AHL returning?.....read Esche quote

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#163 Mar 2, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
Which doesn't answer the question.
Look, I'll make this easy. To your knowledge is there any economic study demonstrating the viability of an AHL franchise in Utica?
Of course there is. If there wasnt the team wouldn't be coming.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#164 Mar 2, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
Which obviously doesn't answer the question.
Can you see why people are increasingly suspicious about this backroom deal? Any time people ask for specifics it's all smoke and mirrors instead of direct answers. Why the secrecy the obfuscation?
It's all smoke and mirrors as you put it because the info should have never leaked out especially to a website. When the deal is officially announced so will the specifics.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#165 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
Since every business has some sort of government support I guess you could look at them all.
This is simply not true.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#166 Mar 2, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
This is simply not true.
Every business at the very least has tax breaks.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#167 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
The ahl franchise is a business and yes no matter what business where you create it and no matter how big or small there are tax benefits and government support available.
The tax breaks and incentives for those businesses are precisely why we find ourselves in the financial position we are in. Contrary to your assertion, there are plenty of small businesses that use private capital to get started. I think that sometimes those handouts can be considered an investment if they yield long term commitments to the area in terms of good jobs. If they are a maybe it will work, maybe it won't work proposition especially in the area of entertainment I don't think it's worthy of taxpayer support.

I would say that if this is real we will very soon start to hear local politicians start to spin this as a good thing. I think it could be a good thing but only if self-starting and self-sustaining without taxpayer subsidy. There is absolutely no way something like this is worthy of taxpayer support. I hope everyone who may be involved with this understands that.

Just ask this. Does it make sense that the Utica City School District (and other schools in Oneida County) are laying off teachers/cutting programs for budgetery reaons and at the same time someone would agree to subsidize an AHL team at the Aud that may draw 3,000(on a good night)of the quarter million that live in Oneida County?

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#168 Mar 2, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
The tax breaks and incentives for those businesses are precisely why we find ourselves in the financial position we are in. Contrary to your assertion, there are plenty of small businesses that use private capital to get started. I think that sometimes those handouts can be considered an investment if they yield long term commitments to the area in terms of good jobs. If they are a maybe it will work, maybe it won't work proposition especially in the area of entertainment I don't think it's worthy of taxpayer support.
I would say that if this is real we will very soon start to hear local politicians start to spin this as a good thing. I think it could be a good thing but only if self-starting and self-sustaining without taxpayer subsidy. There is absolutely no way something like this is worthy of taxpayer support. I hope everyone who may be involved with this understands that.
Just ask this. Does it make sense that the Utica City School District (and other schools in Oneida County) are laying off teachers/cutting programs for budgetery reaons and at the same time someone would agree to subsidize an AHL team at the Aud that may draw 3,000(on a good night)of the quarter million that live in Oneida County?
Only time will tell.
Hmm

Manlius, NY

#169 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
Every business at the very least has tax breaks.
Every business with political ties or those bringing jobs to the area typically get tax breaks, not every business... There are many small mom and pop shops and other local businesses that do not get tax breaks.

A Hockey Team is for entertainment and will not create many of any direct jobs. It should demonstrate through a study the ecomomic benefits it will bring to the area before any modifications to the aud are funded by any taxpayer money. If the team does come to Utica and leaves after a few years then the taxpayers again could be stuck paying the bill for any aud improvements unless there was a clause added to the contract to penalize the AHL franchise for leaving early and breaking the contract. I am sure studies have been done to assess the viability of AHL hockey in Utica. These studies most likely focused on the profitability for the ownership group and not necessarily the benefits to the local economy and the taxpayer.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#170 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
Every business at the very least has tax breaks.
If you are talking about normal deductions for the normal costs of doing business then yes.

I'm against PILOT programs, government grants(that should more aptly be called taxpayer grants) and any other kind of economic incentives that fall outside what a normal for-profit business gets.

An AHL team will no be an economic driver. Not one person or business will move to this area for the long haul as a result of this team being here. An AHL team will serve only a very small percntage of the population. Regardless how anyone tries to spin the situation, histroy is the best indicator of how these deals work out. They don't.

I hope that any request or suggestion that any taxpaer money in any form be used is greeted by those in power as the politcal hot potato that it should be.

Think City Center. Think Hotel Utica. Think Union Station renovation. Think Stanley Theater backstage expansion. Think about all of the other "projects" that were supposed to be the key to turnaround. Have any of these things lived up to the expectations that were peddled when those in power gave them money?

Want things to turn around? Stop giving all of this money away to projects that just never seem to live up to expectations and use that money to lower taxes and fees.

Orion Bus Industries, Oriskany is having an online auction of all of their local assests including the tools and tooboxes of the now unemployed workers. That worked out well didn't it?.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#171 Mar 2, 2013
Hmm wrote:
<quoted text>
Every business with political ties or those bringing jobs to the area typically get tax breaks, not every business... There are many small mom and pop shops and other local businesses that do not get tax breaks.
A Hockey Team is for entertainment and will not create many of any direct jobs. It should demonstrate through a study the ecomomic benefits it will bring to the area before any modifications to the aud are funded by any taxpayer money. If the team does come to Utica and leaves after a few years then the taxpayers again could be stuck paying the bill for any aud improvements unless there was a clause added to the contract to penalize the AHL franchise for leaving early and breaking the contract. I am sure studies have been done to assess the viability of AHL hockey in Utica. These studies most likely focused on the profitability for the ownership group and not necessarily the benefits to the local economy and the taxpayer.
Only time will tell. Will you be attending the games come fall time?
Da Law

New York, NY

#172 Mar 2, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Think City Center. Think Hotel Utica. Think Union Station renovation. Think Stanley Theater backstage expansion. Think about all of the other "projects" that were supposed to be the key to turnaround. Have any of these things lived up to the expectations that were peddled when those in power gave them money?
Even those notable failures don't come close to the potential disaster that this proposed hockey deal is. If they grab control of the Auditorium itself, and Utica34 has admitted that's the plan, they'll have a never-ending supply of taxpayer funds in the form of the Water Authority payments. So the same cast of characters that looted it in the first place will then be able to dip into that money for the length of the contract. Worse, they'll be able to float bonds with the Aud and it's assets, including the WA money, as collateral.

That should terrify people.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#173 Mar 2, 2013
Da Law wrote:
<quoted text>
Even those notable failures don't come close to the potential disaster that this proposed hockey deal is. If they grab control of the Auditorium itself, and Utica34 has admitted that's the plan, they'll have a never-ending supply of taxpayer funds in the form of the Water Authority payments. So the same cast of characters that looted it in the first place will then be able to dip into that money for the length of the contract. Worse, they'll be able to float bonds with the Aud and it's assets, including the WA money, as collateral.
That should terrify people.
Are you coming to the games this fall?
Really

Herkimer, NY

#174 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you coming to the games this fall?
Your extremely obnoxious attitude is beginning to wear on people. You can see it in the numbers and intensity of posters. At some point it will become evident.

If tax money is utilized in any way to assist this venture those elected officials allowing it will be excoriated for the abdication of their responsibilities to the infrastructure of this community.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#175 Mar 2, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
Your extremely obnoxious attitude is beginning to wear on people. You can see it in the numbers and intensity of posters. At some point it will become evident.
If tax money is utilized in any way to assist this venture those elected officials allowing it will be excoriated for the abdication of their responsibilities to the infrastructure of this community.
So are you coming to the games?
Really

Herkimer, NY

#176 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
So are you coming to the games?
Only if you have the guts to identify and present yourself; so, unlikely.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#177 Mar 2, 2013
Really wrote:
<quoted text>
Only if you have the guts to identify and present yourself; so, unlikely.
Why the hell would I post my name here? How about this, you first?

Hopefully you change your mind about the games. It's good hockey.
Nope

Manlius, NY

#178 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
So are you coming to the games?
No I am not David from Albany...

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#179 Mar 2, 2013
Nope wrote:
<quoted text>
No I am not David from Albany...
Neither am I.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#180 Mar 2, 2013
You should still consider going to some games though.
Nope

Manlius, NY

#181 Mar 2, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
You should still consider going to some games though.
David, as much as you have been posting and defending this team, you really should consider coming up from Albany and attending some games...

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#182 Mar 2, 2013
Nope wrote:
<quoted text>
David, as much as you have been posting and defending this team, you really should consider coming up from Albany and attending some games...
Well my name isn't David but I sure do plan on attending some games. You?

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