Church of the First Born.........cult

Church of the First Born.........cult

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Nicole

Oklahoma City, OK

#3 Aug 3, 2007
UHH...for everyone's information, there is a thing called 'faith healing' in which the memembers rely on the power of GOD to heal them...not doctors. To the congregation it participating in medical practice is a sign of a lack of faith in God.
Jesus had the ability to heal people...through God we recive gift such as 'healing' through prayer and laying on the hands. Everyone is blessed with a gift whether is be 'healing' or 'prophecy.'
Is it SO wrong to believe that God will take care of all your needs without the assistance of of those who have been trained to take care of your needs.
For all you CHRISTAINS who believe in turning the other cheek the fellow christians, maybe you need to stop and look at your own walk with God...my guess is that you are not nearly as close you think you are...how DARE you critize what you don't even know...anything about. You assume and you GUESS. You said it yourself, you know little about it. DANGEROUS religion!?! You know NOTHING! Go to the church and see for yourself how peaceful, open and humble the members are. OR BETTER YET<< WHY DON"T YOU QUITE JUDGING AND WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF.
Anti Cult

AOL

#4 Aug 3, 2007
Nicole wrote:
UHH...for everyone's information, there is a thing called 'faith healing' in which the memembers rely on the power of GOD to heal them...not doctors. To the congregation it participating in medical practice is a sign of a lack of faith in God.
Jesus had the ability to heal people...through God we recive gift such as 'healing' through prayer and laying on the hands. Everyone is blessed with a gift whether is be 'healing' or 'prophecy.'
Is it SO wrong to believe that God will take care of all your needs without the assistance of of those who have been trained to take care of your needs.
For all you CHRISTAINS who believe in turning the other cheek the fellow christians, maybe you need to stop and look at your own walk with God...my guess is that you are not nearly as close you think you are...how DARE you critize what you don't even know...anything about. You assume and you GUESS. You said it yourself, you know little about it. DANGEROUS religion!?! You know NOTHING! Go to the church and see for yourself how peaceful, open and humble the members are. OR BETTER YET<< WHY DON"T YOU QUITE JUDGING AND WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF.
Perhaps you need to take your rant and explain to Kathy's family and all those who have suffered because of the ignorance and misapplication of the scriptures this so called church is operating under.

Yes, Jesus gave the gift of healing and there are those who possess this gift to lay hands on the sick, but unfortunately NOT ALL have the ability to RECEIVE HEALING BY FATIH,(even though they may think they do).

Therein lies the problem;

There is simple believing "faith" and then there is "overcoming faith" Vast distinction between the two.

Also, something is amiss when innocent babies die in this so called church. Who's fault is that? Jesus, the baby, or the so called "healer"? Since the baby doesn't have the ability,(by reason of age), to have faith for healing.

Peaceful, open, humble members? And yet people die, and are allowed to lay there and bleed to death because a "church member", a "church midwife" wouldn't call a doctor.

Where was all this "gift" of healing when Kathy was bleeding to death? So, tell me, Nicole, why did Kathy die, if this "church" is so gifted in healing?

And why have so many others died? I suggest you cease your unrighteous indignation and start asking yourself these questions.
Nicole

Blanchard, OK

#6 Aug 9, 2007
FIRST OFF- how dare you say that I 'cease my unrighteous indignation'....how on Earth do you know just how righteous I am?
I happen to know first hand what these people go thru, how they think and how they suffer when they lose a loved one. I understand the reasoning behind the actions. I AM A MEMBER OF THIS CHURCH. I have every right to cast my opinion...but you have not right to judge what you do not TRULY understand. Nor will you ever open your mind to try too. You sit there with your own beliefs and cast them upon others...thinking that everyone should believe just like you do.
There is not such thing as 'overcoming faith.' I can interpret that two ways. You either mean overcoming in a sense that you can 'defeat' it, or you mean overcoming with in your body.
The No.1 intrepretation cannot be so because your over come trials and troubles THROUGH faith. No.2 cannot be because the Holy Spirit overcomes your body when you have the gift of healing...not faith. Please elborate if this is not correct.
The definition of Faith is Hebrews 11:1
"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen..." MEANING they believe that God will take care of problems, without medical attention. Faith NOT a healing power, it a tool to recieve healing.
The prayer of faith is found in James 5:14-15
"Is any sick among you, let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him annoint him with oil in the name of the Lord and the pray of faith shay save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up..." The church believes whole heartdly in this scripture. They take it and put it to everyday life...not just once and awhile. This is what Kathy died for, her belief that God would heal her. No one held her down, it was a decision she made. I can not tell you why God chose not to heal her.
1st Corinthians 12:9, This is the gift of Faith and the gift of healing which still functions in God's church today.
"To another faith by the same spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit." What you failed to understand is that the Church of the First Born members do not unmercifully let their loved ones die, but give everything completely and totally to God's will. Having a family member and other brethren in our beloved church die undersame circumstances we know first hand why these brethren of ours allowed God to work His will the way He seen best.
Do not imply these Church Members cruely refuse medical help but totally rely on the abilities of God, even unto death.
Also- there is no man that is a healer. GOD heals. There is no such thing as a 'healer.' It is the ability to heal that God gives you. HE is the healer.
Innocent babies died when Herod was searching for Jesus...innocent babies die everyday.
As far as 'so called church' would you be willing to give your life for your beliefs?...
Anti Cult

AOL

#8 Aug 9, 2007
Lessons in becoming an OVERCOMER AND HAVING OVERCOMING FAITH.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:10-12 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:16-18 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:25-27 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:4-6 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:11-13 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:20-22 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 11:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 11 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 13 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 17:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 17 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 21 (Whole Chapter)
confused

Chickasha, OK

#9 Aug 10, 2007
Anti-cult,I'm with you. I have dealt with these Church of the Firstborn so-called christians first hand. I have not seen any fruit to identify their salvation by. They do not pay taxes, lie under oath and make up the rules as they go. They are so concerned with the length of a woman's hair and the absence of medical care and televisions that they are missing the point of christianity.
Mark

Inola, OK

#10 Aug 19, 2007
I am a member of this church, and have been for over 3 years. The church does not look down on any member for going to the doctor, it is your choice. I believe if you have enough faith to truly believe that god will heal you, then that is great, if you dont you should go to the dr.I truly believe that if kathy would have asked for a doctor,she would have recieved one,bot if her husband refused her a doctor, shame on him. There are very good people in this church and it is not a cult. Anyone is invited to attend services and in order to be deemed a cult, you must be forced to live a certain way. we are not. No one tells me how to live. I only live according to the way I feel is pleasing to god, not man. By the way, I pay taxes.
confused

Chickasha, OK

#11 Aug 20, 2007
Mark,
While I am sure that your situation might be different, my husband's ex-wife is a member of this church and has caused my stepson and our family a tremendous amount of grief. The first time he watched television at our house he cried and put his hands over his ears and stated "Jesus doesn't like TV's." He has also not been aloud to wear shorts while in his mother's care. She and her family do not pay taxes and do not have social security numbers. My husband grew up in this religion and his family has turned their backs on him because he does not choose to be a member of this church. I am only speaking from the horrible experience I have had with this religion. I apologize for generalizing.
Mark

Inola, OK

#12 Aug 20, 2007
My wife and I actually go to the cushing church. We have a tv and a social security card. I was raised in the holliness movement and they are alot harder and way more strict. There are some hard line church of the first born members out there and my wife does not believe in going to the doctor. I believe that if you have the faith to trust god to heal you then great, if you dont then you better get to the dr. My family does not attend this church, but no one will ever tel me I cant have anything to do with my family. I'm apologize for your experience, but believe me not all members are like that. Plus there is about 3 different church of the first borns, of which neither associate with the other because of differences in belief. Onc again, my apologies. Mark
confused

Chickasha, OK

#13 Aug 21, 2007
Thank you, Mark. I apologize for generalizing. I thought all believed this way.
Mark

Tulsa, OK

#14 Aug 21, 2007
I found out who you were talking about, and these people are way out there. We dont agree with there beliefs at all.
Never Forget

AOL

#15 Apr 3, 2008
A very short list of the cases that have been taken to court because of parents who allowed their babies or little children to suffer and die when their "faith healing" doctrine felt flat.

Child abuse, and murder are against the law. Man's law, but most of all, GOD'S.

Ignorance of His Word is no excuse, saying, "Well, but this is what my "church" teaches"...without taking into account the whole counsel of God.

You will be held accountable in man's court and at the Judgment seat of Christ. This is said in love, not hate, but it is a strong warning.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/g03.html

Jesus himself said this in the Gospel of Matthew;
( people can take it how they want, but I am suggesting that people had better be VERY careful how they treat little children).

And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

See that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 18:9-10

Is it not "despising" disregarding, or neglecting, the needs, feelings, suffering, AND LIVES of innocent children who can't make these decisions for themselves, when they are TOTALLY DEPENDENT on their parents to make loving,informed and godly choices for them?
fred buck

Clifton, TX

#16 Apr 14, 2008
Paying taxes, paying doctors, shorts, TV, RN's, social workers, they have a long list of things that they don't like. You know I would much rather hear what a person believes in than what they don't. Whats evil next: pockets, microscopes, Tv guide, little league.
Never Forget

AOL

#17 Apr 15, 2008
fred buck wrote:
Paying taxes, paying doctors, shorts, TV, RN's, social workers, they have a long list of things that they don't like. You know I would much rather hear what a person believes in than what they don't. Whats evil next: pockets, microscopes, Tv guide, little league.
I agree Fred. This sort of church is not a true representation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything but.

I've noticed they're big on outward changes...doctrines of clothes, lot's of picayune do's and don't, because that pleases the ego, but they don't get down to the weightier matters of taking up their cross, denying self, and making changes on the inside,where it counts.

This is the problem with "churches" in general, who may not be this extreme, but they still follow man made doctrines and traditions of men instead of what the LORD actually commanded of them.

What "church" is...and what it isn't.
http://www.meatindueseason.net/newbold/or/har...
shelly

Cushing, OK

#18 Aug 28, 2008
She knew exactly what she was doing. Religion is a personel choice. We should not be put down for our belifs, but God said we would be a persecuted people. We are reaching for something beyond life on earth. We are believing in God to obtain eternal like, which is what she did.
Nicole wrote:
FIRST OFF- how dare you say that I 'cease my unrighteous indignation'....how on Earth do you know just how righteous I am?
I happen to know first hand what these people go thru, how they think and how they suffer when they lose a loved one. I understand the reasoning behind the actions. I AM A MEMBER OF THIS CHURCH. I have every right to cast my opinion...but you have not right to judge what you do not TRULY understand. Nor will you ever open your mind to try too. You sit there with your own beliefs and cast them upon others...thinking that everyone should believe just like you do.
There is not such thing as 'overcoming faith.' I can interpret that two ways. You either mean overcoming in a sense that you can 'defeat' it, or you mean overcoming with in your body.
The No.1 intrepretation cannot be so because your over come trials and troubles THROUGH faith. No.2 cannot be because the Holy Spirit overcomes your body when you have the gift of healing...not faith. Please elborate if this is not correct.
The definition of Faith is Hebrews 11:1
"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen..." MEANING they believe that God will take care of problems, without medical attention. Faith NOT a healing power, it a tool to recieve healing.
The prayer of faith is found in James 5:14-15
"Is any sick among you, let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him annoint him with oil in the name of the Lord and the pray of faith shay save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up..." The church believes whole heartdly in this scripture. They take it and put it to everyday life...not just once and awhile. This is what Kathy died for, her belief that God would heal her. No one held her down, it was a decision she made. I can not tell you why God chose not to heal her.
1st Corinthians 12:9, This is the gift of Faith and the gift of healing which still functions in God's church today.
"To another faith by the same spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit." What you failed to understand is that the Church of the First Born members do not unmercifully let their loved ones die, but give everything completely and totally to God's will. Having a family member and other brethren in our beloved church die undersame circumstances we know first hand why these brethren of ours allowed God to work His will the way He seen best.
Do not imply these Church Members cruely refuse medical help but totally rely on the abilities of God, even unto death.
Also- there is no man that is a healer. GOD heals. There is no such thing as a 'healer.' It is the ability to heal that God gives you. HE is the healer.
Innocent babies died when Herod was searching for Jesus...innocent babies die everyday.
As far as 'so called church' would you be willing to give your life for your beliefs?...
Church of First Morons

AOL

#19 Sep 15, 2008
No, she didn't. She was coerced by her ignorant husband, and allowed to bleed to death by the hillbilly "midwife" who stood there and let it happen. You call this "godly"? You are as guilty as they are for such ignorance of the scriptures.
This stuff happens all the time in your so called church!These idiots are without excuse.
Death raises church-state questions anew
Denver Post/March 15, 1999
By Nancy Lofholm
GRAND JUNCTION - As Warren Trevette Glory lay dying, Marvin Peterson anointed the 18-day-old baby with olive oil, laid his big trucker's hands gently on his tiny body and bowed his head, praying to God to heal Warren.
The earnest prayers Peterson said over the dying baby - his grandson - were the same that three generations of General Assembly Church of the First Born elders have spoken over the sick and dying in lieu of giving them medical care. First Born members believe only God can heal and only when He chooses.
So when Warren opened his eyes and looked directly into Peterson's, squeezed Peterson's finger and drew his last breath, Peterson said, his faith in God's healing power didn't waver. He said God can see into the future and he may have seen Warren as a drug addict or someone with an awful disease or disabled and decided to take him before he had to suffer.
Warren Glory's death is not an isolated case. There have been hundreds of child deaths across the country in the past 20 years among the dozens of religious sects that don't believe in medical intervention. They fall into a sensitive and confusing area of law that pits religious freedom against child welfare - a conflict that believers like Peterson can't fathom."

“Spirit Warrior”

Since: Oct 08

Indian Hill Lake

#20 Jan 8, 2009
Most people coming out of these "churches" need help and counseling. There is an element of mind control, even though most would deny it, even while under the control of it.

http://www.churchabuse.com/
jomama

Clarksville, TN

#21 Jan 12, 2009
if you guys think that even one second of this kind of faith is right then your just as bad as all the other cults.........Jim Jones anyone????
OH MY

Tulsa, OK

#22 Jan 14, 2009
I stumbled across this thread and starting reading the responses. I am disheartened by some things I've read. My opinion is that everyone that denies a child medical care for any reason, including "religion", should be held accountable for that child's death. A child does not have a "choice" because of age. No one knows for a fact if that child will grow up with those same beliefs and that child's rights are taken from them and violated when another person refuses medical treatment based on "religous belief". And I agree it is child abuse and murder when this happens and they should be held accountable in a court of law and face the consequences. I also do not believe that God approves of such things. How truely sad for these children.
I even think the Travolta's should be held accountable for their sons death.
Never Forget wrote:
A very short list of the cases that have been taken to court because of parents who allowed their babies or little children to suffer and die when their "faith healing" doctrine felt flat.
Child abuse, and murder are against the law. Man's law, but most of all, GOD'S.
Ignorance of His Word is no excuse, saying, "Well, but this is what my "church" teaches"...without taking into account the whole counsel of God.
You will be held accountable in man's court and at the Judgment seat of Christ. This is said in love, not hate, but it is a strong warning.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/g03.html
Jesus himself said this in the Gospel of Matthew;
( people can take it how they want, but I am suggesting that people had better be VERY careful how they treat little children).
And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.
See that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 18:9-10
Is it not "despising" disregarding, or neglecting, the needs, feelings, suffering, AND LIVES of innocent children who can't make these decisions for themselves, when they are TOTALLY DEPENDENT on their parents to make loving,informed and godly choices for them?
Shekanahh

Deep River, IA

#23 Jan 14, 2009
I don't know anything about the Travoltas or what they did or didn't do for their child. They were Scientologists weren't they?

Anyway, yes, parents are accountable to God and the Law in my opinion, insofar as the cases being discussed on this thread.

It is evil to withhold simple medical treatment that could save a child's life or ease their suffering based on erroneous religious "doctrine".

You see, what they call "faith" is actually a man made "doctrine" of these churches, that God never set up OR CONDONED! If he had, people wouldn't be dying in these cults the way they have.

They claim if someone dies, it was God's will. Oh really? Cathy lay there bleeding to death when all the evil "midwife" had to do was pick up a phone and call an ambulance.

I rest my case, and don't let someone come along and say that Cathy, "knew exactly what she was doing". No, she didn't, but they did and they killed her, plain and simple and the whole bunch should be rounded up and dismantled.

Unfortunately, THAT is against the law, not murder Church of the First Born style.
whosays

Vian, OK

#24 Jan 26, 2009
I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread or not. But... I have to say something.
I was raised in a Free Holiness Church in Paden. They are very good and righteous people. I still attend there from time to time, and my children go there with my grandmother. They believe in faith healings. And so do I. They believe in having the elders in the church pray over the sick, and annoit them with oil. They shout with the holy ghost, and speak in tongues. You will not find a more faithful believer in Christ and his power than my pastor. However, even he goes to the doctor.
I totally believe that God and his son can heal. The first thing I do when my children are ill, or someone I know and care about, is pray. When I was told that I would deliver my son two months early and the doctors didn't know whether or not he would live, the first thing I did was get out of my hospital bed, drop to my knees and pray for my son, and that the Lord's will would be done. I felt an overwhelming peace come over me, and in my heart, I knew my son was going to be okay. And thankfully, my faith was founded.
What I did not do, was get out of the hospital bed, go home, and deliver the child myself. Because, along with the gift of faith, God gave us common sense. He gave the doctors and nurse's the ability to go to medical school and learn to save lives. Another one of His many gifts to us. I stayed there, let the doctors use their gifts to heal my son, praised them for their diligence, and thanked my savior for allowing them to be in the right place at the right time to save my son, and myself from certain death. I don't think this lessened my faith in God at all, it strengthened it.
It is very easy to blame this on the church and their teachings. I for one, totally disagree with it, but we live in a nation where we are free to choose our faith, and how we choose to worship our God. Do I think this woman knew what she was doing? Yes, absolutely. Do I think she was misguided? For sure. The thing about it is, she was a mother to four children with one fighting to be born. She chose to die, instead of seeking help and saving herself, with God's assistance. God helps those who help themselves. Faith is a wonderful thing to have, especially in this day and age, but commen sense goes along with it. I'm very sorry this lady left her children behind, and who is to say, maybe the doctors couldnt have saved her. It is possible, even in this day of medical miracles. And maybe, just maybe, she is in heaven now, reaping her rewards. I just think she should have tried a little harder.

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