Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72039 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#72483 Apr 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
On the other hand, CT did so well they are consulting out their expertise.
sorry to poke fun at your quote - couldnt resist...
Did you happen to go on the CT site just to see how much $$$ you would pay?

I think for us the silver plan was in the $11-1200/month range. Around what we were paying for COBRA benefits last year, based on what the spouse had at previous employer in PA -good coverage but oy vey!
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72484 Apr 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I take a more liberal view of things. I acknowledge that there are more than one god concepts out there, and have no qualms with that. I also share the visceral reaction and uncomfortableness many Jews and others feel when some fundamentalist Christian hijacks the god talk, and for that reason as well promote multiple god concepts.
ok, fair enough.

Many believers take the position that, though people across the world worship differently, that we area all in fact worshiping and praying to the same god. After all, if one is monotheist, there is only one god. So it kind of makes sense.

To me that seems like a tolerant and open minded approach. And it openly allows for differences. As you know one of my pet peeves is believers stating their belief is the correct one and others are all doing it wrong. This is what my born again brother says all the time. "They're doing it wrong!" And he usually means other Christians.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
True, but the conversation has morphed (which is ok, but I wanted to note this). Originally you posed the question what is the boundary of belief for a Jew (to not get kicked out). And the answer would be, regarding these last posts, is a belief in the "one" of a god concept of some sort. But the god concept itself is rather permeable. All of the subsequent talk about what theism is or isnt, etc etc, is a tangent IMO.(But that said, I still think you are viewing all of this from the wrong vantagepoint, as you are using categories of analysis that are meaningful from the perspective western philosophy but not so meaningful to understanding from the perspective of the religion itself).
I think I asked something to the effect, how little of the scripture and tradition etc can a Jew believe in and still call himself a Jew, in the religious sense? Something like that.

Then I did get into what makes a theist, stating that I thought you were a theist.

I view this subject from my perspective, admittedly not one steeped in religious tradition. But I believe the religions we each grew up with started in roughly the same place, no?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72485 Apr 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you happen to go on the CT site just to see how much $$$ you would pay?
I think for us the silver plan was in the $11-1200/month range. Around what we were paying for COBRA benefits last year, based on what the spouse had at previous employer in PA -good coverage but oy vey!
Havent since the inception and it didnt strike me as a huge amount - but I dont recollect what the deductible is. Right now I am on my spouses plan which has reasonable monthly charge but totally unreasonable deductable. So the devil is always in the details

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72486 Apr 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I think I asked something to the effect, how little of the scripture and tradition etc can a Jew believe in and still call himself a Jew, in the religious sense? Something like that.
Then I did get into what makes a theist, stating that I thought you were a theist.
I view this subject from my perspective, admittedly not one steeped in religious tradition. But I believe the religions we each grew up with started in roughly the same place, no?
I think in the US at least, there are large numbers of Jews who dont believe much about scripture, but follow some of the "commandments" as tradition. They see themselves as Jewish, and I would consider them Jewish. However, without some type of faith component, I doubt their lifestyles (traditions and all) will continue to transmit through future generations.

But then again, there is the example of the Moranos and other crypto-Jews....http://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72487 Apr 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you happen to go on the CT site just to see how much $$$ you would pay?
I think for us the silver plan was in the $11-1200/month range. Around what we were paying for COBRA benefits last year, based on what the spouse had at previous employer in PA -good coverage but oy vey!
Yeah, I got probably similar results to you for Silver - the deductible is slightly lower than what I am paying, but the premiums are considerable higher - over all more expensive
oneworld

Den Helder, Netherlands

#72488 Apr 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
ok, fair enough.
Many believers take the position that, though people across the world worship differently, that we area all in fact worshiping and praying to the same god. After all, if one is monotheist, there is only one god. So it kind of makes sense.
To me that seems like a tolerant and open minded approach. And it openly allows for differences. As you know one of my pet peeves is believers stating their belief is the correct one and others are all doing it wrong. This is what my born again brother says all the time. "They're doing it wrong!" And he usually means other Christians.
<quoted text>
I think I asked something to the effect, how little of the scripture and tradition etc can a Jew believe in and still call himself a Jew, in the religious sense? Something like that.
Then I did get into what makes a theist, stating that I thought you were a theist.
I view this subject from my perspective, admittedly not one steeped in religious tradition. But I believe the religions we each grew up with started in roughly the same place, no?
Just butting in here Former.

It seems christianity they did not start in roughly the same place.

It seems the big part concerning the main concepts employed arose from discussions on the nature of the world, humans and gods presented in a meta-physical form.
The other contributing factor has been antagonism between judaism and the greek world.
Most arguements of this kind came from Alexandria.
A mix of myth and fact ending up in the gospel text.

The eventual form was created in Europe and Turkey itself from ideas about the territory.
Which might explain why the Aramaic version differs first in content and later interpretation given the former closeness and contact.
The religion and content of the bible can be said to have derived from the 11th and 12 the century so after the crusades and from polemics in the 15 and 16th century.(Suddeny all manner of copies of biblical texts and statues were found, myths of f.i. Helena and Constantin invented.)

We find that Europeans tried to literally out-fit various places to reflect their evolved ideas.
Comparable the Harry potter and platform 9 3/4 now having a shield pointing to it for all those fans asking where it was to be found.

Also:The church use of the title dr. of philosophy, in which philosophy is to be understood as ' that which is not real, not found in reality'.'that which relies on imagination and is never confirmed by actual fact.'
oneworld

Den Helder, Netherlands

#72489 Apr 28, 2014
mono-theism does not exist.(see Frioles. I do believe most people will broaden the definition to include all life or all that makes life here possible. The christian god as actually the wooden cross* sits not even right with christians.

Or rather each god might have a tribe and vice-versa.
So to be found any and everywhere.

Overreaching concepts died out with 'mother earth concepts dying out.

Have been reinvented but usually connected to empire building.
Symbols like the 'holy grale standing for eathly and heavenly wealth.

So the question was never to what monotheistic god people ascribe too but to what empire.

* Defined in the discussion that no sotoriology is found for ordinary believers. For them there is only penance (they fall from grace and only have faith, they can alleviate the fall through penance and faith by going to mass. Where mass is the body of christ expressed by what must be an actual wooden cross and reiteration of definitions to that fact. The stories and any depictions are not relevant only the freehanging wooden cross is.
See various synods.
oneworld

Den Helder, Netherlands

#72490 Apr 28, 2014
ahum could use an editor

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72491 Apr 28, 2014
oneworld wrote:
<quoted text>

The eventual form was created in Europe and Turkey itself from ideas about the territory.
Which might explain why the Aramaic version differs first in content and later interpretation given the former closeness and contact.
The religion and content of the bible can be said to have derived from the 11th and 12 the century so after the crusades and from polemics in the 15 and 16th century.
Interestingly enough, the first country to declare Christianity as the state religion was not Rome but Armenia.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72492 Apr 28, 2014
oneworld wrote:
<quoted text>
Just butting in here Former.
It seems christianity they did not start in roughly the same place.
It seems the big part concerning the main concepts employed arose from discussions on the nature of the world, humans and gods presented in a meta-physical form.
The other contributing factor has been antagonism between judaism and the greek world.
Most arguements of this kind came from Alexandria.
A mix of myth and fact ending up in the gospel text.
So what you are saying is that all this philosophy of God stuff actually arose as the dominant theme during the period of Greek philosophy? Thats what I have been saying....
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72494 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Literally, it is "you are rejecting the god that you think I believe in, but I dont think of god that way either" with the implied snark that you got it all wrong, why are you wasting your time on a straw argument?.
I admit its a tortured use of language. But the saying has been around a long time, as long as the atheist critique.
And as I said (in different words), it in itself is a straw man. As I doubt most atheists take that position.

Though as you say, more for fun and snarkiness than for continuing the the conversation..

(I was going to say "moving the conversation forward" but, really! What's the point?:)))
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72495 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Havent since the inception and it didnt strike me as a huge amount - but I dont recollect what the deductible is. Right now I am on my spouses plan which has reasonable monthly charge but totally unreasonable deductable. So the devil is always in the details
Same with me.

Yes, you have to look at the whole package.

Raising the deductible is always the sure way to lower the premium.

Which is why I have high deductibles on my auto and home owners.

It's a form of being partially self-insured.

CT is known to be very expensive for health ins (and I noticed for auto as well compared with PA, not to mention gasoline, income tax, heating oil and don't get me started on the $500 I dropped at the DMV when we moved in - titles, tags, licenses.......)
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72496 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I got probably similar results to you for Silver - the deductible is slightly lower than what I am paying, but the premiums are considerable higher - over all more expensive
Back when I first started working the employer paid 80% to the employee's 20%(Higher for spouses/dependents as I recall.)

Now I think the mix is more like 60/40 - no standard but that seems to be what it runs.

So it's hard to compare employee sponsored with buying it on the open market.
As the boss is still picking up a big chunk of the premiums.

But there's still no doubt in my mind that Obamacare is a good thing. All the other features considered.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72497 Apr 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
And as I said (in different words), it in itself is a straw man. As I doubt most atheists take that position.
Though as you say, more for fun and snarkiness than for continuing the the conversation..
(I was going to say "moving the conversation forward" but, really! What's the point?:)))
I think the most fascinating part of that saying is that it is has been attributed to a Rabbi from a few hundred years ago, i,.e. even back them they were arguing this back and forth

and I do think even you (with all respect) are guilty of it a little bit, so I dont agree its a straw man criticism.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72498 Apr 28, 2014
oneworld wrote:
<quoted text>
Just butting in here Former.
no problem
oneworld wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems christianity they did not start in roughly the same place.
It seems the big part concerning the main concepts employed arose from discussions on the nature of the world, humans and gods presented in a meta-physical form.
The other contributing factor has been antagonism between judaism and the greek world.
Most arguements of this kind came from Alexandria.
A mix of myth and fact ending up in the gospel text.
And what ended up in the Old Testament?(As my people referred to it..)

(The rest of your post is interesting but over my pay grade...thanks for commenting...Frijoles can handle it..)
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72499 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the most fascinating part of that saying is that it is has been attributed to a Rabbi from a few hundred years ago, i,.e. even back them they were arguing this back and forth
and I do think even you (with all respect) are guilty of it a little bit, so I dont agree its a straw man criticism.
But since I spend half my time here (or so it seems) ASKING you just what nature of god you believe in?.......

How can you then turn around and claim that I claim to know what nature of god you believe in??

I see a bit of a hole in your reasoning.

The only thing I claim with which you clearly disagree is that you're a theist. And that to me is simply a matter of nomenclature/semantics.

Labels don't describe your god, only what we call him.....or the study of him.....theology...vs ???
oneworld

Den Helder, Netherlands

#72500 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Interestingly enough, the first country to declare Christianity as the state religion was not Rome but Armenia.
So they claim, but tracking the actual history shows something different.

I have to go, back in a few hours.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72501 Apr 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
But since I spend half my time here (or so it seems) ASKING you just what nature of god you believe in?.......
How can you then turn around and claim that I claim to know what nature of god you believe in??
I see a bit of a hole in your reasoning.
I claim that you think you know the nature of the god that I DISbelieve in.

Another way of articulating this is that we all approach the issue on different wavelengths regarding what god is or is not, but assume what we are rejecting is the exact same thing that the "other" is rejecting.

The extension of that (and where I put your comment above) is that often what some reject, they assume the other accept, and that isnt necessarily the case either.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>The only thing I claim with which you clearly disagree is that you're a theist. And that to me is simply a matter of nomenclature/semantics.
Labels don't describe your god, only what we call him.....or the study of him.....theology...vs ???
Actually I never disavowed theism. rather I have stated over and over that I feel it is a irrelevant framework to understand theology from a Jewish perspective. Because 1) the thought process is alien to the tradition - your framework comes from Greek philosophy not Jewish theology; 2) it involves a static sense of belief while Jewish theology values experience through ritual practice; 3) the real defining sense of Jewish theology is the "mono", not the "theism" part of the term monotheistic - as evidenced by the Shema prayer; and 4) in the strictest of theological inspection, dominant traditional Jewish paradigms that flirt into nondualism are not really incompatible with the theist/atheist binary description at all but yet still account for a theistic outlook in human situations such as prayer.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72502 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I claim that you think you know the nature of the god that I DISbelieve in.
Another way of articulating this is that we all approach the issue on different wavelengths regarding what god is or is not, but assume what we are rejecting is the exact same thing that the "other" is rejecting.
The extension of that (and where I put your comment above) is that often what some reject, they assume the other accept, and that isnt necessarily the case either.
<quoted text>
This is the flip side of what I already addressed. Recall the associative and commutative principles from math class?

It seems you're the one making a lot of assumptions about what my assumptions are.(We could go on all day like this...)

The only god I'm aware of that you reject (and I wouldn't call this an assumption as you've stated this), is the anthropomorphic old man up in the sky.

Not sure what else you could be referring to.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually I never disavowed theism. rather I have stated over and over that I feel it is a irrelevant framework to understand theology from a Jewish perspective. Because 1) the thought process is alien to the tradition - your framework comes from Greek philosophy not Jewish theology; 2) it involves a static sense of belief while Jewish theology values experience through ritual practice; 3) the real defining sense of Jewish theology is the "mono", not the "theism" part of the term monotheistic - as evidenced by the Shema prayer; and 4) in the strictest of theological inspection, dominant traditional Jewish paradigms that flirt into nondualism are not really incompatible with the theist/atheist binary description at all but yet still account for a theistic outlook in human situations such as prayer.
Ok, we'll just leave it as you don't accept the label theist.

The rest is a little too much in the weeds for me.
oneworld

Den Helder, Netherlands

#72503 Apr 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
So what you are saying is that all this philosophy of God stuff actually arose as the dominant theme during the period of Greek philosophy? Thats what I have been saying....
In a nutshell, however intentionally mis-interpreted.
And that could have happened at any time.
Philosophers would not recognize their own statements.

I do not suscribe to the notion of judeo-christianity as origin.
But an antagonistic theme being used by a group of middleman to exempt them from paying taxes.

By now i'm at neo-paganism and the 6th-7th century push this gave to formulating concepts.

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