AHL returning?.....read Esche quote

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#224 Mar 5, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
You're putting the cart before the horse.
First the businesses and then the frills.
Lower taxes are going to bring businesses in and we won't get lower taxes by financing projects like an AHL team.
Do you really believe that anyone or any business would locate here because there was an AHL affiliate here? Hardly.
I believe that if the quality of life is increased it makes the region more attractive. Hmm...chip plant that utica lost is in Malta. Where's Malta? Right next to Saratoga and its wonderful race track, racino, and great night life. Lots of nice high paid people have moved here. You think they wanted to move to utica? Glens falls also got their hockey team before the chip plant was announced. It's about 15 miles from Malta. Coincidence? Not hardly.
Hey roseyglasses

United States

#225 Mar 5, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
As soon as you got to insults shows your mentality. But thank you for proving my point. Vegas was built because it was conducive to business. If the region doesn't build anything no one will want to stay or come there.
No, it show's your mentality- A weak debater looking for ANY excuse to dismiss what is otherwise truthful. Look fool this isn't your ootica proctard school rules here, you act like a moron espousing dumb ideas and attributions for problems someone's going to call you an idiot whether you mom & dad approve or not ok? Grow some skin.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#226 Mar 5, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Comparing school with a professional hocket team is a strawman.
Right now as a resident of this area I pay some of the highest taxes and fees in the entire United States.
As I explained in the post above, contrary to your belief, those people in the apartments do pay school taxes. Part of their rent goes for school taxes and property taxes. Renting apartments is a business. Businesses exist to make money. If owning a rental property costs more than what is collected in rent then why bother?
Everyone shares the burden. We allow our government to have domain over certain things like education, public works and public safety to name a few. The idea is that those things serve the public trust at large and are services we are will to pay for because we understand what the benefits are. An AHL hockey team does not serve the public at large. It only serves a very small percentage including the ownership who stand to benefit is the venture is successful. That is why I belive that ownership should foot the bill and the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay any part of it. Heck, we as Oneida County residents aren't able to balance the budget without borrowing and doing bookeeping tricks. Every time you pick up a newspaper or watch the evening news someone is cutting back because of a deficit of revenue. Does it seem to you that an AHL hockey team is in any way, shape or form going to change that? Or, is it just another group of "investors" coming to town with their hand out?
Quality of life. Plain and simple.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#227 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
Quality of life. Plain and simple.
When you talk about quality of life you have to take into account orders of magnitude. The OD today says that the Utica City School District is facing another 99 positions cut as a result of funding cuts. Given that, does it sound like a good time for the taxpayers to subsidize an AHL team that will serve ony a minute portion of the local population?

Quality of life will come when jobs come. Jobs will come when we finally realize that lower taxes/less regulation rather than one off schemes like the Stanley, Hotel Utica, the roundabout, Union Station, Utica National building...... don't lead to growth or success. The opposite actually.

Quality of life improves when people have more of the money they earn in their pockets. Then they will demand entertainment like a professional hockey team. Until then I think any kind of public funding for a project like that is actually counter productive.
Truth

Utica, NY

#228 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe that if the quality of life is increased it makes the region more attractive. Hmm...chip plant that utica lost is in Malta. Where's Malta? Right next to Saratoga and its wonderful race track, racino, and great night life. Lots of nice high paid people have moved here. You think they wanted to move to utica? Glens falls also got their hockey team before the chip plant was announced. It's about 15 miles from Malta. Coincidence? Not hardly.
The decision to put that where it went was purely political It had to do with the representative from that area and the cout he had. I'm all for a chip fab. I'm all for seeding that effort with a little bit of incentive if it can be shown that it will result in long term growth and jobs.

An AHL team will do neither of those things. Glens Falls affiliation with the AHL predates the chip plant by many, many years. The Utica Devils regularly played the Adirondack Red Wings 20 years ago. The decison to put the chip fab at Malta had absolutely nothing to do with the hckey team being there and I would challenge you to show evidence to the contrary. It's ridiculous to eeven think it played a part in that decision.

Your posts seem to get more and more delusional as time goes by and as you try to make a case for why there should be public support of this. There is no support for any kind of public funding of this effort. I would hope that in light of the most recent cuts in all areas of the public sector that if this turns out to be true, people will stand up and say to taxpayer dollars being used.

Is it really too much to ask that if a group of investors wants to make this happen that they use their own money and not tax dollars?
Truth

Utica, NY

#229 Mar 6, 2013
Sorry about the double post.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#230 Mar 6, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
When you talk about quality of life you have to take into account orders of magnitude. The OD today says that the Utica City School District is facing another 99 positions cut as a result of funding cuts. Given that, does it sound like a good time for the taxpayers to subsidize an AHL team that will serve ony a minute portion of the local population?
Quality of life will come when jobs come. Jobs will come when we finally realize that lower taxes/less regulation rather than one off schemes like the Stanley, Hotel Utica, the roundabout, Union Station, Utica National building...... don't lead to growth or success. The opposite actually.
Quality of life improves when people have more of the money they earn in their pockets. Then they will demand entertainment like a professional hockey team. Until then I think any kind of public funding for a project like that is actually counter productive.
I 100% disagree. The region is going to attract any jobs or business' without things to do. It's apparent with the chip plant debacle. As far as utica throwing more money at the school system...for what? It's already a failure. And anyone who does graduate packs there bags and leaves anyhow so why worry about it. Give them basic services and that's it. The suburbs already have enough quality programs such as ND, NH, whitesboro, Clinton, holland patent etc.
Truth

Utica, NY

#231 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
I 100% disagree. The region is going to attract any jobs or business' without things to do. It's apparent with the chip plant debacle. As far as utica throwing more money at the school system...for what? It's already a failure. And anyone who does graduate packs there bags and leaves anyhow so why worry about it. Give them basic services and that's it. The suburbs already have enough quality programs such as ND, NH, whitesboro, Clinton, holland patent etc.
WOW! So public funding of an AHL team is more important and more worthy than funding education? That says a lot about your mindset and how ridiculous it is.
I'd rather fund education than an AHL team.

What was the "chip fab debaucle" as you understand it? Do you think it was located in Malta because they didn't want to come here?

I still think you work for a PR firm or other interest that has everything to gain by fostering public support for this effort. Why else would you be on this forum non-stop and fell compelled to anmswer every post.
Truth

Utica, NY

#232 Mar 6, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
I 100% disagree. The region is going to attract any jobs or business' without things to do. It's apparent with the chip plant debacle. As far as utica throwing more money at the school system...for what? It's already a failure. And anyone who does graduate packs there bags and leaves anyhow so why worry about it. Give them basic services and that's it. The suburbs already have enough quality programs such as ND, NH, whitesboro, Clinton, holland patent etc.
Things to do?

We have a Casino right down the road that not only attracts gamblers but world class entertainment most every night of the week. We have a great museum and art school. We have an historic (restored with taxpayer money) theater that isn't living up to the projections but still offers a wide array of entertainment. We have a ski area within the city limits. We have a small zoo. This list goes on and on.

Almost forgot. We actually have a hockey team playing at the Aud that sells out most every time they play there and leads colleges in their category for attendance.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#233 Mar 6, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Things to do?
We have a Casino right down the road that not only attracts gamblers but world class entertainment most every night of the week. We have a great museum and art school. We have an historic (restored with taxpayer money) theater that isn't living up to the projections but still offers a wide array of entertainment. We have a ski area within the city limits. We have a small zoo. This list goes on and on.
Almost forgot. We actually have a hockey team playing at the Aud that sells out most every time they play there and leads colleges in their category for attendance.
And none of that garners national attention at all and quite frankly you cited the example that people won't drive 15 miles for hockey...but they do for a casino?

Personally I don't even know why I'm bothering discussing this. The deal for the team is done. It's coming which is the bottom line. The formal announcement will be at the end of the month. Hopefully people come to the games. It's going to be wonderful.

Is the citizens of utica it's target group? Absolutely not. It's the surrounding areas that will attend the games. Enjoy.
reality

New Hartford, NY

#234 Mar 6, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
WOW! So public funding of an AHL team is more important and more worthy than funding education? That says a lot about your mindset and how ridiculous it is.
I'd rather fund education than an AHL team.
What was the "chip fab debaucle" as you understand it? Do you think it was located in Malta because they didn't want to come here?
I still think you work for a PR firm or other interest that has everything to gain by fostering public support for this effort. Why else would you be on this forum non-stop and fell compelled to answer every post.
Hey look, maybe most people would agree with you that funding education is more important than the AHL. But, the bottom line is when will that happen? I think the funds decrease every damn year and will now only get worse. Our politicians don't do shit about, so the hell with it. Try something different (and in this case it will be hockey).

I agree, education is more important and should be where $$ go, but year after year it DOESN'T! So enough already - blame the same politicians we have in office year after year.

With that said, bring on the Flames!
Really

Herkimer, NY

#235 Mar 6, 2013
reality wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey look, maybe most people would agree with you that funding education is more important than the AHL. But, the bottom line is when will that happen? I think the funds decrease every damn year and will now only get worse. Our politicians don't do shit about, so the hell with it. Try something different (and in this case it will be hockey).
I agree, education is more important and should be where $$ go, but year after year it DOESN'T! So enough already - blame the same politicians we have in office year after year.
With that said, bring on the Flames!
It just seems so fitting that while Utica is burning down we should bring in hockey (of all things) and call them 'the flames'. How appropriate.
ax me_dis

Utica, NY

#236 Mar 6, 2013
Owning a small town sports team is not a profitable venture and he doesn't have the money or credit to finance what is needed. He could get investors but that won't happen since people with that money are smart enought to know it ain't feasible

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#237 Mar 6, 2013
ax me_dis wrote:
Owning a small town sports team is not a profitable venture and he doesn't have the money or credit to finance what is needed. He could get investors but that won't happen since people with that money are smart enought to know it ain't feasible
Really? I suggest you don't tell the folks in binghampton, glens falls, etc about this.
Truth

Herkimer, NY

#238 Mar 7, 2013
reality wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey look, maybe most people would agree with you that funding education is more important than the AHL. But, the bottom line is when will that happen? I think the funds decrease every damn year and will now only get worse. Our politicians don't do shit about, so the hell with it. Try something different (and in this case it will be hockey).
I agree, education is more important and should be where $$ go, but year after year it DOESN'T! So enough already - blame the same politicians we have in office year after year.
With that said, bring on the Flames!
I used education as an example. The problems are much more far reaching than that. If responsible people made a list of priorities for the area and suggestions for where public funds should be allotted, an AHL hockey team doesn't even break the top 100. I hope that polititians holding the purse strings understand this. I also hope that if any taxpayer money is put into this venture that people will express their opinions at the ballot box and get rid of anyone who would make such an irresponsible choice.

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#239 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
I used education as an example. The problems are much more far reaching than that. If responsible people made a list of priorities for the area and suggestions for where public funds should be allotted, an AHL hockey team doesn't even break the top 100. I hope that polititians holding the purse strings understand this. I also hope that if any taxpayer money is put into this venture that people will express their opinions at the ballot box and get rid of anyone who would make such an irresponsible choice.
It's not just an ahl franchise. How hard is this for people to digest? It's a business. No different than any other business. A business that will bring jobs into the region and will offer entertainment.
Truth

Utica, NY

#240 Mar 7, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not just an ahl franchise. How hard is this for people to digest? It's a business. No different than any other business. A business that will bring jobs into the region and will offer entertainment.
Beyond the security and concessions for a few hours during each game, what jobs do you envision? The players, coaches and support staff are a transient group that comes in for the season and then leaves. If it's like when the Utica Devils were here Tiny's might see a boost in business with all of the team groupie girls buying drinks for the players but I don't see a lot of potential for economic growth above and beyond that.

An AHL team is not a serious economic driver and that's why I'm against public funding. While it is a private business, it is entertainment. To my mind entertainment should take a back seat to the things that our region really needs.
Truth

Utica, NY

#241 Mar 7, 2013
From NBC Sports

"The Flames’ history in picking locations to have their minor league team succeed have been dubious to say the least.

Their current location in Abbotsford, B.C. has been a money-losing venture and the team has also failed in Omaha, Nebraska and the Quad Cities in Illinois over the last eight years. Making matters worse, the Heat have the fifth-lowest attendance in the AHL this season.

Vicki Hall of the Calgary Herald shares a statement from the Flames on the matter, via Twitter.

“We have been approached by representatives in Utica concerning an opportunity for the AHL. We understand they are building a case for the AHL to return there. We are under contract and committed to Abbotsford, and have made no alternate commitments.”"

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/24...

Sounds like a promising proposition---not!

Utica34
Level 4

Since: Feb 13

Albany, NY

#242 Mar 7, 2013
Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Beyond the security and concessions for a few hours during each game, what jobs do you envision? The players, coaches and support staff are a transient group that comes in for the season and then leaves. If it's like when the Utica Devils were here Tiny's might see a boost in business with all of the team groupie girls buying drinks for the players but I don't see a lot of potential for economic growth above and beyond that.
An AHL team is not a serious economic driver and that's why I'm against public funding. While it is a private business, it is entertainment. To my mind entertainment should take a back seat to the things that our region really needs.
First of all the support staff is not a transient group. Secondly everyone who comes to the area with the team, players and coaches, are all well paid athletes. People who need housing. People who have disposable income to spend. Secondly the aud will be occupied for 40 additional dates that it would have sat vacant. If sports franchises have such a minimal impact...why does every community scramble to have them?

It's all a mute point anyhow. Enjoy the games this fall.
Truth

Utica, NY

#243 Mar 7, 2013
Utica34 wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all the support staff is not a transient group. Secondly everyone who comes to the area with the team, players and coaches, are all well paid athletes. People who need housing. People who have disposable income to spend. Secondly the aud will be occupied for 40 additional dates that it would have sat vacant. If sports franchises have such a minimal impact...why does every community scramble to have them?
It's all a mute point anyhow. Enjoy the games this fall.
Why is it that you believe this venture should qualify for public funding in any form? That's goes to the core of my opinion.

Not all communities scramble to get sports franchises. Perfect example. Los Angeles has had multiple NFL teams. They do not now nor are they lobbying for one. There is a point of diminished returns for any community that subsidizes sports teams. It comes down to whether the community will get bang for the buck. Given the histry of the AHL in Utica and the history of this franchise in particular, public funding of any kind doesn't seem wise.

I cited an article from NBC Sports. There is a comments section. Here's one from someone who seeems familiar with this teams history and current situation:
" Whatever multi-millionaire hockey team owners do, let them do it on their own dime.

This odious $5.7 million guarantee our mayor and council agreed to can only be called THEFT of our tax dollars.

City councils have no business dabbling in bringing big-name entertainment, nor professional sports.

Abbotsford council and staff wanted to play big-shot, with our money. Their only job should be to tend to running a clean, safe, functional city. Parks, rinks and pools for our locals, Yes!! Our taxes to the owners of the Calgary Flames,– NO!

Leave professionals to tend to big glamour amusements. They have the expertise, and do not wade into money-losing propositions, unlike our foolish leaders in Abbotsford."

This is from someone who has experience with this type of thing. That tells me I am not at all off base in my opinion about publicly financing any part of this effort.

God luck to the Flames in Utica if this turns out to be true but they need to do it on their own dime. Don't pick my pocket or the pockets of any taxpayers.

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