not really. Typically in a debate one side presents a theory or argument and then the other side endeavors to disprove it. In this discussion(debate) you have accused Sheriff Maciol of terrible job performance and wrong doing not only during the Deputy Wyman incident but in the subsequent investigation as well. It's you that has to prove what you say and it's you who has been unable to cite anything credible to support that. That's how debate goes.
Are you trying to say that you are the one presenting the facts in this discussion? That's too funny. The only fact you have is that the inter-department report hasn't been released.

I took this definition of debate from an internet dictionary:
"A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition"

You made the proposition regarding the sheriff's job performance and accused him of wrongdoing. I attacked that proposition(opinion)by asking for real, verifiable, credible evidence of what you say. My evidence that you lose in this "debate" is that you have been unable to support your opinion with anything except the fact that a report hasn't been released. You really should figure out what words mean before you use them.

I said that from what I've seen and read I thought the sheriff is doing a good job, at least fiscally, based on the fact that for each of at least two years he has brought his department in under his alotted budget. That's an indisputable fact and in this time in our history quite an accomplishment in my opinion. Did you see what I did there? I gave an opinion about his fiscal job performance and then presented a verifiable fact to bolster that opinion. For credible evidence of this one need look not further than the Oneida County budgets for the past three years. When I said that earlier you said it was because the sheriff's budget is overblown. That is your opinion unsubstantiated by fatcs and an uneducated as it is. That's how debate works.
You make this too easy. I have to go enjoy the rest of the day. Hope you do the same.
Da Law

Malone, NY

#71 Nov 17, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
By all means but remember, it has to be verifiable and irrefutable.
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
By all means but remember, it has to be verifiable and irrefutable.
We can begin with the immediate aftermath of the incident, since it impacts what kind of information we have to work with. Stunningly, despite the death of Dep. Wyman, there wasn't an immediate debriefing of all officers present at the scene. This complicates any look at the incident, since the actual narrative of what happened wasn't established until weeks later.

Not hours. Not days. Weeks.

IACP guidelines recommend an immediate evidentiary walkthrough of the scene, a preliminary statement on the use of force, and a full interview within 48-72 hours. None of that happened. Why? No one really seems to know. It was a question that came up repeatedly at the trial and no effective explanation was ever given. Given that we have to rely on the testimony offered at trial. That evidence paints a picture of a chaotic scene with no effective command and control, particularly at the point when shooting erupted.

Let's start with the timing of shooting itself. According to testimony from multiple officers the confrontation came about because they were worried that the sun would come up soon.

This boggles the mind.

Not a single officer on site knew when the sun would actually be coming up. They were making a life or death decision about the use of lethal force based on a vague hunch that, well, it was around two in the morning and the sun would come up soon.

This sudden need to rush the confrontation could have been alleviated in just 12 seconds. I know that because it's how long it took me to use Google to find out sunrise on June 7 occurs at 5-25 AM. Military dawn would have been at approximately 4-25 AM. There was no need to suddenly force a confrontation. There were at least two and half hours of total darkness still available, and probably three hours of usable darkness in total.

That leaves us with two possible explanations. One, that every person in the chain of command from Mr. Maciol on down is an idiot. Two, that the given explanation for the rushed confrontation is a load of bollocks.

Which explanation do you prefer?
Da Cretin

Gouverneur, NY

#72 Nov 17, 2013
What happened wrote:
<quoted text>Look your pathetic retard, YOU'RE the one denying what is publicly known YOU GO LOOK IT UP idiot. Typically, in debate, the one contesting the facts is the one who presents new ones idiot.
The sheriff SAID he'd release a report. FACT. Idiot.
He did NOT deliver the report. FACT. Idiot.
That's not "opinion" asshole, no matter how many time your ignorant upstate retard ass claims it is. Dunno what to tell you yo are definitely a little slow in the head. You really are kinda pathetic and shallow if your SERIOUSLY think this works.
Again because you're "extra stupid", Mayobag SAID he'd release a report. If you don't believe me asshole then go look for it yourself it's out there no matter how much you try to pretend it doesn't matter. Where I come from accountability and responsibility mean DOING AS YOU SAY YOU WILL DO. End of story, and PLEASE go "ignore" me it suits you and explains your ignorance. Does he pay you some way? Nobody could be this feeble or pathetic at basic debate or logic. Well, maybe some upstate rubes!
Also, retard I'll take the "grievance" to many venues INCLUDING the blog asshole I don't listen to what you "want" because you're hardly firing on all cylinders as it is it is clear you're a relative of this scumbag out for a raise or something there's simply no other motivation that would sum up what you tried here moron. Maybe that shyt works with the stupid people you're apparently used to fooling with your ridiculous attempts at making points but it won't work here with normal people, If you don't like what's said on Topix then get the fk off. Is this CLEAR enough for your simpleton?
Now go try to make your point with TV character "wisdom" imbecile. LMAO! This says it ALL about people who support (and claim they don't!) Robert Maciol. They wanna lie and distract and try to squelch it. Marines will be confronting Mayobag BANK on IT!
Cretin never stops ranting even if it takes posting to himself. He is a self proclaimed moron high on the smell of his mother's sour snitch.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#73 Nov 17, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
We can begin with the immediate aftermath of the incident, since it impacts what kind of information we have to work with. Stunningly, despite the death of Dep. Wyman, there wasn't an immediate debriefing of all officers present at the scene. This complicates any look at the incident, since the actual narrative of what happened wasn't established until weeks later.
Not hours. Not days. Weeks.
IACP guidelines recommend an immediate evidentiary walkthrough of the scene, a preliminary statement on the use of force, and a full interview within 48-72 hours. None of that happened. Why? No one really seems to know. It was a question that came up repeatedly at the trial and no effective explanation was ever given. Given that we have to rely on the testimony offered at trial. That evidence paints a picture of a chaotic scene with no effective command and control, particularly at the point when shooting erupted.
Let's start with the timing of shooting itself. According to testimony from multiple officers the confrontation came about because they were worried that the sun would come up soon.
This boggles the mind.
Not a single officer on site knew when the sun would actually be coming up. They were making a life or death decision about the use of lethal force based on a vague hunch that, well, it was around two in the morning and the sun would come up soon.
This sudden need to rush the confrontation could have been alleviated in just 12 seconds. I know that because it's how long it took me to use Google to find out sunrise on June 7 occurs at 5-25 AM. Military dawn would have been at approximately 4-25 AM. There was no need to suddenly force a confrontation. There were at least two and half hours of total darkness still available, and probably three hours of usable darkness in total.
That leaves us with two possible explanations. One, that every person in the chain of command from Mr. Maciol on down is an idiot. Two, that the given explanation for the rushed confrontation is a load of bollocks.
Which explanation do you prefer?
I prefer the truth. I've read a lot since this convcersation started to try to determine what that is. Unlike the previous poster(of many names and icons) who seems to want everyone to believe that he/she has the truth in hand, I don't find a clear cut explanation that would lead me to a firm conclusion either way.

You too have written things here that I've not come across in all of the reading I've done. Do you have a link or links to credible reporting that backs up what you've written regarding the investigation(s), how they were or weren't conducted and the minute details?

As I've said numerous times, all I know is what I've read and seen in news reports. That would inlude this from the "Rome Observer" that indicates that an investigation, including narrative and timeline, was undertaken immediately and was ongoing a little more than a week later when this account was published.
http://www.romeobserver.com/articles/2011/06/...

Since then a 4 member independent review panel has completed a report. Upon completion that report was being parsed for possible redactions due to it containing operational details that shouldn't be made public. Like I said previouisly, that's something the military does all the time and doesn't mean that there is a cover-up.

My reading from the news reports I've seen shows that there were two investigations. One was the incident itself and the other was a review of the actions of Deputy Wyman and the Oneida County Sheriff's Department on the night of the incident. The first and more important was the investigation of the killing of Deputy Wyman.

froggyman? first amendment?
Da Law

Malone, NY

#74 Nov 17, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
As I've said numerous times, all I know is what I've read and seen in news reports. That would inlude this from the "Rome Observer" that indicates that an investigation, including narrative and timeline, was undertaken immediately and was ongoing a little more than a week later when this account was published.
http://www.romeobserver.com/articles/2011/06/...
My apologies, but I can't see anything in that report stating that an incident investigation was launched immediately. Could you quote the relevant section?

In any case, that appears to be at odds with the courtroom testimony quoted here: http://wibx950.com/patterson-tells-neighbor-i... Crime scene analysis was underway later on the 7th, which is where the information given during the press conference appears to come from, but actual incident reports weren't done for weeks. Quoting from the above story:

"He (ERT Captain Antanavige) also told the jury that he filed an official report about the incident about two and a half weeks later. Other officers called to testify throughout the week also told the jury that they did not file an incident report immediately."
Since then a 4 member independent review panel has completed a report. Upon completion that report was being parsed for possible redactions due to it containing operational details that shouldn't be made public. Like I said previouisly, that's something the military does all the time and doesn't mean that there is a cover-up.
No, but it holds the potential to conveniently leave out the details that pinpoint where the C&C failure occurred. That's the nice way of saying "blame".

Who yelled out the order to fire? Who decided to fire with officers downrange of the shooters? Who authorized a shot without a clear firing lane? Who emplaced two 40MM gunners without a spotter? Why wasn't the assault plan clearly articulated to all officers on the scene? Why were officers surprised when firing erupted? Why was live fire authorized at 2AM instead of waiting until the planned arrival of relief forces at 3AM? Why was a hostage negotiator given a tactical role? Why does only one officer even remember an order not to assault being given to Dep. Wyman?

The answers to all of these questions can all too easily be redacted for fear of some mythical super-criminal exploiting OCSD's "procedures", such as they are. Given the quality of local criminal class it's farcical to even suggest they'd be capable of such nefarious plotting.
My reading from the news reports I've seen shows that there were two investigations. One was the incident itself and the other was a review of the actions of Deputy Wyman and the Oneida County Sheriff's Department on the night of the incident. The first and more important was the investigation of the killing of Deputy Wyman.
Yes, there was a thorough criminal investigation followed by an incident investigation. Both are equally important in understanding why Dep. Wyman died.
froggyman? first amendment?
Er..what?
Wyman Died Maciol Lied

United States

#75 Nov 17, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a fact that the report hasn't been released but that doesn't mean that the sheriff is guilty of anything. It just means the report hasn't been released.
The name calling demonstrates your level of intelligence and so does this. You said:
"Typically, in debate, the one contesting the facts is the one who presents new ones idiot."
No, not really. Typically in a debate one side presents a theory or argument and then the other side endeavors to disprove it. In this discussion(debate) you have accused Sheriff Maciol of terrible job performance and wrong doing not only during the Deputy Wyman incident but in the subsequent investigation as well. It's you that has to prove what you say and it's you who has been unable to cite anything credible to support that. That's how debate goes.
Are you trying to say that you are the one presenting the facts in this discussion? That's too funny. The only fact you have is that the inter-department report hasn't been released.
I took this definition of debate from an internet dictionary:
"A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition"
You made the proposition regarding the sheriff's job performance and accused him of wrongdoing. I attacked that proposition(opinion)by asking for real, verifiable, credible evidence of what you say. My evidence that you lose in this "debate" is that you have been unable to support your opinion with anything except the fact that a report hasn't been released. You really should figure out what words mean before you use them.
I said that from what I've seen and read I thought the sheriff is doing a good job, at least fiscally, based on the fact that for each of at least two years he has brought his department in under his alotted budget. That's an indisputable fact and in this time in our history quite an accomplishment in my opinion. Did you see what I did there? I gave an opinion about his fiscal job performance and then presented a verifiable fact to bolster that opinion. For credible evidence of this one need look not further than the Oneida County budgets for the past three years. When I said that earlier you said it was because the sheriff's budget is overblown. That is your opinion unsubstantiated by fatcs and an uneducated as it is. That's how debate works.
You make this too easy. I have to go enjoy the rest of the day. Hope you do the same.
Whatever retard. The fact is is you can't defend the scumbag. Crying because I call him names?
Look if you act like a piece of shit some of us aren't children and will call you a piece of shit. I guess you'll have to grow up and learn to handle it. Make whatever petty excuses you can asshole Maciol is insubordinate and does not follow through on his commitments. Wanna split hairs with that retard?
Obviously this is personal for you Cliff Clavin, I just don't know how you got to be so stupid that you'd think any of this works.

Next, speaking of education you need to restate this sentence you lost me moron: "That is your opinion unsubstantiated by fatcs and an uneducated as it is." Huh? You speak about as professionally and eloquently as Maciol. Sure you're not married hun?

Fraud coward Maciol isn't fit for his current fag job as fag sheriff nobody will tolerate him running for anything else ever. Watch the price we pay to be sure of that. Now back to your pedantic whining.
Wyman Died Maciol Lied

United States

#76 Nov 17, 2013
Da Cretin wrote:
<quoted text>
Cretin never stops ranting even if it takes posting to himself. He is a self proclaimed moron high on the smell of his mother's sour snitch.
Funny how Mayobag's supporters are always the ones talking sex perv, cvny, snatch, hole, blah blah blah never a thing to add just like when they stopped emotionally developing in grade school. Sheriff Mayobag must be SO proud of his sex starved imbeciles and their endless sex-on-the-brain comments!
Sleep with dogs......
Cretin Hob

Gouverneur, NY

#77 Nov 18, 2013
Wyman Died Maciol Lied wrote:
<quoted text>Funny how Mayobag's supporters are always the ones talking sex perv, cvny, snatch, hole, blah blah blah never a thing to add just like when they stopped emotionally developing in grade school. Sheriff Mayobag must be SO proud of his sex starved imbeciles and their endless sex-on-the-brain comments!
Sleep with dogs......
I do sleep with dogs as long as they have a sclhlong.

Signed,
Cretin "jump your knob" Hob
ruth

Utica, NY

#79 Nov 18, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
My apologies, but I can't see anything in that report stating that an incident investigation was launched immediately. Could you quote the relevant section?

No, but it holds the potential to conveniently leave out the details that pinpoint where the C&C failure occurred. That's the nice way of saying "blame".
Who yelled out the order to fire? Who decided to fire with officers downrange of the shooters? Who authorized a shot without a clear firing lane? Who emplaced two 40MM gunners without a spotter? Why wasn't the assault plan clearly articulated to all officers on the scene? Why were officers surprised when firing erupted? Why was live fire authorized at 2AM instead of waiting until the planned arrival of relief forces at 3AM? Why was a hostage negotiator given a tactical role? Why does only one officer even remember an order not to assault being given to Dep. Wyman?
The answers to all of these questions can all too easily be redacted for fear of some mythical super-criminal exploiting OCSD's "procedures", such as they are. Given the quality of local criminal class it's farcical to even suggest they'd be capable of such nefarious plotting.
<quoted text>
Yes, there was a thorough criminal investigation followed by an incident investigation. Both are equally important in understanding why Dep. Wyman died.
<quoted text>
Er..what?
The first paragraph of that report says this:
" Eight days had passed since Oneida County Deputy Kurt Wyman was shot and killed handling a domestic dispute in the Town of Augusta when a press conference was held updating the public on the progress of the investigation. Wednesday morning, Oneida County Sheriff Robert Maciol read a prepared statement detailing some of the facts that the Sheriff Office’s investigation into the shooting had revealed."

That last sentence refers to an investigation. Please tell me how an incident report differs from an investigation report. Am I wrong in thinking that the murder investigation and the review of OCSD protocols weren't happening at the same time and as part of the initial investigation? I'm saying that because it would seem to me that one would be incomplete without the other. Is it unusual in law enforcement for an incident report to be filed that long after an incident? I'm asking because I don't know the answer to that. I'm not part of that world and all of the information I get is from the news report.

You, unlike others here, seem well versed in what happened and familiar with minute details. Where you there? Are you part of law enforcement? In any case, I appreciate your tone and the fact that you seem to rely on more than just opinion.

After reading as much as I have about this I've come to wonder something else. What if the report shows that Deputy Wyman violated protocol with the action he took? It's been reported that there was no order given for him to advance on Patterson. Don't get me wrong. Patterson pulled the trigger and caused Wyman's death. When confronted Patterson had a choice. He could give up or shoot. He made the choice and now has a lot of time to contemplate that choice. That said though, what if the report shows that Deputy Wyman's actions were at least in part responsible for his own demise? If that's true then it doesn't reflect badly on Sheriff Maciol. Seems like that would be quite an embarrassment to his memory after dedication of the Kurt Wyman Park, the Kurt Wyman Run and all of the rest.

One last question. If the report is done then why haven't local media outlets filed a FOIL request to have it released?
Da Law

Carthage, NY

#80 Nov 18, 2013
ruth wrote:
<quoted text>
That last sentence refers to an investigation. Please tell me how an incident report differs from an investigation report. Am I wrong in thinking that the murder investigation and the review of OCSD protocols weren't happening at the same time and as part of the initial investigation?
There were two separate, but complimentary, investigations. The first was the criminal investigation that started a few hours after the shooting. That was aimed at collecting evidence for Patterson's prosecution.

The second investigation was an examination of the tactical breakdown. The initial narrative for that was formed from information gathered for the criminal investigation, but it then became a separate effort that culminated in the delayed Wyman report.
Is it unusual in law enforcement for an incident report to be filed that long after an incident?
Yes, very. IACP guidelines for a use of force investigation have a window of 48 to 72 hours for incident reports and debriefing interviews. Waiting two and a half weeks for an incident report from the commander on scene is extremely unusual.
You, unlike others here, seem well versed in what happened and familiar with minute details. Where you there? Are you part of law enforcement?
I'm just an interested bystander with a peripheral connection to some of the people involved.
After reading as much as I have about this I've come to wonder something else. What if the report shows that Deputy Wyman violated protocol with the action he took?
That's already been established. According to testimony Wyman disobeyed a direct order not to frontally assault Patterson. It's one of the strangest details of the incident, since Wyman was a Marine with military assault training. Some of his fellow Marines find the narrative of his behavior, in particular his flagrant insubordination, unconvincing.
That said though, what if the report shows that Deputy Wyman's actions were at least in part responsible for his own demise? If that's true then it doesn't reflect badly on Sheriff Maciol.
Loss of command authority isn't an excuse, it's an indictment. The testimony of Investigator Nowakowski demonstrated that the incident was totally out of control. Only the luckiest of circumstances kept the death toll from climbing higher.
One last question. If the report is done then why haven't local media outlets filed a FOIL request to have it released?
The local media is incompetent. Expecting them to do more than report on bake sales is a sure path to disappointment.
Truth is incorrect

Potsdam, NY

#82 Nov 18, 2013
ruth wrote:
<quoted text>
.......
After reading as much as I have about this I've come to wonder something else. What if the report shows that Deputy Wyman violated protocol with the action he took? It's been reported that there was no order given for him to advance on Patterson. Don't get me wrong. Patterson pulled the trigger and caused Wyman's death. When confronted Patterson had a choice. He could give up or shoot. He made the choice and now has a lot of time to contemplate that choice. That said though, what if the report shows that Deputy Wyman's actions were at least in part responsible for his own demise? If that's true then it doesn't reflect badly on Sheriff Maciol. Seems like that would be quite an embarrassment to his memory after dedication of the Kurt Wyman Park, the Kurt Wyman Run and all of the rest.
One last question. If the report is done then why haven't local media outlets filed a FOIL request to have it released?
You appear to not be aware of the fact that Patterson testified that when the police opened fire on him, he thought the police were attempting to kill him. He had no idea and no way to differentiate between less-than-lethal and lethal munitions. NYS law provides for self defense, even from the police. Your statement about Patterson making a choice and having time to contemplate it is sophomoric. Patterson's REACTION was to defend himself from people who where shooting at him and caused him to fear for his life and defend himself, as is accommodated under the law. The DECISION to open fire on Patterson and not wait him out was a poor choice. Kurt Wyman's DECISION to disobey an order to stay back because he didn't have a long gun was also a poor choice. It can easily be demonstrated the poor choices made by the OSCO and Kurt Wyman (made prior to reactions by Patterson) caused the death of Deputy Wyman. Yet, people are quick to point blame in one direction only, just as you have done.
Truth

Utica, NY

#83 Nov 18, 2013
Truth is incorrect wrote:
<quoted text>
You appear to not be aware of the fact that Patterson testified that when the police opened fire on him, he thought the police were attempting to kill him. He had no idea and no way to differentiate between less-than-lethal and lethal munitions. NYS law provides for self defense, even from the police. Your statement about Patterson making a choice and having time to contemplate it is sophomoric. Patterson's REACTION was to defend himself from people who where shooting at him and caused him to fear for his life and defend himself, as is accommodated under the law. The DECISION to open fire on Patterson and not wait him out was a poor choice. Kurt Wyman's DECISION to disobey an order to stay back because he didn't have a long gun was also a poor choice. It can easily be demonstrated the poor choices made by the OSCO and Kurt Wyman (made prior to reactions by Patterson) caused the death of Deputy Wyman. Yet, people are quick to point blame in one direction only, just as you have done.
What law is it exactly that allows a civilian to shoot at law enforcement in a situation like that? That's a law that I'm certain Patterson's attorney would like to know about.

I didn't blame it all in one direction. I said that Patterson made a choice when he shot at Deputy Wyman. He did. he could have given up rather than picking up the gun. I also wondered about what it would be like if the unreleased report shows that Deputy Wyman by his actions contributed to his own demise.

I just re-read this synopsis of the incident from the Oneida County DA's website. According to this Patterson's lawyer "raised the psychiatric defense of Extreme Emotional Disturbance", not self-defense anyway. Is this account accurate or not?
http://www.ocgov.net/distatty/Patterson

If the average person were to read this account what conclusion would they come to?

I'll be looking for proof of a law that allows shooting at law enforcement in self-defense and then proof that it applies under these circumstances. I certainly won't be holding my breath though because I expect the result to be the same as it was each of the other times I've asked you for real proof to validate your opinions.

Are you firstamendment?
Wrong

United States

#84 Nov 19, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
What law is it exactly that allows a civilian to shoot at law enforcement in a situation like that? That's a law that I'm certain Patterson's attorney would like to know about.
I didn't blame it all in one direction. I said that Patterson made a choice when he shot at Deputy Wyman. He did. he could have given up rather than picking up the gun. I also wondered about what it would be like if the unreleased report shows that Deputy Wyman by his actions contributed to his own demise.
I just re-read this synopsis of the incident from the Oneida County DA's website. According to this Patterson's lawyer "raised the psychiatric defense of Extreme Emotional Disturbance", not self-defense anyway. Is this account accurate or not?
http://www.ocgov.net/distatty/Patterson
If the average person were to read this account what conclusion would they come to?
I'll be looking for proof of a law that allows shooting at law enforcement in self-defense and then proof that it applies under these circumstances. I certainly won't be holding my breath though because I expect the result to be the same as it was each of the other times I've asked you for real proof to validate your opinions.
Are you firstamendment?
Where did anyone say there was some law that said it was "legal"? You keep putting words in people's mouths I notice. And it's usually some stupid idea only you thought up. If you woke up in an instant and were in that guy's shoes obviously the law has, once again, broken down. You must have missed the epidemic of triggerhappy almost-cops killing people across the US. Not Canada, not Italy, the US. So obviously right there this is a "problem" at the feet of US law enforcement. SO regardless of who's fault, why or where if that was you the only other alternative I guess is to, believing you are being shot at by many people at close range, lay down and die.
Remember moron, everyday across the US better trained and capable real police seem to handle "suicidal guy with a gun" calls without getting cops killed in disorganized clownshows. So where are you going with this? Your excuse making while claiming to be this unbiased observer who "just wants to know" is getting thinner with each hair-brained defense. Nobody here, cop or otherwise would ever end up in that moment but if they did, you think you are being shot by the gunhappy police they shove in everyone's face.

Now back to the report. Maciol stated he'd do a review and make the results public. As others have asked, "were we wrong to believe him"? It isn't "too much" to ask that a County Official should keep to his words. It has been over two fucking years. Excuses and puppets won't change it. No amount of money or campaigning or awards can change it. He's simply being asked to do as he stated when he needed relief, desperate just like McNamara. Now the Wyman family has shunned accountability and the Marines and just played along with this freakshow despite fatman throwing him under the bus, only to dust him off two days later to give him an award at a totally contrived BS press release designed to stick cops and their dying "sacrifice" in everyone's face. ALL FOR AN INCIDENT THAT A BETTER MAN WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED! In the navy they would take that mofoker DOWN FOR GOOD one way or the other for that. If he's done so well, and his department has all these excuses... then why are they afraid of releasing it?

The fact is the two aren't mutually exclusive, recognizing this as the clusterfuck it is doesn't mean you agree that it was ok for Patterson to be getting drunk and stupid with guns. I notice the DA and anyone defending these assholes always seems to pretend that it does. You resent people who play stupid for their own benefits so much. God forbid thepussy local media there would ever address THIS one!
Wrong

United States

#85 Nov 19, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
What law is it exactly that allows a civilian to shoot at law enforcement in a situation like that? That's a law that I'm certain Patterson's attorney would like to know about.

Are you firstamendment?
Where did anyone say there was some law that said it was "legal"? You keep putting words in people's mouths I notice. And it's usually some stupid idea only you thought up. If you woke up in an instant and were in that guy's shoes obviously the law has, once again, broken down. You must have missed the epidemic of triggerhappy almost-cops killing people across the US. Not Canada, not Italy, the US. So obviously right there this is a "problem2" at the feet of US law enforcement. SO regardless of who's fault, why or where if that was you the only other alternative I guess is to, believing you are being shot at by many people at close range, lay down and die.
Remember moron, everyday across the US better trained and capable real police seem to handle "suicidal guy with a gun" calls without getting cops killed in disorganized clownshows. So where are you going with this? Your excuse making while claiming to be this unbiased observer who "just wants to know" is getting thinner with each hair-brained defense. Nobody here, cop or otherwise would ever end up in that moment but if they did, you think you are being shot by the gunhappy police they shove in everyone's face. Have your ever been in a gunfight? Unfortunately I have. Much longer ones almost every day. Last time I checked there's really no laws in gunfights, like war. You shoot at me I don't care what page you're on I'm going to hose you.

Now back to the report. Maciol stated he'd do a review and make the results public. As others have asked, "were we wrong to believe him"? It isn't "too much" to ask that a County Official should keep to his words. It has been over two fucking years. Excuses and puppets won't change it. No amount of money or campaigning or awards can change it. He's simply being asked to do as he stated when he needed relief, desperate just like McNamara. Now the Wyman family has shunned accountability and the Marines and just played along with this freakshow despite fatman throwing him under the bus, only to dust him off two days later to give him an award at a totally contrived BS press release designed to stick cops and their dying "sacrifice" in everyone's face. ALL FOR AN INCIDENT THAT A BETTER MAN WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED! In the navy they would take that mofoqker DOWN FOR GOOD one way or the other for that. If he's done so well, and his department has all these excuses... then why are they afraid of releasing it?

The fact is the two aren't mutually exclusive, recognizing this as the clusterfck it is doesn't mean you agree that it was ok for Patterson to be getting drunk and stupid with guns. I notice the DA and anyone defending these azzholes always seems to pretend that it does. You resent people who play stupid for their own benefits so much. God forbid the pu55y local media there would ever address THIS one!
This isn't going away and may eventually become the trigger for some really ugly shyt in the future. Not all of us are as blind or so forgiving.

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