Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72037 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66970 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I think both.
There are some people that have inherent prejudices, and use religion as an excuse to justify them.(Bad people doing bad things with or without religion)
But then there is a subset of people who are genuinely good and initially devoid of such prejudices, but are compelled to support such prejudices because they are convinced by their religion that it's the right thing to do (Good people doing bad things because of religion).
Mob psychology. Like the Nazis.(Godwin's law)

Was each and every Nazi an inherently bad and evil person? hard to believe

So not really exclusive to religion. Think "Lord of the Flies"

But sure I could see it happening that way.

Esp if you think participation will bring eternal salvation.
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, but our position is verifiably supported by the Constitution. Our position is inherently neutral. Worship whatever you want, just leave the government out of it. Of course, to Fox viewers, this translates to xtian persecution.
Of course I agree. But why does our money say "In god we trust?'

I wouldn't say that violates the first amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I personally think their days are numbered. The younger generations are increasingly less religious, and most polls are reflecting this shift. Time will tell.
I'm good with that!
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66971 Feb 6, 2014
HughBe wrote:
former res---We give money to a few charities.How do you "give back?"
HughBe--- Friend, I never "give back" much to your disappointment.
Seriously Huggy, you never do anything for anybody? No volunteerism? No charities?
Not even within one your parishes? Would you at least an old lady across the street? a young boy perhaps?
HughBe wrote:
Former---Why gender matter? Does it to you?
HughBe--- YES. It matters because women are more in need of help, speaking physically.
I have a wife and she gets all the help she needs.
HughBe wrote:
Former---They are: 2 widows and one elderly couple.
HughBe--- I speak from memory only, previously did you say 3 persons?
I said three neighbors, as in 3 houses.

Good memory.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66972 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Just answer the darn question and STOP trying to squirm out of it. What beliefs do you not agree with?
<quoted text>
Question remains IRRELEVANT but I shall answer you and say that I agree with the teachings that are found in the scriptures. When I say agree I mean that I deem them as a must.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66973 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
exactly my point.
Thats why when you end your post with "much love, mon" we know enough to ignore that.
Much love, dear.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66974 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Seriously Huggy, you never do anything for anybody? No volunteerism? No charities?
Not even within one your parishes? Would you at least an old lady across the street? a young boy perhaps?
<quoted text>
I have a wife and she gets all the help she needs.
<quoted text>
I said three neighbors, as in 3 houses.
Good memory.
HughBe--- Friend, I never "give back" much to your disappointment.

Former---Seriously Huggy, you never do anything for anybody? No volunteerism? No charities?

HughBe---- Very often I think of giving some women a helping hand. In terms of charity I do give to the less fortunate.

Former--- Would you at least an old lady across the street? a young boy perhaps?

HughBe--- Done that for question 1 and also old men but I am hardly on foot for many a decades. In terms of young boys, many times I have stopped my vehicle and allowed both boys and girls to cross the street.

Former---Why gender matter? Does it to you?

HughBe--- YES. It matters because women are more in need of help, speaking physically.

Former---I have a wife and she gets all the help she needs.

HughBe--- Your wife is flattering you. Lovely woman. If there is no objection, what is your wife's name or pet name?

Former--- Good memory

HughBe--- Flattery.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66975 Feb 6, 2014
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Question remains IRRELEVANT but I shall answer you and say that I agree with the teachings that are found in the scriptures. When I say agree I mean that I deem them as a must.
a total non answer.

Here is the article again. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-reli...

You said you shared most of their beliefs

What beliefs dont you share? use the article as frame of reference

Its a fair question since you brought it up. Plus thats what we do here. We discuss our personal views about religion.

And SHOCKINGLY - the article addresses the theme of the forum!!!!!!!!
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66976 Feb 6, 2014
Don't cry, I shall be back later. Things to do.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66977 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
Of course I agree. But why does our money say "In god we trust?'
I wouldn't say that violates the first amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust

I would argue that it does violate the first amendment, given the way that the courts have traditionally interpreted it. What if the money said "In Allah we trust" or "In Ganesha we trust" or "In Satan we Trust"? Would you still argue that the government was being neutral and not violating the 1st amendment?

I would rather see "E pluribus unum" reinstated as the official US motto. It speaks more to who we are as a country, and excludes no one.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66978 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
There is no question that Catholicism has taken a hit due to the scandals (OTOH that article was written before the new pope, who is a man of the people)
The polls that mention the drop in religiosity are not focused on specific denominations (i.e. Catholicism). It is referring to all organized religions. The article I linked to just happened to be focused on Irish Catholics.
Frijoles wrote:
but I dont know how they measure "religiosity" other than self replies to surveys.
Many people say "I am NOT religious but I AM spiritual" - the implication being that is that they are not affiliated with ORGANIZED religion.
That is correct, and that is a highly debated topic (i.e. are the polls correctly worded and are they accounting for what you just mentioned). I would tend to agree that many people who answer the question as No are referring to organized religion. However, speaking strictly from the perspective of what groups hold the most sway (i.e. able to rally the voters), it would be organized religion. Getting a group of "spiritual" people to agree with you would be more like herding cats. Therefore, I would argue that it's the organized religiosity dropping that is most significant, not necessarily that people are less spiritual.
Frijoles wrote:
Also, these things come and go according to age. Many people revisit their affiliations when they get older (and start worrying about the end, perhaps) and when they have kids.
That's why I hedged my response in my original post with "only time will tell".
Frijoles wrote:
Generally speaking, I think as long as their is a tribal impulse in society, there will be room for organized religions. I dont see the world as being any more unified as we enter the future, despite the interconnections of the technology.
Agree. It's human nature. And we'll always be fighting over something. If not religion, then politics. If not politics, then something else.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66979 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Not that I enjoy speaking for Hughbe, but in his value system, I think your label of "xtianity" is what he is referring to as disrespectful.
Well then HughBe should learn that

"X" comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word &#935;&#961;&#953; &#963;&#964;&#972; &#962; which comes into English as "Christ". There is a common misconception that the word Xmas stems from a secular attempt to remove the religious tradition from Christmas[3] by taking the "Christ" out of "Christmas", but its use dates back to the 16th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66980 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Just a general reference. I think you have commented on Mormon's magic underwear and the like before.
I do mean heart. I am referring to quality of intention (as well as content).
"the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature"

A metaphor.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66981 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no way prove what the purpose of life is. Its a non scientific question. Or perhaps you believe you know THE meaning of art? I think an artist would have a problem with your approach as well.
But I never said there was a single purpose to life - thus nothing needs to be proven.

I did say purpose is subjective and individual. You make your own purpose in life (either consciously or subconsciously).

Science can be used as a tool to help us understand the process of how and why someone chooses a specific purpose for their life.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66982 Feb 6, 2014
HughBe wrote:
COR---Tell me Hugh, what part of my response was emotional,disrespectful and HATEFUL?
HughBe--- You are NOT a bloody fool and YOU know that your "xtianity" is DISRESPECTFUL etc.
Lesson 1-- no Christian would refer to the religion in that way.
Do you care to hazard a guess as to why Christians would not speak the way that you did? Give it a try.
COR---Is it not a fact that multiple sects of xtianity exist?
HughBe--- Lesson 2---It seems that there is a genuine need for you to attend etiquette classes among other things.
COR---Seems to me you are projecting your emotions, disrespect and HATE onto other posters when you really should focus on why those attributes apply more to you than most anyone else on this forum.
HughBe--- I want YOU to speak to any real atheists or agnostic and NOT a pretender like you and describe Christianity in the way that you did and see his or her response. Do the same to ANY Christian that you know or encounter in your area and let me know the response.
Wake-up, COR.
Finally, one's speech betrays them.
What a bizarre rant. Is it that time of the month for you?

Tell me, Hugh, what is a Labarum. Which letters does it consist of? What was it used for?

Go do some homework and get back to me you silly xtian.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66983 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
But I never said there was a single purpose to life - thus nothing needs to be proven.
agreed, of course
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>I did say purpose is subjective and individual. You make your own purpose in life (either consciously or subconsciously)..
Or, using an alternative frame of reference, you choose what the purpose of your own life is from a variety of choices that may or may not originate from within yourself.(No way to prove exactly where those choices (or perhaps, memes,) come from)
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>Science can be used as a tool to help us understand the process of how and why someone chooses a specific purpose for their life.


Maybe. Maybe not. Where do thoughts come from? Even better, where is the "self" located?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66984 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
What a bizarre rant. Is it that time of the month for you?
Tell me, Hugh, what is a Labarum. Which letters does it consist of? What was it used for?
Go do some homework and get back to me you silly xtian.
Are you following the exchange HUggy and I are (not) having regarding the Christian Hebrews?

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-reli...

For Some Believers Trying To Connect With Jesus, the Answer Is To Live Like a Jew

- his first response was that he shared most of their beliefs. Then, when I tried to pin him down to find out what he disagreed with, he refused to answer, and called the question irrelevant.

Note- these are Christians who are trying to behave like the Jews did in the time of Jesus, with the additional belief in Jesus as the messiah. They are learning Hebrew and adopting many behaviors such as tallis, earlocks, head covering, holidays, etc etc. But unlike Messianic Christians, they are not selling themselves as "Jews", though they are strong supporters of Jews and of Israel. They are purposely creating their own niche.

I thought it might be interesting to get Hughbes take on it. Maybe give him a more respectful path.

But his first reaction was puzzling. How could he partially embrace them when he is on here dissing Jewish customs all the time?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66985 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no way prove what the purpose of life is. Its a non scientific question. Or perhaps you believe you know THE meaning of art? I think an artist would have a problem with your approach as well.
To carry this idea of the artist a bit further...

An artist creates the meaning (purpose) in his art. An observer in the art might appreciate a piece, but for a different reason than the artist. To the observer, the art holds a different meaning (purpose).

Thus, purpose and meaning are subjective and individual. Science is not out to prove or disprove it, but merely to understand the motivations behind it.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66986 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
Maybe. Maybe not. Where do thoughts come from? Even better, where is the "self" located?
I'm sure you can predict my answer to this....the brain.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66987 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you following the exchange HUggy and I are (not) having regarding the Christian Hebrews?
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-reli...
For Some Believers Trying To Connect With Jesus, the Answer Is To Live Like a Jew
- his first response was that he shared most of their beliefs. Then, when I tried to pin him down to find out what he disagreed with, he refused to answer, and called the question irrelevant.
Note- these are Christians who are trying to behave like the Jews did in the time of Jesus, with the additional belief in Jesus as the messiah. They are learning Hebrew and adopting many behaviors such as tallis, earlocks, head covering, holidays, etc etc. But unlike Messianic Christians, they are not selling themselves as "Jews", though they are strong supporters of Jews and of Israel. They are purposely creating their own niche.
I thought it might be interesting to get Hughbes take on it. Maybe give him a more respectful path.
But his first reaction was puzzling. How could he partially embrace them when he is on here dissing Jewish customs all the time?
What distinguishes them from the Messianics? Is it the fact that they don't consider themselves Jews?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66988 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
What distinguishes them from the Messianics? Is it the fact that they don't consider themselves Jews?
That apparently they dont advertise themselves as Jews. You know what you are getting when you encounter them. They are no threat to Jews.

Also, it might be argued that they are a bit more serious with their study of Hebrew and adoption of Jewish customs - though some Messianics in their own defense might argue otherwise.(Its been my experience that Messianics only adopt some very superficial customs).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66989 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
To carry this idea of the artist a bit further...
An artist creates the meaning (purpose) in his art. An observer in the art might appreciate a piece, but for a different reason than the artist. To the observer, the art holds a different meaning (purpose).
Thus, purpose and meaning are subjective and individual. Science is not out to prove or disprove it, but merely to understand the motivations behind it.
Agree. So you see where I am going on this. If someone asked you what the meaning of a painting was, you would answer that it is subjective. You couldnt go to science to answer that question directly. Religion works the same way. Offers meanings that are unprovable to certain questions that are not really relevant to the scientific enterprise.

Bringing us back to your musings (if I got this right) of whether it is possible to distill the essence of religion and hand it over 100% to secular (or scientific) society.

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