Lawyers called in matters of life and death

Nov 6, 2008 | Posted by: The Old Lady | Full story: www.catholic.org

It would seem an easy enough decision, on the surface: whether to allow a Bergen County, N.J., infant in desperate need of a blood transfusion to get one.

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Jace

Burke, VA

#1 Nov 6, 2008
"My feeling was that they were relieved," Pietro says of the parents. "I just said,'Look, if you don't consent to this, your child will die. She will never get to choose whether or not she even wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.'"

##########

I have heard this statement made so many times over the years when a jw parent is facing life and death for their child

they are actually glad that SOMEONE ELSE made the decision to save their child SINCE they could not AND REMAIN a jw

is that not sad?
little lamb

Australia

#2 Nov 6, 2008
well what do you expect ; they are taught not to think for themselves, so when an important decision needs to be made they lack the strength of 'will' that only God can supply when under stress. And ofcourse the org is waiting on the sidelines like vultures to come in and pick these people to pieces because this is one command they do believe in.

“Virtus in Arduo”

Since: Feb 08

Paradise

#3 Nov 6, 2008
Jace wrote:
"My feeling was that they were relieved," Pietro says of the parents. "I just said,'Look, if you don't consent to this, your child will die. She will never get to choose whether or not she even wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.'"
##########
I have heard this statement made so many times over the years when a jw parent is facing life and death for their child
they are actually glad that SOMEONE ELSE made the decision to save their child SINCE they could not AND REMAIN a jw
is that not sad?
I have a Swedish proram taped that deals with this in a way.
The husband needs a blood transfusion according to the DR's in the hospital where he is dying from lukemia.
The wife and he are JW's and so they don't want it. The husband slips into a coma and the wife is bombarded at that point to sign something allowing the transfusion. It goes on and on about how the nurses and DR all think she is killing her husband by not allowing it. She finally gives in and lets them. It ends with him waking up and telling her how happy he is that she chose to allow it so he wouldn'/t die. He wanted to watch the kids grow up.
The last scene shows them debating now whether they will remain JW's.
From a show called OP.
I used to argue with the idea that never would a real JW ever do what they did.
I no longer think that way. It isn't talked about, but JW's do indeed do just that. Not often, but sometimes love wins.
And once a WTS line is crossed, it opens eyes as to what hold they really have over people and thier lives.

Since: Feb 07

RI

#4 Nov 6, 2008
This was similar to what happened when my Dad needed a transfusion when he developed that intestinal fissure while on blood thinners.

I was there to support my Mom in whatever she decided, and I could see the anguish on her face. She knew full well that Dad would die without the transfusion and that he would live if he received it.

The doctor was there, urging her to consent to the transfusion, but he wasn't trying to force her decision.

When Dad came out of his coma briefly and told the doctor he would accept the transfusion, I could see the relief just wash over her face. What a horrible situation to be in...knowing your husband WILL die unless you authorize something that you have been taught would anger Jehovah.

My Dad made the final decision for himself, and Mom was relieved that she would not have to lose him.

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#5 Nov 6, 2008
RedhorseWoman wrote:
This was similar to what happened when my Dad needed a transfusion when he developed that intestinal fissure while on blood thinners.
I was there to support my Mom in whatever she decided, and I could see the anguish on her face. She knew full well that Dad would die without the transfusion and that he would live if he received it.
The doctor was there, urging her to consent to the transfusion, but he wasn't trying to force her decision.
When Dad came out of his coma briefly and told the doctor he would accept the transfusion, I could see the relief just wash over her face. What a horrible situation to be in...knowing your husband WILL die unless you authorize something that you have been taught would anger Jehovah.
My Dad made the final decision for himself, and Mom was relieved that she would not have to lose him.
OMG, that must have been so stressful to wittness [no pun intended]
did you grow up as a JW?
if not, can you reject JW and still be accepted by your family?

An old friend has recently become a JW and I am trying to learn about it. No tricks here.

Since: Feb 07

RI

#6 Nov 7, 2008
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG, that must have been so stressful to wittness [no pun intended]
did you grow up as a JW?
if not, can you reject JW and still be accepted by your family?
An old friend has recently become a JW and I am trying to learn about it. No tricks here.
Stressful isn't quite the word for it. I saw my father lying on that bed looking, for all intents and purposes, like a living corpse. His skin was dead white and his lips were blue due to lack of blood. His blood would not clot, and he was, simply put, bleeding out while we stood there.

I was brought up as a JW, but I had become inactive at that point in time. Since I was neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated, there was no shunning that was specifically imposed upon me.

My mother was disappointed that I was no longer active, but we did maintain a relationship. My other relatives, however, who are still JWs, have cut me off and will not communicate with me.

Needless to say, I hope your friends wakes up and sees what a truly dangerous, deceptive, and distructive group the JWs are.
daftasabrush

Overland Park, KS

#7 Nov 7, 2008
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG, that must have been so stressful to wittness [no pun intended]
did you grow up as a JW?
if not, can you reject JW and still be accepted by your family?
An old friend has recently become a JW and I am trying to learn about it. No tricks here.
good, be careful about taking everything said here at face value. Redhorsewoman has been proved to be lying many times when it was possible to check what she said.

In this case, she is giving her version of things, and she always includes, as if it were a fact, that her father definitely would have died without a transfusion and that he definitely lived because he had one.

She is also telling you what she saw in their faces and eyes, which cannot be taken as fact. In the first place, it is her interpretation, and in the second place, it could be pure invention for her purposes. She has never related any actual words spoken by either her mother or father about how they felt, especially afterward. She implies that it was never mentioned, as she says she does not know what either of her parents did or said after that.

She is shunned by faithful Witnesses in her family, and there has to be good reason for that. The hatred and lies she expresses toward Jehovah's Witnesses here no doubt carry over in her private life as well and repel others.

If a Witness simply chooses not to be a Witness any longer and does not actively oppose those who remain Witnesses, they can maintain good family relations. If they choose to be enemies of our religion, then that is a different matter.

Since: Sep 07

Bolingbrook, IL

#8 Nov 7, 2008
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG, that must have been so stressful to wittness [no pun intended]
did you grow up as a JW?
if not, can you reject JW and still be accepted by your family?
An old friend has recently become a JW and I am trying to learn about it. No tricks here.
I like RHW was also raised JW and just stopped when I was 18 not disfellowshipped nor disassociated either.
Your friend will no longer be your friend soon. JW's,once they totally convert and get baptized are not to have any friends outside of the JW org. They will only feign friendship, if and only if you are also willing to convert.
Once your friend realizes you will not convert, you will no longer be friends.
All cult use this same isolating technique.
Sorry, but this is the truth.

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#9 Nov 7, 2008
AuroraMom wrote:
<quoted text>
I like RHW was also raised JW and just stopped when I was 18 not disfellowshipped nor disassociated either.
Your friend will no longer be your friend soon. JW's,once they totally convert and get baptized are not to have any friends outside of the JW org. They will only feign friendship, if and only if you are also willing to convert.
Once your friend realizes you will not convert, you will no longer be friends.
All cult use this same isolating technique.
Sorry, but this is the truth.
Wow this is really sad stuff.
Why do they have to cut people off?
I thought there was an essence of peace and love at the centre of JW.
None of us will convert that is for sure, will they really turn him against his life long friends?
This person is already full of love for all of us, if he tries to cut us off won't he suffer?

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#10 Nov 7, 2008
I do not like posts that personally attack a persons position or call others names.
Of course she can only give her version of events, to do otherwise would be based on assumptions of how others think.

You can not dispute what someone sees in anothers eyes - it is relative and can not be transposed into a fact.
I have been told the only enemy of JW is satan. Now you say that dissatisfied JWs are your enemy?

This does not fit with any other readings I have done. Can you point to a place in your bible that outlines this 'fact'.
daftasabrush wrote:
<quoted text>
good, be careful about taking everything said here at face value. Redhorsewoman has been proved to be lying many times when it was possible to check what she said.
In this case, she is giving her version of things, and she always includes, as if it were a fact, that her father definitely would have died without a transfusion and that he definitely lived because he had one.
She is also telling you what she saw in their faces and eyes, which cannot be taken as fact. In the first place, it is her interpretation, and in the second place, it could be pure invention for her purposes. She has never related any actual words spoken by either her mother or father about how they felt, especially afterward. She implies that it was never mentioned, as she says she does not know what either of her parents did or said after that.
She is shunned by faithful Witnesses in her family, and there has to be good reason for that. The hatred and lies she expresses toward Jehovah's Witnesses here no doubt carry over in her private life as well and repel others.
If a Witness simply chooses not to be a Witness any longer and does not actively oppose those who remain Witnesses, they can maintain good family relations. If they choose to be enemies of our religion, then that is a different matter.

“Killing range: 1,350m”

Since: Oct 08

your backyard

#11 Nov 7, 2008
Thank you for your reply.
I am glad you were not rejected from your parents.
Do the others 'shun' you out of fear or does mixing with non-JWS make satan mad or something.
RedhorseWoman wrote:
<quoted text>
Stressful isn't quite the word for it. I saw my father lying on that bed looking, for all intents and purposes, like a living corpse. His skin was dead white and his lips were blue due to lack of blood. His blood would not clot, and he was, simply put, bleeding out while we stood there.
I was brought up as a JW, but I had become inactive at that point in time. Since I was neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated, there was no shunning that was specifically imposed upon me.
My mother was disappointed that I was no longer active, but we did maintain a relationship. My other relatives, however, who are still JWs, have cut me off and will not communicate with me.
Needless to say, I hope your friends wakes up and sees what a truly dangerous, deceptive, and distructive group the JWs are.

Since: May 08

Roseville, CA

#12 Nov 7, 2008
daftasabrush wrote:
<quoted text>
...If a Witness simply chooses not to be a Witness any longer and does not actively oppose those who remain Witnesses, they can maintain good family relations. If they choose to be enemies of our religion, then that is a different matter.
How do you define what an "enemy of your religion" is?

Is there a cut and dried definition, or is it subjective, where each person decides whether the religion is being "Attacked" or not by their friends or family members?

You have to know that some of what you guys believe is very difficult for most people to agree with.

I know very little about the JW's and I already have a list of things that would keep me from being a JW.

Am I an "enemy of your religion" because I don't agree with shunning, the blood issue, not celebrating holidays, etc.?

Since: Feb 07

RI

#13 Nov 7, 2008
mostly numb but good wrote:
Thank you for your reply.
I am glad you were not rejected from your parents.
Do the others 'shun' you out of fear or does mixing with non-JWS make satan mad or something.
<quoted text>
Out of fear? No, I don't believe so. It is simply that they are told that they should not associate with someone who has, in their estimation, rejected Jehovah (which is not the case at all.)

I do think, though, that the whole shunning of former members is a defensive reaction on the part of the WTS. If JWs were allowed to freely associate with those who have left the religion because of ideological disagreements, then they would be taking a chance that JWs might learn too much about their religion and also be inclined to walk away.

This, I believe, is one of the reasons why there is so much counsel about refraining from posting on discussion boards such as this....too much information....too many opportunities for JWs to see what really IS behind the curtain.

Since: Feb 07

RI

#14 Nov 7, 2008
scourge wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you define what an "enemy of your religion" is?
Is there a cut and dried definition, or is it subjective, where each person decides whether the religion is being "Attacked" or not by their friends or family members?
You have to know that some of what you guys believe is very difficult for most people to agree with.
I know very little about the JW's and I already have a list of things that would keep me from being a JW.
Am I an "enemy of your religion" because I don't agree with shunning, the blood issue, not celebrating holidays, etc.?
An "enemy" of the JW religion is anyone who has been associated with them long enough to know what the religion is all about, has rejected it, and then has the temerity to speak out about what they know.

You would not be considered an enemy at this point in time. You are still in what could be considered a malleable stage where, if they can persuade you strongly enough, you will avoid any ideas presented by former JWs and rely solely on the official party line to provide you with the "truth" about the religion.

You could still be indoctrinated and absorbed/assimilated as far as they are concerned.

“JWs are a satanic cult. ”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#15 Nov 7, 2008
daftasabrush wrote:
<quoted text>
good, be careful about taking everything said here at face value. Redhorsewoman has been proved to be lying many times when it was possible to check what she said.
In this case, she is giving her version of things, and she always includes, as if it were a fact, that her father definitely would have died without a transfusion and that he definitely lived because he had one.
She is also telling you what she saw in their faces and eyes, which cannot be taken as fact. In the first place, it is her interpretation, and in the second place, it could be pure invention for her purposes. She has never related any actual words spoken by either her mother or father about how they felt, especially afterward. She implies that it was never mentioned, as she says she does not know what either of her parents did or said after that.
She is shunned by faithful Witnesses in her family, and there has to be good reason for that. The hatred and lies she expresses toward Jehovah's Witnesses here no doubt carry over in her private life as well and repel others.
If a Witness simply chooses not to be a Witness any longer and does not actively oppose those who remain Witnesses, they can maintain good family relations. If they choose to be enemies of our religion, then that is a different matter.
This woman is a liar and a servant of SATAN.

She will type anything on here to put the cult of the Jehovah's Witnesses in a good light.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a NON-Christian, satanic cult which produces false prophecy, false doctrine, false scripture and is supported by servants of Satan.

This cult has twisted scripture and lied so many times, they have lost their way.

If you can close your eyes to lies and twisted scripture and defend a deluded religion, then, by all means, you should be a Jehovah's Witness.

If you have an ounce of integrity, you need to pass on this false religion.

“Tight lines”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#16 Nov 7, 2008
mostly numb but good wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow this is really sad stuff.
Why do they have to cut people off?
I thought there was an essence of peace and love at the centre of JW.
None of us will convert that is for sure, will they really turn him against his life long friends?
This person is already full of love for all of us, if he tries to cut us off won't he suffer?
Aurora is not being honest.
I have many non-witness friends.

Since: May 08

Roseville, CA

#17 Nov 7, 2008
RedhorseWoman wrote:
<quoted text>
An "enemy" of the JW religion is anyone who has been associated with them long enough to know what the religion is all about, has rejected it, and then has the temerity to speak out about what they know.
You would not be considered an enemy at this point in time. You are still in what could be considered a malleable stage where, if they can persuade you strongly enough, you will avoid any ideas presented by former JWs and rely solely on the official party line to provide you with the "truth" about the religion.
You could still be indoctrinated and absorbed/assimilated as far as they are concerned.
Um, no I can't. Just want to set the record straight on that.

LOL
perkypolly

Overland Park, KS

#18 Nov 7, 2008
scourge wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, no I can't. Just want to set the record straight on that.
LOL
I don't consider you an enemy, but you do seem to want to be taught by those who are avowed enemies.

Can you really not tell who are enemies of this religion?

Since: Feb 07

RI

#19 Nov 7, 2008
scourge wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, no I can't. Just want to set the record straight on that.
LOL
Well, YOU know that, but the JWs still have hope. As long as you listen to anything they say, they will remain convinced that Jehovah will soften your heart and cause you to become one of them.

Seriously....

“A mother's job is never done.”

Since: May 08

Maryville, TN

#20 Nov 7, 2008
AuroraMom wrote:
<quoted text>
I like RHW was also raised JW and just stopped when I was 18 not disfellowshipped nor disassociated either.
Your friend will no longer be your friend soon. JW's,once they totally convert and get baptized are not to have any friends outside of the JW org. They will only feign friendship, if and only if you are also willing to convert.
Once your friend realizes you will not convert, you will no longer be friends.
All cult use this same isolating technique.
Sorry, but this is the truth.
My best friend is a JW, she know i will not convert. She is not faking a relationship with me. Some of ya'll are way over the top.

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